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BCrosby

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Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #75 on: September 15, 2008, 08:22:52 PM »
How old would Shaw have been at the time?

JMorgan

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Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #76 on: September 15, 2008, 08:29:04 PM »
Tom P., what was the budget for the Leeds Myopia? 

Brad Tufts

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Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #77 on: September 15, 2008, 08:31:58 PM »
Tom W....that's the course in Wexler's second book, right?  It looked like a pretty good layout.

Tom P... I've always had trouble with the 18th green, b/c there just isn't a bailout.  I feel as though one is always hitting a middle iron to that green, which cants slightly away, leading to thick rough.  Unlike many other greens at Myopia, there is no room on the ground to help a ball on the green (come to think of it, only 9 and 15 are also like this).  The features on 7 at least allow you to land short, although it can be a crapshoot whether it releases, or whether it sticks.  #8 is what I was thinking of when i said it is advantageous to miss the green, as a chip from the left is easier than a 4-footer from the right.

I never had too much trouble with #17, although it is difficult to hold the fairway.  There is ample room to bounce a short iron in from the left, but I admit that it's a crapshoot, much like many other shots all the way around.

I agree that there are many half-par holes, and the nature of the tiny greens and ground game around them means that it's very tough to get under par and stay there, as the good, lucky shots tend to even out with the unlucky shots.

I haven't had the pleasure of Garden City (I stopped by to gaze over the course once from that short street that dead ends into the early/late holes), but I always saw from the pictures that it appeared to look alot like Myopia with a majority of lay-of-the-land holes interspersed with early methods of golf earthwork.
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #78 on: September 15, 2008, 08:37:50 PM »
How old would Shaw have been at the time?

When?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #79 on: September 15, 2008, 08:39:44 PM »

Tom W....that's the course in Wexler's second book, right?  It looked like a pretty good layout.


That's the one.

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #80 on: September 15, 2008, 08:42:44 PM »
BobC:

I don't know exactly how old Quincy Shaw was at that time (the clambake at Eastham when Jones, Quimet, Egan and Q.A. Shaw played together) but there's a wonderful photo of Bob Jones, Francis Quimet and Chandler Egan sitting on a bench together on the front porch of Myopia probably in 1923-24 (the time of that clambake at Eastham I mentioned above). Quincy Shaw looks to me to have been about 70 at that time.

I'm assuming Quincy Shaw was the father of Leverett Shaw, a great friend of my Dad's who was some kind of guy, I'll tell you. One of the neatest men I ever knew and a helluva player. I knew him at Seminole. Apparently he started out his young life by moving to New Orleans and marrying an Octaroon. When I knew him he lived on his massive orange grove plantation north of Palm Beach with premier lady golfer Robin Weiss (Curtis Cupper and winner of the US Mid-Amateur who is now married to a prominent Chicagoan and plays at Shoreacres). My stepmother always referred to Leverett Shaw affectionately and in public with him standing there as "The Love Muscle."   :o

There are some generational names attached to that club though. In the first decade of the 20th century Thomas G. Stevenson played at scratch for Myopia. At the time of the publication of Edward Weeks Myopia history book in 1975 his son, Tom Stevenson, was the president of Myopia and today his grandson, Tom Stevenson, is the president of Myopia.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 07:36:26 AM by TEPaul »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #81 on: September 15, 2008, 08:51:46 PM »
Thanks TEP. That answers it on Shaw.

I haven't followed this thread, but aside from having some similar lay on the ground looking greens and some similar bunker shaping, MH and GC are very different sorts of courses. MH is hilly. There is no equivalent to MH's 16th at GC.

More interesting than their physical resemblance (or lack thereof), I would think the better basis for comparison is that both ceased to be on championship rotas at about the same time.

Was that purely a distance issue? Logistics of crowds? GC would be a nightmare in that regard.

Bob

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #82 on: September 15, 2008, 08:55:20 PM »
Bob:

Read the post above again about Shaw's son Leverett.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #83 on: September 15, 2008, 08:56:17 PM »
Thanks TEP. That answers it on Shaw.

I haven't followed this thread, but aside from having some similar lay on the ground looking greens and some similar bunker shaping, MH and GC are very different sorts of courses. MH is hilly. There is no equivalent to MH's 16th at GC.

More interesting than their physical resemblance (or lack thereof), I would think the better basis for comparison is that both ceased to be on championship rotas at about the same time.

Was that purely a distance issue? Logistics of crowds? GC would be a nightmare in that regard.

Bob

QA Shaw was born in 1869 and died in 1960. He graduated from Harvard in 1891.

QAS had one surviving son Quincy Shaw II. Didn't his boy have some connection to Joshua Crane?
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 09:03:19 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #84 on: September 15, 2008, 09:12:56 PM »
"More interesting than their physical resemblance (or lack thereof), I would think the better basis for comparison is that both ceased to be on championship rotas at about the same time.
Was that purely a distance issue? Logistics of crowds? GC would be a nightmare in that regard."


Bob:

Leeds stepped down as the so-called "Captain of the Green" in 1918 but I believe he still had to do with the course. In the early years the tournaments were basically Leeds's call and the Myopia history book mentions that Leeds agreed to hold four US Opens between 1898 and 1908 but he did not think the CLUB was ready for a US Amateur because the clubhouse, and particularly the lockeroom was not satisfactory for that premier tournament at that time.

With the US Opens the size of the lockerroom did not concern Leeds as he erected a tent for the pros as he was the type of martinet who did not believe a professional golfer should be allowed in or even near the clubhouse.

There's a wonderful story of one pro remarking to another pro at one of those US Opens that he should take care not to hit his ball over one of the greens (apparently #18) as if it was too near the clubhouse Leeds might not even allow him to play his ball.

It was definitely another era back then, right Harvard Bob?

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #85 on: September 15, 2008, 09:19:52 PM »
There's a wonderful story in the Myopia history book about a bet made by Joshua Crane at Myopia about how far he could hit a few balls.

Giving a tournament and tournament cup back then was a really big deal, apparently. Herbert Leeds gave one in 1910 called the Silver Cleek (on which he laid various requirements) which survives in some form to this day and Joshua Crane gave a tournament and Cup back then at his club, Dedham, that still survives to this day. It's known as the Joshua Crane Cup.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #86 on: September 15, 2008, 09:23:11 PM »
I'd say both courses had their fair share of unique golf holes, which is why they were so highly respected. GCGC's #2 and old #12 were definitely unlike anything before them.

Crump was inspired by the old Home hole or Paddock hole at Myopia, HH Barker (who assisted Travis at GCGC) copied the old 12th at GCGC more than once and Macdonald copied the old 5th at GCGC on at least two occasions. Of all the holes at GCGC I'd like to see restored it would be the old 5th, which was one of the great short par-4s in golf.

One of the differences between GCGC and Myopia are the number of hands involved. GCGC has been touched by Emmet (and Findlay), Travis (and Barker), Tillinghast, Colt, Emmet round 2, RTJ and now Doak.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 09:28:58 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #87 on: September 15, 2008, 09:28:52 PM »
Tom MacWood,

What did Tillinghast and Colt do at Garden City?   Anything of significance?

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #88 on: September 15, 2008, 09:29:31 PM »
BradT:

I can tell you from experience that there is definitely no ground in front of #13 where you can land the ball to get it onto the green. Matter of fact, coming into that green with a wedge you really need to take care with your spin because if it hits the first quarter of the green it's probably coming way back down the hill.

Last year I hit one up there and I said to my partner and our caddy: "That looks OK to me." and they said I had to wait at least five seconds to tell. Sure enough, after about four seconds here comes the ball rolling back off the green, down that sloping fairway area and into that bunker about 25 yards short of and way below the green. ;)

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #89 on: September 15, 2008, 09:30:18 PM »
Yes. Tilly redesigned the first hole, which is one of the most interesting first holes I've run across, and Colt advised on the bunkering.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 09:34:15 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #90 on: September 15, 2008, 09:39:40 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Yes, the first hole is certainly a classic.   Old drawings and pics I've seen show a similar type of hole, but I'm certainly not an expert on it.   

Did he "modernize" it, or lengthen it, or reconfigure the green?

JMorgan

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Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #91 on: September 15, 2008, 09:40:11 PM »
Could one of today's architects build another Garden City for around $100k? 

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #92 on: September 15, 2008, 09:40:20 PM »
It should be noted that Myopia after Leeds got fairly treed up and a number of his bunkers and such were obsoleted. Actually, it sounds like that was inspired by another old friend of my Dad's, Robert "Bobby" Knowles, another real character and quite a player.

I am not completely sure of the nature of Myopia's recent restoration---I think it was basically in-house but they've done quite a job returning that course to what it apparently was in Leeds's glory days.

Leeds, like Oakmont's Fownes was apparently a real maniac on insisting on very fast greens for his era. Myopia's greens were apparently pretty famous that way. The club administration today seems to want to get back to that, and F&F throughout.

It's wonder stuff really, in my book.

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #93 on: September 15, 2008, 09:43:49 PM »
"Could one of today's architects build another Garden City for around $100k?"

Of course not---not even close. The irrigation system would be at least ten times that amount.

« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 10:04:59 PM by TEPaul »

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #94 on: September 15, 2008, 09:48:37 PM »
"Could one of today's architects build another Garden City for around $100k?"

Of course not---not even close. The irrigation system would be at least ten times that amount.



Why not?  Water pipe for the course was roughly $400 in 1899.  Labor, about $2k.  What's that in today's dollars?   

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #95 on: September 15, 2008, 09:49:46 PM »
Interesting about Shaw. He was Crane's exact contemporary. They were born the same year, they graduated from Harvard one year apart. Crane died four years after Shaw in 1964.

Crane had three sons and three daughters, but I don't know of any connection between any of them and Shaw's children.

Because these guys were all aristocrats, accounts of their golf matches show up in a lot of newspapers. Crane, Leeds, Behr and others come and go in these articles.

In addition to the cups mentioned above, Crane also gave a cup to Carnoustie for local amateur competitions. It's called.... yep, The Crane Cup.

Bob

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #96 on: September 15, 2008, 09:53:03 PM »
"Could one of today's architects build another Garden City for around $100k?"

Of course not---not even close.

The irrigation system would be at least ten times that amount.



JMorgan,

For once, TEPaul is correct.

Then again, a stopped clock is also right twice a day.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #97 on: September 15, 2008, 09:54:11 PM »
Why would you want to water it?   ;D

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #98 on: September 15, 2008, 09:55:37 PM »
Tom MacWood,

Yes, the first hole is certainly a classic.   Old drawings and pics I've seen show a similar type of hole, but I'm certainly not an expert on it.   

Did he "modernize" it, or lengthen it, or reconfigure the green?

He altered the bunkering in the fairway and around the green, re-orienting the play to the right off the tee, a longish carry over the waste area. He removed the crossbunker that guarded the front of the green giving an advantage to those who chose the bold route to the right.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #99 on: September 15, 2008, 09:57:37 PM »
Thanks, Tom...it's a great hole.