Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt

[TEPaul]

Neil:

Thank you for that from a British golf collectors society magazine. Of course it helps, it certainly helps me (and I'll pass it on to Myopia if they aren't aware of it). That happens to be the first actual mention in print I've ever seen that Campbell had anything at all to do with the architecture of Myopia Hunt Club.

Mr. MacWood apparently keeps maintaining that Campbell laid out the ORIGINAL nine at Myopia in the spring of 1894. It looks to me like that nine was already laid out by clubmembers Appleton, Merrill and Gardner before Campbell first arrived in this country on 3/31/1894.

I realize without having a real familiarity with the site of Myopia Hunt Club it is pretty hard to figure out how these various holes played out from the original nine in 1894 to the next iteration of Leeds's "Long Nine" beginning in 1896, and on which the 1898 US Open was played and then the next iteration which was 18 holes and in play in 1900 and on which the next three Myopia US Opens were played, and which is the course today; but nevertheless here goes an explanation of the first two iterations as I understand them and apparently the Myopia history understands them as well:

The most important thing to note here is that the ORIIGINAL nine of 1894 was not really the same as the so-called "Long Nine" that Leeds was given the responsibility of creating when he came from TCC to Myopia in 1896. Perhaps one hole was almost idenitical to what is still there now (#9) but another five of them (#1, #8, an iteration of today's #10 tee and #11 green, #12 and #13 while in mostly in the same place were either not of the length or the exact direction of or their greens were probably not in the same places as holes that would become the Leeds's "Long Nine." It seems to me that three remaining three holes of that ORIGINAL 1894 nine are completely unaccounted for as to what they were and their whereabouts as the Myopia history book claims the "uphill" three holes (#14, #15, #16) that would become the last three holes of Leeds's 1896 "Long Nine" were not in play until the Long Nine was created in 1896 and the Myopia history book mentions that the whereabouts of some holes of the ORIGINAL nine is a matter of speculation. It also mentions that some hole of the ORIGINAL 1894 nine were on Dr. Hopkin's place and the fact is that no holes of Leeds's 1896 "Long Nine" were on the land that was Dr. Hopkins' place.

I'm just trying to get to the bottom of these evolutionary iterations from the original 1894 nine to Leeds's "Long Nine" and then to Leeds's 18 hole course that again came into play in the spring of 1900 and is today's course.

If Edward Weeks's Myopia history book is wrong about some things to do with this architectural evolution then it just is but to date I just don't see how it is.

Again, Neil, thank you very much for that article from a British golf collector's society, it's helpful and you are very cooperative as a few others have been recently although one most certainly is not. If he has something in print about Campbell and Myopia he should put it on here as others have and cut out this months long stonewalling of it via this ridiculous "PLEDGE" of his not to share anything with me or anyone from any club I know. I really can't understand what his charade is all about but to me and others, including the clubs I know who read this website, it's really petty and immature  and certainly not in the spirit of cooperation which this website has always been about.

When I talk to Myopia I'll be sure to tell them that a bit of written material on Campbell and the course in 1896 emanated from you and out of Australia. I think they'll like that. Thanks very much.

[TEPaul]

The article from a British collector's society magazine supplied by Neil Crafter today mentions that Campbell left Myopia in 1896 after spending that single year there and moved to Boston. This is when he laid out and helped establish Franklin Park golf course in Boston which just might be the first substantial PUBLIC golf course in America. Campbell died in 1900 while at Franklin Park and his wife Georgina who joined Campbell a few years after he arrived in America and survived him by over fifty years remained at Franklin Park for many many years working at the course and teaching golf. In that roll Georgina very well may've effectively been the first woman professional golfer in American history. Matter of fact, our LPGA might consider looking at her as their patron saint.

[TEPaul]

I realize that most who are not really familiar with the site and layout of the present Myopia (all 18 holes being opened for play in 1900) will have a hard time understanding this but anyway; I'm going to try to recreate what the holes and the sequencing might have been of the original 1894 nine laid out in the early spring of 1894 by club-members Appleton, Merrill and Gardner and compared to the so-called Leeds "Long Nine" that followed it two years later in 1896 and on which the US Open was played in 1898. (I'll describe the holes and sequencing of Leeds's 1896 "Long Nine" later).

The attempted description of this original 1894 nine by Myopia history writer, Edward Weeks, is somewhat confusing for reasons which you will see below, but at least he did say in his book about this original 1894 nine which was obviously changed two year later; "The actual layout is a matter of speculation, because the uphill holes were not completed for another two years." (1896) He also says; “We know that this improvised links was on the ground of the Club and those of our fellow member, Dr. S. A. Hopkins, to the north and east of the Clubhouse.”

The uphill holes he refers to are #14, #15 and #16 on today's 18-hole course and numbers #7, #8, #9 on Leeds's 1896 "Long Nine."

The property Weeks refers to of fellow member, Dr. Hopkins, took in land then (51 acres) that begun near where today’s 4th tee is and runs diagonally all the way to a point to the left and behind today’s 6th green and probably includes all of today’s 4th through 7th holes. 

The first hole of the 1894 nine was today’s second hole but it was about 160 yards shorter with tees lower on the ridge and perhaps a green slightly to the left and short of today’s second green.

But then Weeks describes the second hole as today’s 8th, the third as today’s 9th, the fourth, the “Alps” hole, from a tee near today’s 10th tee to the 11th green. The fifth is today’s 12th to a green short of today’s 12th green and from there the shot over the pond that is to the left of today’s 13th (and not visible in the woods) to a green on the ridge somewhere near today’s 13th green.

If it is true that the “uphill” holes (today’s #14, #15, #16) were not built until 1896, then Weeks probably has his sequencing wrong on this original 1894 nine. That’s probably understandable because he has only described six holes and he does admit that some holes were on Dr. Hopkins’ land but what they were and where they were is only speculation.

I would suggest, that instead of the original nine going to the present 8th hole from today’s 2nd which was then the first, that three more holes probably went from today’s #2 down perhaps #4 fairway, then perhaps up on the ridge between today’s #6 and #7 and then back down what is today’s #7 where the sequence would pick up at today’s 8th and follow the holes Weeks described above to end the nine at today’s 13th green right next to what was then the 1st tee (today’s 2nd tee).

To me that would make sense and it would also incorporate what Weeks said about the “uphill” holes not being built until 1896 as well as the fact that some of the holes of the original 1894 nine were on some land of Dr. Hopkins.

I’m sure all that makes no sense to anyone other than those really familiar with the land and with Myopia 18 hole course.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

Unfortunately, I haven't been to Myopia, but I would just touch on something you posted earlier.

The Shipping Manifest I found for Willie Campbell (occupation - Golf Clubmaker) has him arriving in Boston on March 31, 1894.   He departed from Glasgow.

Bottom Line...if the original nine was laid out 3 months prior to opening it would have been impossible for Willie Campbell to have done it.   

The doesn't rule out that he might have helped them with some construction or features or even agronomic things (what little was known at the time) before opening, but I've seen no proof of that and it's pure speculation on my part.

[Thomas MacWood]

Bottom Line...if the original nine was laid out 3 months prior to opening it would have been impossible for Willie Campbell to have done it.   

Mike
Impossible? Typically how long did it take to lay out a 9-hole course in 1894?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

I said..if the course took three months to get ready, as the accounts suggest, then it would be mathematically impossible for Campbell to have laid out the course, because it opened in early June and he didn't arrive in town til essentially April.

I'm simply stating the obvious mathematics.

I'd also be curious to know the date of the Boston Globe article you cite that implies that Campbell designed the original course.

Certainly one that claimed he was being used before the course was laid out would have more validity than one that suggested he did after the fact.

I say that simply because it's clear that The Country Club brought him over to be their pro, and given the close nature of the clubs, it seems pretty likely that he would have come over to see what was going on at Myopia if they were already in the process of building a golf course.   He may have even offered advice...that seems logical.

The germane question is simply whether Myopia actually brought Campbell over to lay out their course before anything else existed.    If you tell me you can prove that, and give me the date, I'll be happy to pay the money for yet another newspaper archive subscription and give you the credit.

Otherwise, I'd consider it probably a news account that likely didn't know the whole story and was probably a puff piece maximizing the involvement of the "new Scottish expert" in town.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

One other thing I'm thinking about...and I mean this question in all sincerity.

You just raised the point that a Willie Campbell, of Musselburgh, laid out courses probably in a matter of a few hours.

He grew up on the links, and now was for his first time in Massachusetts, on inland soil.

What great golfing knowledge would have have been able to impart that was so unique and unknown by others in the states who had already either been overseas and played golf, or men like Appleton who were so interested in the game as to build courses on their own estates?

I guess my question is...how was Campbell a golf architecture "expert" at this time?   What had he done architecturally prior to his arrival?   What do you think were his qualifications that could lead him to lay out a course in an afternoon?

I know very little about Myopia...I have never been there unfortunately...and if Campbell did it, he did it, and I think the membership should have that information.   However, I'm just really trying to stay objective here and I guess I'm asking you to tell us more about what you've been claiming because this does all get a bit silly in a world with much larger problems.

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike
You don't how long it typically took to lay out a course in 1894? IMO you can not evaluate what happened at Myopia without knowing the period. It also appears you and particularly TE are analyzing Myopia in vacuum. You will never understand what happened at Myopia in 1894 without knowing what was going on at The Country Club, Essex County, Nahant and Pride's Crossing.

Instead of making declerations that this or that was impossible based upon very limited information I would think it would better to establish these facts:

1. How much time typically was needed to lay out a course in 1894

2. On what date did Myopia meet and agree to build a golf cource

3. When was the course laid out

4. When did Myopia open for play

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom,

One other thing I'm thinking about...and I mean this question in all sincerity.

You just raised the point that a Willie Campbell, of Musselburgh, laid out courses probably in a matter of a few hours.

He grew up on the links, and now was for his first time in Massachusetts, on inland soil.

What great golfing knowledge would have have been able to impart that was so unique and unknown by others in the states who had already either been overseas and played golf, or men like Appleton who were so interested in the game as to build courses on their own estates?

I guess my question is...how was Campbell a golf architecture "expert" at this time?   What had he done architecturally prior to his arrival?   What do you think were his qualifications that could lead him to lay out a course in an afternoon?

I know very little about Myopia...I have never been there unfortunately...and if Campbell did it, he did it, and I think the membership should have that information.   However, I'm just really trying to stay objective here and I guess I'm asking you to tell us more about what you've been claiming because this does all get a bit silly in a world with much larger problems.

Have you read my last IMO essay?

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike
You don't how long it typically took to lay out a course in 1894? IMO you can not evaluate what happened at Myopia without knowing the period. It also appears you and particularly TE are analyzing Myopia in vacuum. You will never understand what happened at Myopia in 1894 without knowing what was going on at The Country Club, Essex County, Nahant and Pride's Crossing.

Instead of making declerations that this or that was impossible based upon very limited information I would think it would better to establish these facts:

1. How much time typically was needed to lay out a course in 1894

2. On what date did Myopia meet and agree to build a golf cource

3. When was the course laid out

4. When did Myopia open for play

Tom,

I've been watching this volleyball travel back and forth for the past several months and I'm trying to objectively help get this thing moving forward.

Shit, if we can't do this together, is it any wonder that Washington is posturing while Rome burns?

Yes, I've read your last IMO piece.

Here's what I think about the Willie Campbell section, which I'll quote the relevant portions below;

Campbell was engaged as professional at Prestwick (1887-88), Ranfurly Castle (1889-91) and North Berwick (1892-94). His first architectural involvement appears to be at Ranfurly Castle in 1889, where he designed their nine-hole course. In 1891 he laid out the wild links at Machirie on Islay, considered a cult classic today. That same year he designed Cowal, Rothesay and Kilmacolm in western Scotland, and in 1893 the first nine at Seascale.

Campbell suffered from a rheumatic condition and immigrated to America in 1894 - setting up shop in Boston. 1894 was a critical year for golf in Boston, and the United States. There were four major projects that year – the expansion of Brookline, the laying out of the first nines at Essex County, Quincy (Wollaston) and Myopia Hunt. Campbell was responsible for all four. Considering the importance of those courses, particularly Brookline and Myopia, its surprising he hasn’t received more recognition.

In reading this, my impression is that the powers-that-be at Brookline, and later at Myopia, et.al., were mostly concerned with Campbell's role as the former professional at Prestwick and North Berwick, which were two courses that likely a number of members at each of the American courses had played.

As far as his architectural pedigree at that time, you seem uncertain.   You mention that it "appears this his first architectural involvement appears to be Ranfuly Castle in 1889...", but then also go on to mention Machrie, Cowal, Rothesay, and Kimacolm as having been done before his emigration to America.

Frankly Tom, if any American had ever seen, played, or even heard of any of those courses by 1894 I'd be shocked!

There is no question that he was brought here for his clubmaking and teaching skills, and I'm sure he mentioned that he also laid out links, but he would truly not have a cross-Atlantic reputation for the latter skills at that time.

Now, I do understand that there was a certain naivete among many fledging US golfers at that time who believed any Scottish professional knew everything there was to know about the game, but I'm not sure the originators of The Country Club and Myopia fell into that wide-eyed category.

You ask me when Myopia was laid out and when it opened, and I only know what you and Tom Paul have presented.

You seem unwilling to provide any other information beyond what you have to date, and I have to say that from a very dispassionate position here, I'm not sure why anyone would believe that Campbell designed the first nine at Myopia.

Certainly, the evidence to date doesn't support that, although you may know some things that would prove your case.

I just wish it wasn't like pulling teeth.   

Have you ever seen me withhold any architectural historical information for personal reasons?

Hell...I'd rather see these things see the light of day before any of us who really give a damn about these things are long dead and buried.

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike
You don't how long it typically took to lay out a course in 1894? IMO you can not evaluate what happened at Myopia without knowing the period. It also appears you and particularly TE are analyzing Myopia in vacuum. You will never understand what happened at Myopia in 1894 without knowing what was going on at The Country Club, Essex County, Nahant and Pride's Crossing.

Instead of making declerations that this or that was impossible based upon very limited information I would think it would better to establish these facts:

1. How much time typically was needed to lay out a course in 1894

2. On what date did Myopia meet and agree to build a golf cource

3. When was the course laid out

4. When did Myopia open for play

Tom,

I've been watching this volleyball travel back and forth for the past several months and I'm trying to objectively help get this thing moving forward.

Shit, if we can't do this together, is it any wonder that Washington is posturing while Rome burns?

Yes, I've read your last IMO piece.

Here's what I think about the Willie Campbell section, which I'll quote the relevant portions below;

Campbell was engaged as professional at Prestwick (1887-88), Ranfurly Castle (1889-91) and North Berwick (1892-94). His first architectural involvement appears to be at Ranfurly Castle in 1889, where he designed their nine-hole course. In 1891 he laid out the wild links at Machirie on Islay, considered a cult classic today. That same year he designed Cowal, Rothesay and Kilmacolm in western Scotland, and in 1893 the first nine at Seascale.

Campbell suffered from a rheumatic condition and immigrated to America in 1894 - setting up shop in Boston. 1894 was a critical year for golf in Boston, and the United States. There were four major projects that year – the expansion of Brookline, the laying out of the first nines at Essex County, Quincy (Wollaston) and Myopia Hunt. Campbell was responsible for all four. Considering the importance of those courses, particularly Brookline and Myopia, its surprising he hasn’t received more recognition.

In reading this, my impression is that the powers-that-be at Brookline, and later at Myopia, et.al., were mostly concerned with Campbell's role as the former professional at Prestwick and North Berwick, which were two courses that likely a number of members at each of the American courses had played.

Two courses a number of members at each American courses had played? You would be lucky to find one or two Bostonians in 1894 who had played those courses. You are projecting 1910-1920 on 1894.

As far as his architectural pedigree at that time, you seem uncertain.   You mention that it "appears this his first architectural involvement appears to be Ranfuly Castle in 1889...", but then also go on to mention Machrie, Cowal, Rothesay, and Kimacolm as having been done before his emigration to America.

The question was not if he was involved at Ranfurly Castle but rather if it was his first design.

Frankly Tom, if any American had ever seen, played, or even heard of any of those courses by 1894 I'd be shocked!

Do you think Americans concerned themselves with a professional's design resume in 1894? A professional golfer from Scotland was an expert in golf and everything related to golf. Willie Campbell was at the top of his field.

There is no question that he was brought here for his clubmaking and teaching skills, and I'm sure he mentioned that he also laid out links, but he would truly not have a cross-Atlantic reputation for the latter skills at that time.

I agree. Golf was virtually unknown in America. A very small number had been exposed to the game. A small group in Boston wanted to bring the game to Boston. Who better to teach the game, make clubs & balls and help establish and maintain new golf courses than Campbell.

Now, I do understand that there was a certain naivete among many fledging US golfers at that time who believed any Scottish professional knew everything there was to know about the game, but I'm not sure the originators of The Country Club and Myopia fell into that wide-eyed category.

Bringing over agruably the top professional golfer in Scotland is naive?

You ask me when Myopia was laid out and when it opened, and I only know what you and Tom Paul have presented.

You seem unwilling to provide any other information beyond what you have to date, and I have to say that from a very dispassionate position here, I'm not sure why anyone would believe that Campbell designed the first nine at Myopia.

I told you when Campbell came over. You confirmed it. I told you Campbell was the pro at Myopia in 1896. You confirmed it. I've told you where you will find documentation he laid out the course. Has TE provided any contemporaneous info regarding the involvement of Appleton & Co? It appears to me you are operating under a double standard.

Based upon our track records in research over the years and based upon the accuracy of our historical findings over the years...why would you take his unsupported claims over mine?

Certainly, the evidence to date doesn't support that, although you may know some things that would prove your case.

I just wish it wasn't like pulling teeth. 

Would you co-operate with someone who has personally attacked you and insulted you over a period of years?  

Have you ever seen me withhold any architectural historical information for personal reasons?

I'm not sure the situations are comparable. Have you been personally attacked for writing an essay? Not the essay being attacked, but you personally being attacked because you plan on writing it. You've been around on GCA for several years. How many years has TE been calling me a f***ing fraud or something similar? How many essays have I written during this period? Is he able to attack the contents of my essays? No, but the he is "dangerous to architectural history" matra continues. Why should I cooperate with someone like that, especially when he incapable of finding the information on his own and will take the information to the source and say, 'look what I found.'

Hell...I'd rather see these things see the light of day before any of us who really give a damn about these things are long dead and buried.

I've given you the facts and told you where you can find it. I have every confidence someone will find it eventually. Its not that difficult.

[Mike_Cirba]

Ok Tom...sorry you feel that way. 

I don't feel like debating each point with you.   If I happen to get motivated and find the article in question and I reach the same conclusion as you I'll be sure you get credit for originally unearthing this information.

[Thomas MacWood]

Campbell deserves the credit not me.

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba

The irony of the posts between you and Mr. MacWood this morning is remarkable.

Why Campbell could not have laid out the original nine of Myopia in 1894 is really obvious and the irony is it's right here in this thread (and the last few posts of the Myopia and Eastward Ho! thread) but it seems to have been missed, certainly by Mr. MacWood.

I don't really feel like going back through all the details of the Edward Weeks book again but if one just bothers to read from about post #209 or so through post #218, and the last few posts of the Myopia and Eastward Ho! thread one can see it pretty clearly (except Mr. MacWood apparently).

On one of these threads I explained to Mr. MacWood exactly how I do an analysis of something like a club history book, and how I look for quotations and then search for the document the history writer was quoting from.

I also said in one of these posts that it looks to me like Mr. MacWood has finally gotten his hands on Weeks's history book and that I thought that was a very good thing because at least now we have some commonality from which to discuss this instead of me just supplying him with the information in that book as I've been doing for probably over a month now (almost all of which he just dismisses as to its accuracy, I might add ).

Now, here’s the real irony with Mr. MacWood and this entire Myopia and Campbell thing in 1894. Apparently just having gotten his hands on Weeks’s history book he actually quoted from it in post #64 of the Myopia and Eastward Ho! thread.  Underneath this quotation in post #64 he asked me to explain to him how that quotation could mean it was impossible for Campbell to have laid out that original nine in 1894. I answered him by referring him back to post #212 on this thread. He then obviously went back and read post #212 and his response to it is his post #213.

Just look at his post #213. He asks me where I come up with this STUFF? “Stuff like it took three months between the laying out of the course and putting it into play on June 1, 1894. Then he says in post #213 that that is all just a red herring from Weeks who published this history book in 1975.

Go back again and look at his post #64 in the Myopia and Eastward Ho! thread and look at who he attributes that quotation to. He attributes it to Edward Weeks the man who published the history book in 1975. Apparently, Tom MacWood is either just a pretty bad historical researcher or analyst or he did not read or even notice that quotation is not Weeks, it is from S. Dacre Bush, the man who was the Secretary of Myopia Hunt Club in 1894 and the man who was recording the events of that time contemporaneously in 1894. In my opinion, that is about as good as source material can get, and Mr. MacWood completely missed that and thought it was Weeks eighty one years later creating some kind of red herring.

Need I really say more, Michael X. Cirba, Researcher and Architectural Analyst SUPREME?

These are the types of little things, the little misinterpretations that can take somebody WAY down the wrong road in trying to analyze golf architectural history from over a century ago. This is the wrong road MacWood took----he didn’t even realize it and when he reads this I have no doubt he will find some way to deny it, dismiss it, ignore it or rationalize it away, but anyone who really takes the time to analyze all this cannot help but understand there is just no way he can do this anymore on this subject of Campbell laying out Myopia in 1894. As the history book says the original nine was laid out by Appleton, Merrill and Gardner and we have now positively established that that was done before Willie Campbell even arrived in America! The three months and the opening of the course for play in three months in June 1, 1894 is the truth (even though Mr. MacWood may not even be capable of taking a date, June 1, 1894, then backing that up three months and getting to about the beginning of March 1894 and then figuring out that Campbell wouldn't even get to America for about another month  ) and it comes from the man who recorded the actuall events AT THE TIME FOR THE CLUB ITSELF and not some indirect newspaper reporter from a newspaper (The Boston Globe) that has pretty much always been considered a ‘rag” in Boston! Add to that a poor analyst like Tom MacWood and you just get confusion, inaccuracy and historic revisionism of the architecture of an important course.

[Thomas MacWood]

Jay:

Myopia's history explains that 'When the snows melted in the spring of 1894, club members Appleton, Merrill and Gardner footed it over the CLUB acres, spotting the tees and pacing off the distance to provisional greens, probably marking them with pegs. Appleton and his partners reported to the executive committee that the nine could be made ready for play in three months....."nine greens were sodded and cut, and play began about June 1st, 1894."

On what date did the snow melt and on what date did Appleton & Co report to the executive committee?

Was the three month timeframe an estimation or something etched in stone? Would it have been possible for the 9-hole course to have been built in something less or more than three months?

On what date did construction begin?

On what date did play begin?

Why do you think Weeks is so vague with his dates...the committee met in March....Appleton & Co. went over the site when the snow melted....the course opend for play around June1?

The first tournament was held on June 18, 1894. There were twenty five entries and Herbert Leeds of Boston who was scratch won it.

This appears to be the only date of which Weeks is certain.

If it is true that the course was made ready for play in three months and play began about June 1st, 1894, then logically the timeline would indicate those three members probably laid out the course to be made ready for play in three months at some point just before March 1894.

The three month timeframe was an estimate, an estimate given by men with very limited experience. As a comparison how long did it take Campbell lay out other courses around Boston in 1894? Where did you come up with some point before March?

Again, one considering these events at this time by someone like recently appointed Master of the Hunt, R.M. Appleton, should keep in mind that Appleton actually had his own golf course on his own estate, the 1,000 acre Appleton Farm, in nearby Ipswich for up to two years previous to him proposing golf at Myopia and laying out its first nine with two of his member friends. I think Edward Weeks makes an excellent point that given golf was viewed with suspicion and apparently contempt by the riding, hunting and polo interests at Myopia Hunt Club that Appleton was probably not just the best one but perhaps the only one who could actually get away with proposing golf because he was also the Master of the Hunt!

Very interesting conjecture. Do you have any contemporaneous reports of Appleton & Co involvement in laying out Myopia?  I haven't found any, but I have found reports that Campbell laid out Myopia. (By the way, there was more than one newspaper in Boston in 1894)

Do you have any contemporaneous reports about Appleton's private course? Was it a formalized course or was it lets put a flag over by that tree? How many holes? Are you sure Weeks was not confusing Washington Thomas's private course in that neighbrhood with Appleton? The 1901 golf guide lists about a dozen private courses in Massachusetts and there is no Appleton course in Ipswich listed.

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

There are just far too many really stupid questions in that last post. This charade of yours has gone on long enough, the rest of us have better things to do. It's also not my interest to have to educate you on this everyday. My only interest here is to point out to others just how illogical the things you are maintaining are.

I think you can do the math yourself about what three months means, when the course was laid out and the fact Campbell wasn't even in this country. Do you really need me to help you figure out how to count to three with this material? 

And it sure would help if you could figure out whether text in the Myopia history book is from Weeks himself or from S. Dacre Bush, the Secretary of Myopia Hunt at that time in 1894 when Weeks quotes him. You do have some idea what quotation marks indicate in a club history book, don't you? Or did you think they were just the authors own words because he just felt those little "....." looked kind of decorative or whatever around one of his own sentences?   

Yes, R.M Appleton had a six hole course on his own estate beginning in 1892 and as such was probably one of the few people who had laid out and maintained a golf course at that time. I doubt you've spent a single minute on land trying to layout a routing and course so you probably have no idea what it's about. You should try it sometime and this stuff might be a whole lot easier to understand, particularly what they were doing back in the 1890s

R.M Appleton was the Master of the Hunt beginning in 1892. Perhaps you don't know what the Master of the Hunt is all about at a hunt club, Mr. MacWood but I certainly do.

Appleton not only introduced golf to Myopia he also introduced it to Palmetto in Aiken SC. Aiken was and is a southern winter horse center for those kinds of people.

I think what you probably need to do now, Mr. MacWood, is take that Boston Globe article, you steadfastly refuse to produce on here, if that's what it really is, and just shitcan it because it's wrong and has been proven wrong if it actually says Campbell laid out that course in 1894 instead of Appleton, Merrill and Gardner. It is you, I'm afraid, who needs to start from scratch analyzing the architectural history of Myopia Hunt Club and definitely not the club, as you so arrogantly suggested on here.   

[Thomas MacWood]

Mr. MacWood:

There are just far too many really stupid questions in that last post. This charade of yours has gone on long enough, the rest of us have better things to do. It's also not my interest to have to educate you on this everyday. My only interest here is to point out to others just how illogical the things you are maintaining are.

Clearly you don't have any contemporaneous information, because it is clear you are not capable of finding it on your own. You don't have any comeporaneous reports that Appleton laid out the course. You don't have the date the committee first met; you don't have the date the snow melted when Appleton & Co supposedly inspected the site; you don't have the date when they reported back to the committee; you don't have the date the course was laid out; you don't have the date when construction began; you don't have the date when the course opened for play. The only dates you have are March 31, 1894 and June 18, 1894. You have no idea how long it took to layout a nine hole golf course in 1894. But yet you can guarantee us that Campbell could not have laid out the course.

I think you can do the math yourself about what three months means, when the course was laid out and the fact Campbell wasn't even in this country. Do you really need me to help you figure out how to count to three with this material? 

This has nothing to do with math and everything to do with common sense. The date they supposedly told the committee it would take three months is unknown; the date construction began is unknown; the date the course opened is unknown. How do you do the math from an unkown date to unknown date? And what is the signigficance of the three months period?  Is this something locked in stone? If it took less than three months or longer than three months would Appleton & Co have turned into a pumpkin. Your three months is a smoke screen.

And it sure would help if you could figure out whether text in the Myopia history book is from Weeks himself or from S. Dacre Bush, the Secretary of Myopia Hunt at that time in 1894 when Weeks quotes him. You do have some idea what quotation marks indicate in a club history book, don't you? Or did you think they were just the authors own words because he just felt those little "....." looked kind of decorative or whatever around one of his own sentences?   

Its Weeks' book....I don't care who he quoted, the bottom line is he didn't have the dates of the most significant events in 1894 (see the list above). He had no idea Campbell was the pro at Myopia. He has no idea when or where Leeds traveled abroad. He has no clue about the original nine and how it evolved. Don't you agree the book is seriously flawed.

Yes, R.M Appleton had a six hole course on his own estate beginning in 1892 and as such was probably one of the few people who had laid out and maintained a golf course at that time. I doubt you've spent a single minute on land trying to layout a routing and course so you probably have no idea what it's about. You should try it sometime and this stuff might be a whole lot easier to understand, particularly what they were doing back in the 1890s

Have you found any contemporaneous mention of this course?

R.M Appleton was the Master of the Hunt beginning in 1892. Perhaps you don't know what the Master of the Hunt is all about at a hunt club, Mr. MacWood but I certainly do.

Just a wild guess but would it have something to do with foxes, hounds, horses, redcoats and horn blowing?

Appleton not only introduced golf to Myopia he also introduced it to Palmetto in Aiken SC. Aiken was and is a southern winter horse center for those kinds of people.

He did? I thought Thomas Hitchcock of the Meadowbrook Club founded the hunting colony at Aiken in 1892 and the golf club was founded in 1895. For some reason Leeds designed the golf course not Appleton. Too busy tending to the hounds? I have found a Frances Appleton of NY was a regular participant in golf events at Palmetto.

I think what you probably need to do now, Mr. MacWood, is take that Boston Globe article, you steadfastly refuse to produce on here, if that's what it really is, and just shitcan it because it's wrong and has been proven wrong if it actually says Campbell laid out that course in 1894 instead of Appleton, Merrill and Gardner. It is you, I'm afraid, who needs to start from scratch analyzing the architectural history of Myopia Hunt Club and definitely not the club, as you so arrogantly suggested on here.   

Don't worry, just like Campbell's ship manifest and the info about Campbell being the pro at Myopia, the newspaper reports of Campbell laying out Myopia are really not that hard to find, and I am quite confident someone will dig it up and hand it to you. At that point you can go to Myopia and say 'look what I found', the club will correct their history and all will be well. By the way there was more than one newspaper in Boston in 1894.

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

I've seen the 1894 Myopia Club record by Board secretary S. Dacre Bush. The original nine was laid out before Campbell arrived in America. Play began around June 1, 1894. The three months is accurate not the least reason being S. Dacre Bush's recorded those events in 1894, including the first two tournaments both of which Leeds won just after all those facts of 1894.

If you want to dismiss those kinds of contemporaneous board records of golf clubs such as Merion and Myopia and exaggerate some peripheral people who were not even part of these projects when they began that's just fine but I guarantee you noone takes that seriously.

Keep searching and maybe someday you may find your way to Myopia or Merion and figure all this out from their archives although I doubt it.

[TEPaul]

"Its Weeks' book....I don't care who he quoted, the bottom line is he didn't have the dates of the most significant events in 1894 (see the list above). He had no idea Campbell was the pro at Myopia. He has no idea when or where Leeds traveled abroad. He has no clue about the original nine and how it evolved. Don't you agree the book is seriously flawed."

Mr. MacWood:

No I do not.

Perhaps you think if Weeks did not include something in his book that means he got it wrong!?! That might be the most bizarre thing you've said to date. All it means is he didn't include every single thing in Myopia's 100 year history in his book, including everything Leeds recorded in his diary and everywhere he went.   

Week's wrote a Myopia history book that is 150 pages, and he devoted as much attention to hunting and polo and tennis in his book as he did to golf. I suppose if Weeks or Myopia had wanted a 1000 page book on everything that ever took place with golf or Leeds at Myopia he might have put every single thing that was ever recorded in the book but apparently neither Myopia nor Weeks wanted to do that.

It's really no different than Tolhurst's book on Merion. But the fact that neither book included every single thing in Myopia's or Merion's archives does not mean it isn't there, and it does not mean that either book is seriously flawed either.

Weeks not including the fact that Willie Campbell was Myopia's pro for a single year (1896) basically tells me Campbell was probably not there long enough or he just didn't make much of an impression on Leeds or Myopia! It probably looks far more flagrant to you but that's what can happen when someone like you completely exaggerates things, including the stature and importance of men like a Campbell or a H.H. Barker.



""Its Weeks' book....I don't care who he quoted,...."

Apparently not, Mr. MacWood, and it certainly does show in your long-running, uninformed, revisionist analysis of Myopia Hunt Club's golf architectural history!

[Jay Flemma]

Actually, I've heard that if you read the Weeks book backwards, it clearly says that "Whigham is dead".   

It's "whigham is dead, miss him, miss him"

then it says "go to church.  say your prayers..."

Hiya Cirba.  Gonna miss you at Bechtree

[Mike_Cirba]

It's "whigham is dead, miss him, miss him"

then it says "go to church.  say your prayers..."

Hiya Cirba.  Gonna miss you at Bechtree

Jay,

I believe it then says, "please remove all forms of witchcraft from this woman Sarah Whigham" 

Of course, I could be wrong;  as Tom Paul mentioned, not everything that's happened at Myopia over 100 years is in the book.

By the way, how close is Myopia to Salem?  (cue the "Twilight Zone" music, follwed by the strings of "Psycho") 

Perhaps it's all just a traditional far-north-country Halloween Gag..



Yeah...it sucks about Beechtree.   Unavoidable and good for my stepson, but I will certainly miss seeing everyone.

[TEPaul]

"Appleton not only introduced golf to Myopia he also introduced it to Palmetto in Aiken SC. Aiken was and is a southern winter horse center for those kinds of people."




"He did? I thought Thomas Hitchcock of the Meadowbrook Club founded the hunting colony at Aiken in 1892 and the golf club was founded in 1895. For some reason Leeds designed the golf course not Appleton. Too busy tending to the hounds? I have found a Frances Appleton of NY was a regular participant in golf events at Palmetto."



Mr. MacWood:

This once again seemingly proves you are incapable of reading and understanding a fairy simple declarative sentence!?!

I did not say R.M Appleton founded Palmetto and I did not say he designed that golf course. I said he introduce golf to Palmetto and Aiken, just as he introduced golf to Myopia Hunt Club in 1894. To design Palmetto he obviously brought his buddy Herbert Carey Leeds down to do it for Palmetto or do you think Willie Campbell did that too?   

You really like to name drop, don't you, Mr MacWood? What do you think that proves---that you're an expert researcher? My how you must have Google working overtime in your Ivory Tower in Ohio!

Thomas Hitchcock? What do you know about him? Frances Appleton?? First of all, Frances is a woman's name, Mr. MacWood. Perhaps you may be referring to Col Francis Appleton who I think may've been R.M's nephew. He's the one who remembered the six hole course on the Appleton estate to Edward Weeks. 

What has really become so comical to me, Mr. MacWood, is how you tell me when I describe some of these people and places that I must be staying in a Holiday Inn Express.

I'll remind you, again, that while you GOOGLE yourself to sleep every night on these places and these people you have never seen and have never known, you are into my world, Mr. MacWood, and not yours! But I am aware of the research and analytical philosophy as outlined by you and Mr. Moriarty on here a while ago that it is not very accurate to depend on family and friends for accurate information on the subjects we study and discuss on here, and that it is far more accurate to read about them in magazines and newspapers!   

[Jay Flemma]

It's "whigham is dead, miss him, miss him"

then it says "go to church.  say your prayers..."

Hiya Cirba.  Gonna miss you at Bechtree

Jay,

I believe it then says, "please remove all forms of witchcraft from this woman Sarah Whigham" 

Of course, I could be wrong;  as Tom Paul mentioned, not everything that's happened at Myopia over 100 years is in the book.

By the way, how close is Myopia to Salem?  (cue the "Twilight Zone" music, follwed by the strings of "Psycho") 

Perhaps it's all just a traditional far-north-country Halloween Gag..



Yeah...it sucks about Beechtree.   Unavoidable and good for my stepson, but I will certainly miss seeing everyone.

Hopefully I'll see you Philly-ish really soon.

really really soon.

IM me for deets.

[Thomas MacWood]

Mr. MacWood:

I've seen the 1894 Myopia Club record by Board secretary S. Dacre Bush. The original nine was laid out before Campbell arrived in America. Play began around June 1, 1894. The three months is accurate not the least reason being S. Dacre Bush's recorded those events in 1894, including the first two tournaments both of which Leeds won just after all those facts of 1894.

Play began around June 1? Did play begin on May 31st or June 17th or some other date? When you say the 3 months is accurate are you saying Appleton's projection it would take 3 months to build the course was precise to the day? When did consruction begin?

If you want to dismiss those kinds of contemporaneous board records of golf clubs such as Merion and Myopia and exaggerate some peripheral people who were not even part of these projects when they began that's just fine but I guarantee you noone takes that seriously.

I don't wan't to dismiss conteporaneous board records but I would hope they would give us more than play began around June 1.

Keep searching and maybe someday you may find your way to Myopia or Merion and figure all this out from their archives although I doubt it.

Please explain. Are you saying that access to these golf courses may alter my historical judgement?  Has it altered your judgement?

[Thomas MacWood]

"Its Weeks' book....I don't care who he quoted, the bottom line is he didn't have the dates of the most significant events in 1894 (see the list above). He had no idea Campbell was the pro at Myopia. He has no idea when or where Leeds traveled abroad. He has no clue about the original nine and how it evolved. Don't you agree the book is seriously flawed."

Mr. MacWood:

No I do not.

Perhaps you think if Weeks did not include something in his book that means he got it wrong!?! That might be the most bizarre thing you've said to date. All it means is he didn't include every single thing in Myopia's 100 year history in his book, including everything Leeds recorded in his diary and everywhere he went.   

He did not include Willie Campbell in his book. Considering his importance to Boston golf developments and the history of Myopia that is a serious error.

Week's wrote a Myopia history book that is 150 pages, and he devoted as much attention to hunting and polo and tennis in his book as he did to golf. I suppose if Weeks or Myopia had wanted a 1000 page book on everything that ever took place with golf or Leeds at Myopia he might have put every single thing that was ever recorded in the book but apparently neither Myopia nor Weeks wanted to do that.

This is golf architecure site devoted to history of golf architecture, one would hope we cite books that are conscious of the subject.

It's really no different than Tolhurst's book on Merion. But the fact that neither book included every single thing in Myopia's or Merion's archives does not mean it isn't there, and it does not mean that either book is seriously flawed either.

What ever you say.

Weeks not including the fact that Willie Campbell was Myopia's pro for a single year (1896) basically tells me Campbell was probably not there long enough or he just didn't make much of an impression on Leeds or Myopia! It probably looks far more flagrant to you but that's what can happen when someone like you completely exaggerates things, including the stature and importance of men like a Campbell or a H.H. Barker.

Was Campbell important to Boston golf architecure in the 1890s?

""Its Weeks' book....I don't care who he quoted,...."

Apparently not, Mr. MacWood, and it certainly does show in your long-running, uninformed, revisionist analysis of Myopia Hunt Club's golf architectural history!