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Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #200 on: September 19, 2008, 11:09:41 PM »
No.

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #201 on: September 21, 2008, 10:47:27 AM »
Mr. MacWood:

I am very glad to hear that, at least! 

The next historical question, therefore, should probably be to document as accurately as possible WHEN Campbell actually did FIRST arrive in this country. At least with that the beginning of a solid timeline could be constructed! ;)

I'm not the biggest believer in the reliability of these so-called ship passenger manifest lists but apparently you and Mr. Moriarty are. Therefore, why don't you see if you can document the actual date that Willie Cambell first arrived in America via one of those ship passenger manifest lists?  ;)

If that appears to be difficult or impossible to do, at least we would then know a little something more about the lack of reliability of these ship passenger manifest lists.

But the ship passenger manifest lists aside, I'm quite sure Myopia would be willing to consider the meaning of some Boston Globe newspaper article (which you claim to have seen but refuse to show anyone ;) ) that reports Willie Campbell had some hand in laying out the original nine of Myopia rather than Appleton, Merrill and Gardner, as the club's own contemporaneous administrative records from 1894 report.

The idea is that if a Boston newspaper article from around the timeframe of the spring of 1894 reported something about Campbell and his having a hand in laying out that original nine, at least we could fairly conclude that he ACTUALLY was here in America at that time!   ;)

But insofar as you continue to claim you must adhere to this ridiculous "pledge" of yours not to show it to anyone, I doubt the issue will ever get much attention. It is your claim, and not mine, therefore you're the one who should back it up!

Failing that perhaps you should try to get in touch with his grandson. Do you know who he is or where he is?  ???

If you can't find him perhaps I can. I'm told by an old Myopia member that there are a number of Willie and Georgina's family still in and around Massachusetts.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2008, 11:01:46 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #202 on: September 21, 2008, 11:08:56 AM »
Why don't you stop hypothesizing and just look up the information?

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #203 on: September 21, 2008, 11:33:06 AM »
"Why don't you stop hypothesizing and just look up the information?"


Mr. MacWood:

Simply because Campbell designing the original nine is not my contention---it's your contention. I don't believe it at this point and either does Myopia. I don't know that anyone does. And I don't feel like going on some wild goose chase to prove or disprove a contention of yours that most everyone feels is highly speculative or bogus anyway (particularly considering Myopia's own contemporaneous administrative records that indicate the contrary----evidence which you are not and have never been familiar with. In this way, with you, Myopia isn't any different from Merion and its contemporaneous administrative records which you are not and have never been familiar with----eg a pretty poor position to try to do an accurate architectural analysis of a course and club).

It's your contention that Campbell laid out the original nine at Myopia and not Appleton, Merrill and Gardner as the club's history contends, and you're the one who needs to support it, in my opinion. If you don't it will continue to be the non-issue it probably always has been anyway.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2008, 11:40:57 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #204 on: September 21, 2008, 02:47:45 PM »
I could care less if you or anyone else believes it or not. Obviously you are satisfied with the Appleton story found in the history book. Based on that I'm not sure why you are so interested with my research and Campbell's involvement.

There is no mystery surrounding when and why Campbell came to this county. I find it kind of strange that you continue to speculate about it, especially since you do not believe he had any involvement at Myopia.

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #205 on: September 21, 2008, 06:21:28 PM »
"I could care less if you or anyone else believes it or not. Obviously you are satisfied with the Appleton story found in the history book. Based on that I'm not sure why you are so interested with my research and Campbell's involvement."

Mr. MacWood:

I am and so is Myopia. It's in the history book because it's part of the administrative records of the club at that time. Nothing has come forward to dispute it or call its accuracy into question and it doesn't look like anything will come forward from you, so it seems to be a non-issue.


"There is no mystery surrounding when and why Campbell came to this county. I find it kind of strange that you continue to speculate about it, especially since you do not believe he had any involvement at Myopia."


I don't suppose there is a mystery about when he first arrived here, it's just that neither you nor anyone else on here to date has been able to establish when it was he first arrived here. I would assume his family or perhaps his grandson who seems to be something of his biographer today probably knows.  ;)

Frankly, it seems that Willie Campbell's wife, Georgina, who survived him by over fifty years is probably the more significant member of the Campbell family in American golf.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2008, 06:26:13 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #206 on: September 21, 2008, 10:33:47 PM »
Wasn't Myopia laid out in late winter 1894?    Didn't Campbell come to the US in 1894?

It would seem a bit of a feat to arrive and layout a course within a few months, or was it 9 stakes on a Sunday morning?

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #207 on: September 22, 2008, 11:39:07 AM »
"Wasn't Myopia laid out in late winter 1894?    Didn't Campbell come to the US in 1894?"


MikeC:

Willie Campbell may have first gotten over here in 1893 but I would just like to see Mr. MacWood prove that on here via one of his favorite "ship passenger manifest list" websites such as ancestory.com which he claims are so reliable!  ;)

You know, these guys have implied that if we can't find Hugh Wilson on one in 1910 then that proves there's no way he could've been abroad in 1910. What if they can't find one for Campbell in 1893 or 1894? Shouldn't that mean to them given the same logic that Campbell wasn't here?

Or perhaps they think he flew over here before airplanes.  ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #208 on: September 22, 2008, 02:03:47 PM »
Tom,

I'd certainly be interested in the results of that search.

When did his wife come over?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #209 on: September 22, 2008, 02:54:54 PM »
I did a little digging.

Willie Campbell arrived in Boston on March 31, 1894 after sailing from Glasgow.   He was 31 years old.

Is there any record of when the first nine at Myopia was laid out?


Jay Flemma

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #210 on: September 24, 2008, 03:08:34 PM »
bump...I wanna know the answer to Mike's Q.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #211 on: September 24, 2008, 03:30:17 PM »

According to Myopia's 1894 club records and Myopia's history book, Myopia's original nine hole course laid out in the spring of 1894 and open for play in June was done by three Myopia members, R.M. Appleton, Thomas Watson Merrill and A. P. Gardner.



June 18. 1894
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 03:51:29 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #212 on: September 24, 2008, 06:05:22 PM »
Jay:

Myopia's history explains that 'When the snows melted in the spring of 1894, club members Appleton, Merrill and Gardner footed it over the CLUB acres, spotting the tees and pacing off the distance to provisional greens, probably marking them with pegs. Appleton and his partners reported to the executive committee that the nine could be made ready for play in three months....."nine greens were sodded and cut, and play began about June 1st, 1894."

The first tournament was held on June 18, 1894. There were twenty five entries and Herbert Leeds of Boston who was scratch won it.

If it is true that the course was made ready for play in three months and play began about June 1st, 1894, then logically the timeline would indicate those three members probably laid out the course to be made ready for play in three months at some point just before March 1894.

Again, one considering these events at this time by someone like recently appointed Master of the Hunt, R.M. Appleton, should keep in mind that Appleton actually had his own golf course on his own estate, the 1,000 acre Appleton Farm, in nearby Ipswich for up to two years previous to him proposing golf at Myopia and laying out its first nine with two of his member friends. I think Edward Weeks makes an excellent point that given golf was viewed with suspicion and apparently contempt by the riding, hunting and polo interests at Myopia Hunt Club that Appleton was probably not just the best one but perhaps the only one who could actually get away with proposing golf because he was also the Master of the Hunt!
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 06:23:24 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #213 on: September 24, 2008, 08:25:45 PM »
Jay:

Myopia's history explains that 'When the snows melted in the spring of 1894, club members Appleton, Merrill and Gardner footed it over the CLUB acres, spotting the tees and pacing off the distance to provisional greens, probably marking them with pegs. Appleton and his partners reported to the executive committee that the nine could be made ready for play in three months....."nine greens were sodded and cut, and play began about June 1st, 1894."

The first tournament was held on June 18, 1894. There were twenty five entries and Herbert Leeds of Boston who was scratch won it.

Let me cut through this BS. On June 10, 1894 it was announced the course was to be opened for play on Bunker Hill Day 1894. WB Thomas was the first person mentioned to be playing that day. Thomas was the man responsible for Willie Campbell coming to Boston. The following week it was also reported Willie Campbell had laid out the course.

If it is true that the course was made ready for play in three months and play began about June 1st, 1894, then logically the timeline would indicate those three members probably laid out the course to be made ready for play in three months at some point just before March 1894.

Where do you come up with this stuff? That was a rhetorical question....we know where your info comes from. The same guy who had no idea Willie Campbell was the pro at Myopia and who forgot to tell us when and where Leeds went overseas, and what subsequent changes he made to the course (even though he aledgedly had access to his diary).

Some time before March? The date of Myopia HC's annual meeting at the Somerset Club in 1894 is well documeted. It makes you wonder about Weeks, again. He claims to know what happened in the meeting but doesn't know the date it took place. It was at this meeting that the club decided to create a golf links. No one knows precisely when the course was actually laid out, only when it opened.

Weeks' three months is a red herring. Campbell laid out Brookline, Essex and Myopia all in less than 3 months. Again, this is well documented.

This is what happens when you have someone with an agenda who prefers speculating over fact finding.


Again, one considering these events at this time by someone like recently appointed Master of the Hunt, R.M. Appleton, should keep in mind that Appleton actually had his own golf course on his own estate, the 1,000 acre Appleton Farm, in nearby Ipswich for up to two years previous to him proposing golf at Myopia and laying out its first nine with two of his member friends. I think Edward Weeks makes an excellent point that given golf was viewed with suspicion and apparently contempt by the riding, hunting and polo interests at Myopia Hunt Club that Appleton was probably not just the best one but perhaps the only one who could actually get away with proposing golf because he was also the Master of the Hunt!

« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 08:52:00 PM by Tom MacWood »

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #214 on: September 24, 2008, 08:35:12 PM »
Mr. MacWood:

Knowing your modus operandi as I do in your posts from dealing with you on here for a number of years I very strongly suspect in the last day or so you have fortunately come upon a copy of Edward Weeks's Myopia history book or some way to reference it. I realize you would probably never admit that and that you will try telling me you've had it all along but I don't believe it for a minute. The reason I say that is I notice in the last day or so you've began quoting from it where previous in the last month you weren't doing that and that you seemed to be depending on what I said on here from it.

If you have it I believe that is a very good thing indeed as that will give us some real common ground from which to carry on an intelligent discussion about the architectural history of Myopia from the perspective of that history book including whatever part Campbell played in it, as well as why Weeks never mentioned him in the architectural history of Myopia.

As in all history books, if one analyzes them carefully enough after the fact there always will be some inconsistencies or misinterpretations in them. That is almost inevitable. It's basically the nature of the business. I have found one in his book about the original nine which is a bit nuancy but perhaps a misinterpretation given the fact that apparently the so-called uphill holes were not laid out or in play until Leeds became involved in 1896. If that is true Weeks's description of the original 1894 nine, even if he does say it is somewhat speculative really doesn't make a lot of sense. But again, the reasons it doesn't are bit nuancy.

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #215 on: September 24, 2008, 08:50:48 PM »
Mr. MacWood:

With your post #213 it looks like we are back to square one with your contention that Willie Campbell laid out Myopia’s original nine in the spring of 1894 instead of Appleton, Merrill and Gardner as Myopia’s history book reports.

You said in post #213:

“Let me cut through this BS. On June 10, 1894 it was announced the course was to be opened for play on Bunker Hill Day 1894. WB Thomas was the first person mentioned to be playing. Thomas was the man responsible for Willie Campbell coming to Boston. The following weel it was also reported that Willie Campbell laid out the course.”



First of all where was it announced on June 10, 1894 that the course was to be opened of Bunker Hill Day 1894. And second, when is Bunker Hill day in June?
Thirdly, I’ve never heard of WB Thomas. Who is he and what’s his connection to Myopia Hunt Club? Lastly, where was it reported the following week that Willie Campbell laid out Myopia’s original nine instead of Appleton, Merrill and Gardner as the Myopia history book reports? Are you now beginning to refer to this mysterious Boston Globe article that you’ve been mentioning for a month or so but refuse to produce because of this ridiculous “PLEDGE” of yours? If that's what you're now referring to why don't you just produce it on here like the others have recently with newspaper accounts so that we all, including Myopia can look at it and analyze what it all means?  ;)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 08:53:25 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #216 on: September 24, 2008, 09:01:31 PM »
I have no doubt Merrill, Appleton and Gardner were the driving forces behind the creation of a golf course at Myopia, but they did not lay out the course. WB Thomas was a prominent Brookline golfer and the USGA president 1899-1900. You can figure out the rest on your own.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #217 on: September 24, 2008, 09:21:46 PM »
Actually, I've heard that if you read the Weeks book backwards, it clearly says that "Whigham is dead".   ;)

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #218 on: September 24, 2008, 10:07:56 PM »
Mr. MacWood:

I said:

"If it is true that the course was made ready for play in three months and play began about June 1st, 1894, then logically the timeline would indicate those three members probably laid out the course to be made ready for play in three months at some point just before March 1894."



You responded to that in #213 with:

"Where do you come up with this stuff? That was a rhetorical question....we know where your info comes from. The same guy who had no idea Willie Campbell was the pro at Myopia and who forgot to tell us when and where Leeds went overseas, and what subsequent changes he made to the course (even though he aledgedly had access to his diary)."

What was a rhetorical question, Mr. MacWood?

First of all, I don't believe you do know where my information comes from, certainly not all of it. Clearly most of my information comes from Edward Weeks's 1975 Myopia history book.

But you ask where I come up with this stuff. Let me explain to you how I try to go about this kind of analysis if the need seems to arise as it apparently has with you contending that Willie Campbell laid out Myopia's original nine contrary to what was reported in the Myopia history book.

What I do, in that case, is carefully analyze not just what Edward Weeks said about Appleton, Merrill and Gardner laying out the original nine in the early spring of 1894 as soon as the snow melted but exactly how he saai it. If I see that he simply writes this kind of account with no quotations from some source material he may be referring to I basically ask myself what is it he’s using to come up with these stories of these events? Would it be indirect oral remembrances from people after the fact or would it be actual contemporaneous documents from the administrative records of the club itself and those involved at that time. Or would he be just creating somewhat elaborate and detailed stories of events right out of whole cloth and his own imaginative mind?
 
I remind you, Mr. MacWood, Edward Weeks was the editor of a prominent American magazine---Town and Country, and the guy definitely knew how to research and write and how to reference what he is writing about and using to write about a whole lot better than a couple of highly speculative revisionist amateur writers and researchers who write IMO pieces on this website like you and David Moriarty.

So when I see things like those stories out of quotations but particularly in quotations in his history book I ask myself what was it that he was sitting there referring to and looking at when he wrote what he did?

Then I go to the club and ask them if they still have that source material---eg club contemporaneous records and administrative records and such that was part of the recordings of the events that were taking placed when Myopia was first laying out a golf course.

If I get lucky a club still has that original contemporaneous source material the history writer was sitting there referring to when he researched and wrote his history book. By the way, it appears pretty obvious that Weeks and Batchelder and others researched that history for a couple of decades before Weeks’s book was published.

And if a club has that kind of original source material I analyze it just as weeks did years ago. Having done that and then if I run into someone like you and Moriarty who simply retorts that all of that almost automatically has to be either a lie or total hyperbole aforethought simply to create some “legend” out of an architect of theirs, like a Leeds or a Wilson, then do you know what I say to myself? I say that noone in their right mind needs to consider this kind of illogical opinion and contention from a couple of idiots plying some kind of personal self promotion agenda on an INTERNET website who’ve never even been to these golf clubs!

That's where I come up with some of this thing you arrogantly refer to as 'Stuff', Mr. MacWood!  ;)

Now, let me ask you---where do you come up with your "stuff"? Is it from some article in the Boston Globe from that time that you for some odd reason still refuse to produce? I'll remind you that in my opinion, and in the open of most logical minds, the contemporaneous source material from the administrative undertakings of a golf club in the process of creating something like a golf course are going to trump for accuracy the reporting of some indirect newspaper reporter any day of the week and twice on Sunday. The reasons for that are patently obvious---the former is direct and the latter is inherently indirect. I should also remind you that according to those who really do know the history of Boston and its newspapers that the Boston Globe was basically considered to be a real "rag" and certainly in the context of the society of Boston at that time.

I do want to engage you in this in an intelligent and mature way and if you somehow trump the architectural history of Myopia at that particular time or any time, believe me we all, including Myopia, will give you all the credit you deserve for it. We'll all make you look like a research and analytical hero if that's what you want which is patently obvious that you do want on this website Mr. MacWood.

None of us involved with Myopia or Merion are children here, Mr. MacWood, and we are not being defensive as you keep accusing us of being. We're all grown-ups here and all we are interested in is seeing that the accuracy of this history is established.

So if you have something, then show it to us instead of always hiding behind this dumb and excuse transparent "PLEDGE" of yours.

This isn't much different than that Merion charade you and Moriarty carried on. Merion was actually really expectant when they heard that someone may've found that Macdonald, a man whose reputation they know and understand, might have done more in the design process than Merion ever knew.  But when they actually read that essay on here their collective response was----"Are they kidding us, who are these people who never even came here, who never even analyzed our records and who completely torture easily establishable events and timelines to come up with this kind of revisionist crap?"

They think you two are total analytical amateurs apparently on some kind of agenda to just topple so-call "legends" at any and all costs to make some name for yourselves with an unsuspecting public such as those on here and they are completely right about that.

Try to do better this time with Myopia's architectural history, would you please Mr. MacWood? Produce something other than your speculative opinion and constant “point-missing questions and if somehow you pull it off and it is clearly supportable by documentation, believe me the club, me, and everyone else will not only give you all the credit you seek, we will all sincerely thank you for establishing the accurate architectural history of a really prominent American golf course!

But the way you’ve been going about it is not yet even in the ballpark!


TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #219 on: September 24, 2008, 10:25:50 PM »
"WB Thomas was a prominent Brookline golfer and the USGA president 1899-1900. You can figure out the rest on your own."


Mr. MacWood:

I think we all realize Willie Anderson came to the country originally to work at TCC at Brookline. Even if he was basically asked to come over here by a prominent Brookline golfer and USGA president in 1894, I really don't see the logic in why you contend that he laid out another golf course, in this case, Myopia, and particularly since Campbell arrived here perhaps a month after Myopia already had been laid out by Appleton, Merrill and Gardner. But who the hell knows, maybe Thomas sent Campbell over to Myopia after hours or something so he could take care of some sod on the greens they'd already laid out so the poor wretch could earn a few extra bucks as a new immigrant! Either that or apparently you have no idea what a three month period in that day meant as far as laying out a course and then giving it a chance to "grow-in" so golfers could actually play golf on it. That wouldn't surprise me since obviously you've never spent any time out in the field on a project and you clearly don't understand much of anything of the realities of all that such as grow-in following design and construction. ;)

If Myopia had been actively in on getting Campbell over here to America in 1894 to lay out their original nine there is no question in my mind the administrative records of Myopia at that time would have reflected that. They don't, just as with MCC, I've seen them.

Please tell us you are not going to respond to that by trying to convince everyone that they were all lying at the time in the hopes of creating some golf architect "legend" 5 to 10 to 20 years later. That is essentially what you have been contending and implying with a few of these famous courses and their famous local designers and honestly, Mr. MacWood, it is just so silly and I would hope that at some point soon you will see this and just stop this kind of charade.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 10:33:17 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #220 on: September 24, 2008, 10:38:25 PM »
Tom Paul,

I think you are onto something important here that seems to make logical sense as we spoke about yesterday.

There is no doubt that Willie Campbell was an important figure at the time, and was essentially the second foreign-born professional to come to these shores.   Also, given the very close, almost incestuous relationship between some of these early clubs, there is little doubt that if Brookline was bringing over a player of Campbell's ilk to be their teaching professional/clubmaker/designer/agronomist/therapist, and whatever other duties they assumed every British born professional was believed to instincitvely assume by virtue of their birthright, it would make sense that the members of both clubs might have had him come over to check in on things at Myopia during the course-building stage, sometime after he finally arrived in Boston on March 31, 1894.

There might also have been, and likely should have been, news reports of the legend Campbell's visit to Myopia.   He might even have suggested some things to the membership about their new and fledgling course.

Why would they not have attempted to leverage his opinion?   

Still and all, I think the fundamental question, as in the case of Merion, was/is simply this;

Was Willie Campbell brought in by Myopia to design their course, or was his opinion sought simply to validate the direction and design of the membership?

In the case of Merion, the historical record is very clear.

In the case of Myopia, we've yet to see any reason to believe that Campbell's role was anything but advisory and frankly, we haven't even seen a smidgeon of evidence that he was anything but a teaching pro in his brief stint there.


TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #221 on: September 24, 2008, 11:03:20 PM »
MikeC:

That may be the case. But we just have to look at it this way---eg in a basic timeline context----IF it is true that Appleton, Merrill and Gardner actually went out there on that land and LAID out a golf course---where the tees were, the direction of the holes and where the greens were BEFORE Willie Campbell even arrived in this country, there is just no way in hell that Campbell could have done that for them! The reason and logic is just so simple---eg HE WASN'T HERE AND COULDN'T HAVE DONE THAT! Apparently Tom MacWood just doesn't see something that obvious!  ;)

The only key here is to establish as accurately as possible WHEN Appleton, Merrill and Gardner actually did that. The only other alternative is to assume it was all just some big lie and I, for one, just am not going to accept that at this point and certainly not from some analytical numbskull and fact exaggerating clown like Tom MacWood.

He tells us Willie Campbell entered this country as some kind of architectural "LEGEND"?!? Michael Cirba, are you going to fall for that? Where's the evidence of that? Where's the fact? Please tell me you aren't beginning to take Mr. MacWood's speculative opinion n THAT as actual FACT!  ;)

In my opinion, if it is true that the course was LAID OUT and then took three months BEFORE it was first played that timeline just takes Campbell out of consideration for LAYING OUT Myopia's original nine unless of course your passenger manifest listing for his arrival in the country around the beginning of April 1894 is wrong and he got here at some point earlier than that! This is what this kind of logical analysis is all about. These kinds of timeline items, IF true, just basically check one another out!

Mr. MacWood just said Weeks's reporting the course took THREE MONTHS between being LAID OUT and being used in play is a RED HERRING!? OH REALLY? Don't you think he had least ought to try to explain to SOMEBODY exactly why it's a red herring???   ???

A guy like Campbell was a pro golfer, a journeyman and jack-of-all-trades perhaps. An OLD TOM MORRIS he most definitely was not at least not in the perception of a club like Myopia or Leeds. Make no mistake, historical or otherwise about that!

And that isn't even really the point about men like Leeds, Emmet, Fownes, Macdonald, Wilson, Crump. There is a reason they didn't hire people like Campbell to do their courses and there was a reason and a good one they decided to just do it on their own, did do it on their own basically, and created such great and enduring golf courses basically on their own.

This clown Tom MacWood is definitely not going to trash and fuck up that history, that fact of American architecture, not as long as I'm around!  :) This guy calls the idea of the early American "amateur/sportsman" designer 'my invention'? Are you kidding me? To do that is to deny just about everything that the likes of Leeds, Fownes, Macdonald, Emmet, Wilson, Crump WERE! How obtuse is this guy anyway?!?

With what he just said about speculation and agendas, particularly if he's talking about a man like Edward Weeks, is definitely going to get me to renew my efforts to constantly counter this insidious historical revisionist on here. One thousand Tom MacWoods aren't worth one single quick piss of a researcher/writer of the quality of an Edward Weeks! The man was the editor of Town and Country magazine for Christ's Sake. Mr. Tom MacWood can't even write a semi-credible IMO piece on this website!   ::)

The real problem is this kind of place is part of the new information dissemination and people like this guy and his trainee have just got to be challenged and hopefully stopped. They're no different really than those totally sensationalistic "rags" that most people glance at, sometimes pick up but usually put back before they check through the grocery line!   ;)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 11:39:07 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #222 on: September 25, 2008, 12:01:46 AM »
MikeC:

That may be the case. But we just have to look at it this way---eg in a basic timeline context----IF it is true that Appleton, Merrill and Gardner actually went out there on that land and LAID out a golf course---where the tees were, the direction of the holes and where the greens were BEFORE Willie Campbell even arrived in this country, there is just no way in hell that Campbell could have done that for them! The reason and logic is just so simple---eg HE WASN'T HERE AND COULDN'T HAVE DONE THAT! Apparently Tom MacWood just doesn't see something that obvious!  ;)

The only key here is to establish as accurately as possible WHEN Appleton, Merrill and Gardner actually did that. The only other alternative is to assume it was all just some big lie and I, for one, just am not going to accept that at this point and certainly not from some analytical numbskull and fact exaggerating clown like Tom MacWood.

He tells us Willie Campbell entered this country as some kind of architectural "LEGEND"?!? Michael Cirba, are you going to fall for that? Where's the evidence of that? Where's the fact? Please tell me you aren't beginning to take Mr. MacWood's speculative opinion n THAT as actual FACT!  ;)

In my opinion, if it is true that the course was LAID OUT and then took three months BEFORE it was first played that timeline just takes Campbell out of consideration for LAYING OUT Myopia's original nine unless of course your passenger manifest listing for his arrival in the country around the beginning of April 1894 is wrong and he got here at some point earlier than that! This is what this kind of logical analysis is all about. These kinds of timeline items, IF true, just basically check one another out!

Mr. MacWood just said Weeks's reporting the course took THREE MONTHS between being LAID OUT and being used in play is a RED HERRING!? OH REALLY? Don't you think he had least ought to try to explain to SOMEBODY exactly why it's a red herring???   ???

A guy like Campbell was a pro golfer, a journeyman and jack-of-all-trades perhaps. An OLD TOM MORRIS he most definitely was not at least not in the perception of a club like Myopia or Leeds. Make no mistake, historical or otherwise about that!

And that isn't even really the point about men like Leeds, Emmet, Fownes, Macdonald, Wilson, Crump. There is a reason they didn't hire people like Campbell to do their courses and there was a reason and a good one they decided to just do it on their own, did do it on their own basically, and created such great and enduring golf courses basically on their own.

This clown Tom MacWood is definitely not going to trash and fuck up that history, that fact of American architecture, not as long as I'm around!  :) This guy calls the idea of the early American "amateur/sportsman" designer 'my invention'? Are you kidding me? To do that is to deny just about everything that the likes of Leeds, Fownes, Macdonald, Emmet, Wilson, Crump WERE! How obtuse is this guy anyway?!?

With what he just said about speculation and agendas, particularly if he's talking about a man like Edward Weeks, is definitely going to get me to renew my efforts to constantly counter this insidious historical revisionist on here. One thousand Tom MacWoods aren't worth one single quick piss of a researcher/writer of the quality of an Edward Weeks! The man was the editor of Town and Country magazine for Christ's Sake. Mr. Tom MacWood can't even write a semi-credible IMO piece on this website!   ::)

The real problem is this kind of place is part of the new information dissemination and people like this guy and his trainee have just got to be challenged and hopefully stopped. They're no different really than those totally sensationalistic "rags" that most people glance at, sometimes pick up but usually put back before they check through the grocery line!   ;)

TE
Get controll of yourself. You like to play up your association with respected orginizations like Merion, Myopia, The Creek, Pine Valley and the USGA. Thats great, but do you think people like Rand Jerris, George Holland, John Capers, and others want your meltdowns to be the face of their orginizations? Your personal frustrations do reflect upon them.

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #223 on: September 25, 2008, 12:31:14 AM »
"TE
Get controll of yourself. You like to play up your association with respected orginizations like Merion, Myopia, The Creek, Pine Valley and the USGA. Thats great, but do you think people like Rand Jerris, George Holland, John Capers, and others want your meltdowns to be the face of their orginizations? Your personal frustrations do reflect upon them."


Tom MacWood:

If you are going to try to take me on on this website like that again, using the names of clubs I know and know me and have had a long time relationship with, the associations I have relationships with for years and the people I know and who are my friends in these clubs and associations and organizations, I promise you we will be back to where we were before on this website but this time it will be a whole lot less pretty than it was. Is that what you really want? I don't.

I'm pretty sure you understand you aren't going to intimidate me in the slightest, not this way or any other way you might think of. And I'm pretty sure you understand that kind of post of yours is not going to get me to change my opinions on the architectural histories of these clubs I know that we are discussing.

My suggestion is that we simply stick to the subject of golf course architecture. If you want to go at that hard against each other that's fine, I see nothing wrong with that because it's just about golf architecture.

But if you start writing posts like that last one do not ever expect me to back off because I absolutely guarantee you I won't. Do I often try to defend the integrity of some of these clubs, their memberships, their old architects and those that worked with them and knew them well from people who say things and imply things about them like you do? You bet I do, because I believe in their integrity, I believe they became legends because they really deserved to be factually and historically.

I think you are nothing but an unintelligent self-promoting iconoclast with some of these clubs and their people with most of what you've been saying and implying about them on here for the last five or so years. You call what you're doing fact-finding? I think that's complete bullshit and I think you know that. It's distortion and revisionism, plain and simple, and you're just doing it to get attention. You think an outsider like you looking in is the best way or the only way to be objective about these subjects? That's total crap too but I doubt you'll ever see that or understand it. All that's about is a good prescription for never really understanding a subject. I've always thought you had more to offer than that other guy but I'm beginning to wonder about that now.

If you want to continue to have this discussion about Campbell laying out Myopia then you better come up with whatever that article is you've been referring to for a month or more now but refuse to produce on here so we can all have a discussion about what it really does say because as far as anyone can see that article (Boston Globe or whatever the hell it is) is the only thing you've based this contention of yours about Myopia and Campbell on. It's about that simple, Tom MacWood, and I believe at this point everyone understands that, as I'm sure you probably do too.

SAVY?   ;)
« Last Edit: September 25, 2008, 01:31:27 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Comparing and contrasting Garden City and Myopia Hunt
« Reply #224 on: September 25, 2008, 08:56:55 AM »
The following kindly supplied today by Neil Crafter from Australia:



"Not sure if this is the right Myopia/Willie Campbell thread to put this info on....but here goes.

John Lovell had sent me this article a while ago and I just came across it today when looking for something else. The article is entitled "Willie Campbell (1862-1900) The World's best Match Player & Georgina Campbell (1864 - 1953) The First Lady professional" by Brian J DeLacey and John Pearson and was published in 'Through the Green' the magazine of the British Golf Collector's Society (I'm not sure of the date).

They indicate Campbell came out to America after receiving an offer from Washington Thomas who asked Campbell to assist at both The Country Club and Essex CC. He extended six holes to nine at TCC. Willie had design commissions at Torresdale Frankford (1895) Tatnuck (1899) Beaver Meadow(1899) and Wannamoisett (1899). Willie left TCC (where he was for all of 1895) for Myopia Hunt Club in 1896. "After helping to establish a new course at Myopia, he moved back to Boston...." He died of cancer on 25 November 1900 in Dorchester, Boston, aged just 38.

Hope this helps. They list their sources at the end of the article.

cheers Neil"