Ran and Ben: Stop the Madness!

[PCCraig]

This is what happens when people become too emotionally attached to an online discussion board!

I feel bad for Ran, considering all the time and energy he has invested into this site, to have to deal with the day-to-day bickering between members.

[JWinick]

Wayne:

It's not practical for Ran, who operates a site pretty much for free, to take on the responsibilities of fact-checking.  So long as no one is being slandered, the best response is a strong rebuttal.

I'm not sure why people here feel the need always to police debate.   Why? 

"This isn't Russia.   Wait a sec - is it Russia?"

[Melvyn Morrow]

Tom

What does not help on this site are stupid comments that can annoy people, ones like
 
“I thought Wayne left this group sometime back”

Be clever, but your comments just proves the point. Some of us tried hard to persuade Wayne to stay, as he is helpful, informative and brings some very interesting point to the table for discussion – tell me Tom what have you added in 86 posts? Perhaps you have left.   



I don’t believe it would hurt to show others a little bit of respect. They have a right to an opinion and YOU don’t have the right to belittle it, but you do have the right to voice your opinion.  I have not problem with anyone disagreeing with me as long as they explain why.

We may not all agree, we at times find information that appears to come from a solid source, but how solid is it, who is to say it’s not correct.  If I see someone has a passion for something I don’t go out and try and destroy his interest, but there are some on this site who just love to play Devils advocate.

We are all to jumpy, I mention my dislikes and some take it as a personal insult to their nation, when in point of fact it is just my opinion as to the way the game is played in certain parts of the world.  This is a general Discussion Group that is what it’s called and what it is. Let’s show some consideration for others – that me taking the high moral ground.

I am proud to boast that I am always right - well until proven wrong. As a weak Human Being and also being a Male allows me the right to get things wrong, but please be gentle when you try and point that out, because like others I can play at being the Devils Advocate. But just what does that prove apart from causing problems.

[John Burzynski]

Maybe a bit of a different perspective here from a newbie who is passionate about golf and golf course architecture, maybe less than passionate compared to some here when it comes to Merion.

Any forum on the internet it designed for discussion.  Many times what is typed is true, other times blatantly false or a lie.  People type things to each other in forums that they would never say to each other in public...at least not without a hell of a fight, either verbal or physical.    I would NEVER accept anything posted in an internet forum as absolute gospel truth, at least not without credentials or documented proof to back up a statement.  That doesn't mean I don't believe what the other person is typing, but I also take it at face value, especially when opinion and fact converge, as many times happens on a site like this. 

An opinion in an internet forum (or in an essay posted on the internet) is exactly that, an opinion.  Unless it is documented, footnoted and cross referenced, it is subject to error or to others questioning the truth of what is posted.  Just like the academic world (or much of the business world), if you can't prove it, it ain't necessarily so. 

Not sure Ran or anyone else have the time or the inclination to fact check every posting or   'in my opinion' essay posted here.  And, hey, it is an OPINION and says so right on the box.  Feel free to differ with it, even challenge it with your own essay, that is part of the fun.  Ran is nice enough to offer a site for all of us to discuss and express our opinion, and maybe learn and enjoy along the way.  Why ruin that?  This is free (donate a bit of money to defray the cost of the site, I and others have) and better yet open to all opinions, let's keep it that way.

When I was in the academic world I used to see this petty bickering among professors all of the time.  Always over interpretation or opinion, rarely over fact.  It got this nasty and worse.

I love golf as much as the next guy, but when arguments, name calling and nastiness take over any golf discussion, me thinks we are taking ourselves too seriously. 

[Bob_Huntley]

Does anyone remember the play and movie, "Tea and Sympathy"?

In the movie, Deborah Kerr, the wife of a teacher in small prep school, feels sorry for a young student of 17 whose lack of interests in sports and manly feats of daring cause him some embarrassment. The girls giggle at his less than masculine walk.

To help him over his problems and to convince him that he is all male, she beds him. Afterward, she utters a sentence that we could all benefit by using. I could be off a bit but it went something like this.

"When you speak of this and you surely will, do be kind."

The invective concerning things Merion is quite astounding and should be tempered by the fact we are using Ran's site for what has become a rumble. We wouldn't do it in his living room, why here?



Bob

[Anthony Fowler]

I have to partly come to Wayne's defense since nobody else is willing to do so.

If somebody makes a factual claim, the burden of proof is on them to show that it is correct.  The burden is not on Wayne or anybody else to show that it is incorrect.  Wayne should not have to write his own essay about why somebody else's claims are false.  Instead the author of the original essay, the one making the bold claims, has the responsibility to cite his work and make a careful, compelling argument, admitting to the shortcomings of his argument and any alternative explanations for the facts he is presenting.

In general, not all posts need to have academic citations and should not be held to such a high degree of scrutiny.  However, when one is making as bold a claim as in the essay being discussed, extreme care should be paid to these details.

I am not agreeing with all of Wayne's emotions, views, and tactics.  However, he is correct in putting the burden of proof and accuracy on the authors and publishers of the claims being made.  I would think that Ran and Ben would have their own incentives to make sure that any factual claims being made in the "In My Opinion" section are correct.  This site loses a lot of credibility if published information presented as fact is untrue.  In general, I think Ran's philosophy is fine, but in this extreme case, where such bold claims are made, it would help to have other knowledgeable GCA historians review it before publishing.

[George Pazin]

...where such bold claims are made, it would help to have other knowledgeable GCA historians review it before publishing.

I think many on here would argue this is exactly what the site is about.

[John Kavanaugh]

Newsflash:  Posting on a website, a glorified blog no less, is not the same as being published.

A question:  When talking about losing credibility, who exactly would we be losing credibility with? 

[Mark Bourgeois]

Not Matt Drudge!

[Mark Bourgeois]

Dang, that was intended as a rhetorical question, wasn't it?

[TEPaul]

Anthony:

You make a damn good point there. But the thing is that essay, "The Missing Faces of Merion", was not exactly questioning Wayne's fact finding and some story of Wayne's, it was questioning the approximately 100 year architectural attribution of one of the most famous golf courses in the world and whether its architect, Hugh Wilson, did what the club and its history has always given him credit for. Matter of fact, the essay didn't just question Wilson's architectural attribution, it basically said it was not true as presented by the club and the men who were part of it back then. That's pretty serious stuff for a website like this one to put on here from a guy like the author of that essay who always basically said he was just trying to learn more about the history of Merion.

And you're right, he sent the essay to a few people for review who really don't know much of anything about the history of Merion and he definitely did not send it for review to anyone around here who does know Merion's architectural history well. One really should wonder about that, don't you think, Anthony?

The other thing that seems pretty dumb is for this site to let this author think he can just start correcting the mistakes he made in that essay which are so massive on this discussion group or even in a revised essay.

If that's what he thinks he should do Ran Morrissett should take down right now that essay that's on here now, "The Missing Faces of Merion" and in place of where it used to be state very clearly that it probably never should have been put on here in the first place, the way it was researched and written.

The other thing it seems like most everyone on here is missing is that Wayne Morrison is probably the last member/insider of a significant American golf course like Merion who is still willing to post about his course on this website.

It didn't used to be that way but it is now. This entire site, including its administrators should ask themselves why that is. If they're honest with their answer it isn't hard to tell what's gone wrong over the last 5-7 years particularly with participants on here slamming Merion and going after their "legend", Hugh Wilson! It seems like too many on here think a club like a Merion and the others should be subject to the Freedom of Information Act or something like a court of law with their records and that their members should adhere to that too or not speak their opinions on here.

This website is not supposed to be like a court of law, it's just a discussion group but the IMO pieces probably do need a whole lot more vetting than this "Missing Faces of Merion" got BEFORE it was put up on here claiming the architectural attribution to Hugh Wilson is wrong.

I've been on this website since the beginning and I always thought, and I still think that strong and collaborative ties with the most significant courses in the country and world with Golfclubatlas.com was the way to go, and of course that means the DG participation on here of those members, and the significant ones like historians and committee people at these significant clubs.

Unfortunately, that seems to be pretty much all gone now. Wayne seems to be one of the last ones still here. Pretty soon there may be none.   

Oh sure, I know the party line answer to that from the ones who are probably responsible for this----eg ALL THOSE MEMBERS and significant clubs are just so defensive in their on-going attempts to protect their legends and their untruthful architectural histories.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Oh sure, I know the party line answer to that from the ones who are probably responsible for this----eg ALL THOSE MEMBERS and significant clubs are just so defensive in their on-going attempts to protect their legends and their untruthful architectural histories.

Oh man, I was just going to counter you with that same argument. Now why did you have to go and edit that last paragraph in. 

[Sean_A]

Anthony:

You make a damn good point there. But the thing is that essay, "The Missing Faces of Merion", was not exactly questioning Wayne's fact finding and some story of Wayne's, it was questioning the approximately 100 year architectural attribution of one of the most famous golf courses in the world and whether its architect, Hugh Wilson, did what the club and its history has always given him credit for. Matter of fact, the essay didn't just question Wilson's architectural attribution, it basically said it was not true as presented by the club and the men who were part of it back then. That's pretty serious stuff for a website like this one to put on here from a guy like the author of that essay who always basically said he was just trying to learn more about the history of Merion.

And you're right, he sent the essay to a few people for review who really don't know much of anything about the history of Merion and he definitely did not send it for review to anyone around here who does know Merion's architectural history well. One really should wonder about that, don't you think, Anthony?

The other thing that seems pretty dumb is for this site to let this author think he can just start correcting the mistakes he made in that essay which are so massive on this discussion group or even in a revised essay.

If that's what he thinks he should do Ran Morrissett should take down right now that essay that's on here now, "The Missing Faces of Merion" and in place of where it used to be state very clearly that it probably never should have been put on here in the first place, the way it was researched and written.

The other thing it seems like most everyone on here is missing is that Wayne Morrison is probably the last member/insider of a significant American golf course like Merion who is still willing to post about his course on this website.

It didn't used to be that way but it is now. This entire site, including its administrators should ask themselves why that is. If they're honest with their answer it isn't hard to tell what's gone wrong over the last 5-7 years particularly with participants on here slamming Merion and going after their "legend", Hugh Wilson! It seems like too many on here think a club like a Merion and the others should be subject to the Freedom of Information Act or something like a court of law with their records and that their members should adhere to that too or not speak their opinions on here.

This website is not supposed to be like a court of law, it's just a discussion group but the IMO pieces probably do need a whole lot more vetting than this "Missing Faces of Merion" got BEFORE it was put up on here claiming the architectural attribution to Hugh Wilson is wrong.

I've been on this website since the beginning and I always thought, and I still think that strong and collaborative ties with the most significant courses in the country and world with Golfclubatlas.com was the way to go, and of course that means the DG participation on here of those members, and the significant ones like historians and committee people at these significant clubs.

Unfortunately, that seems to be pretty much all gone now. Wayne seems to be about the last one still standing.   

Tom P

I have a lot of sympathy for Wayne and understand his position, I just don't agree with it.  Given the dynamics of this board and the fact that hardly anybody presents their work in a true scholarly fashion (perhaps because it shouldn't be required?) on this board even to the point of not bothering to list a bibliography (which I believe to be an absolute minimum when writing a piece dealing with history), what is the next step?  You lot can bicker back and forth and get absolutely nowhere or you can attack the problem constructively.  It is no use putting the blame on Ran.  Whether or not you agree or not with Ran "endorsing" the Moriarty piece is beside the point in a months long rumble of besides the point.  It is down to you lot and probably more specifically Wayne.  As th saying goes, either crap or get off the pot.


Ciao

[TEPaul]

"Oh man, I was just going to counter you with that same argument. Now why did you have to go and edit that last paragraph in.     

Jim Kennedy:

Does this mean you and me think alike on something? Well, twiddledy-dee, that makes me so exciting I doubt if I'll sleep tonight! Man, how about that?

[Bill Brightly]

Newsflash:  Posting on a website, a glorified blog no less, is not the same as being published.



Actually, this episode has made me realize how dramatically the internet has allowed people to "get published" and get their message out there for public consumption. A mere 30 years ago, unless you had access to a prining press you would have had to go through some form of an editorial review process. The bigger the newspaper or magazine, the bigger the circulation, the more thorough the review process was likely to be. Not now! You can write a persuasive essay and pretty much have it in front of your intended audience within minutes and at no cost. And if your topic is the architectural history of a golf course or the work of an architect, this is a pretty darn powerful "blog". After all, we are the nuts who really care about this stuff, and we each  talk to (bore) hundreds of our golfing friends about our "knowledge" every year...

[PCCraig]

I agree with Bob H...well said.

[TEPaul]

"Does anyone remember the play and movie, "Tea and Sympathy"?


BobH:

You really are priceless bringing up something like "Tea and Sympathy". Sure I remember it---saw both.

I mean just roll that title around in your mind a few times---Tea and Sympathy!! It just doesn't get much sweeter or sound much sweeter than that, does it?


"When you speak of this and you surely will, do be kind."



That remark just sounds so, well I don't know, I guess it just sounds so Deborah Kerr!

[John Kavanaugh]

I agree with Bob H...well said.

I don't.  If I was in someones living room and they told what I considered a lie about something I love I would prefer to bloody their carpet to mine.  I do not know what world you guys live in that you don't call a douche a douche simply because you are face to face with that person.  As a matter of fact I find that the written word a more cautious medium than spoken words because of the time it takes to type and the editing process.  

[Jim_Kennedy]

JK,
That would be 'aren't,  wouldn't it?

TE,

[John Kavanaugh]

JK,
That would be 'aren't,  wouldn't it?

TE,

No, not at all.  I am saying that men should be more honest in person that on this open site where the whole world can read what they say and it becomes documented.  In other words, it is easier to spout off in private.  My wife insists that I text most of our communications because she says I type nicer than I speak.  It is so true because I know she saves my texts.

[John Kavanaugh]

On that note. During my wifes recent trip to California I got a bit lonely and texted her my ideas for her homecoming. My daughter picked up the phone and nausea ensued. 

[Jim_Kennedy]

TE,
If you think that Morrison, Macwood, Moriarty and you sometimes appear to be the stainless steel spheres in an esoteric game of pinball, then we have something else we can agree on. 

p.s. you should lay off the m&m&m's, bad for your teeth.   

[TEPaul]

TE,
If you think that Morrison, Macwood, Moriarty and you sometimes appear to be the stainless steel spheres in an esoteric game of pinball,"


Mr. Kennedy:

Damn, you're good. 'The stainless steel spheres in an esoteric game of pinball'??

That's one of the coolest descriptions I've ever heard on here.

Do you know what, Mr. Kennedy, I live right across the street from someone who is known in this community as "The M&M Heiress". When she got married recently and since she and her new husband's names begin with "C" she had a whole bunch of sacks of M&Ms made up that had "C&C" on them.

[Bill_McBride]

"Does anyone remember the play and movie, "Tea and Sympathy"?


BobH:

You really are priceless bringing up something like "Tea and Sympathy". Sure I remember it---saw both.

I mean just roll that title around in your mind a few times---Tea and Sympathy!! It just doesn't get much sweeter or sound much sweeter than that, does it?


"When you speak of this and you surely will, do be kind."



That remark just sounds so, well I don't know, I guess it just sounds so Deborah Kerr!

I think it was actually "Tee and Sympathy," had to do with an old guy who lost his swing!  (Referring to your truly here). 

[Jed Peters]

No, not at all.  I am saying that men should be more honest in person that on this open site where the whole world can read what they say and it becomes documented.  In other words, it is easier to spout off in private.  My wife insists that I text most of our communications because she says I type nicer than I speak.  It is so true because I know she saves my texts.

Whoa.

You type nicer than you speak?