And in the end, if there really is nothing new under the sun ...

[JMorgan]

... does golf course architecture come down to

sales
and
marketing?

Why or why not?

Discuss.

[Chip Gaskins]

one answer is no, no matter how many times Trump says his L.A. course is great, it is not.  boring, bland, over bunkered architecture, no matter the views...

one is yes, Tom Doak has said that designing several world class public courses that magazines don't mind putting on the cover because people can actually play them was a great thing for him and the courses....

so, it depends

[Eric Smith]

No I certainly don't think so. There's simply too many nice places that have yet to be discovered and/or untapped, oozing with potential for good golf.  Everyone hasn't been everywhere yet.  At least not in the sense of golf course development.  Great properties in the hands of wise developers and expert architects should continue to yield new and innovative designs that both challenge us and heighten our senses.

Good to great property in the right hands should trump sales and marketing most every time.

[paul cowley]

.....I'm not sure....does setting up a wholesale plumbing supply store count if we carry golf course related components?

[JMorgan]

.....I'm not sure....does setting up a wholesale plumbing supply store count if we carry golf course related components?

paul, due to restrictions written into my current contract, i cannot proffer business advice.  (and please stop calling me during dinner.  my kids don't need miniature floating tees for the bathtub.)   

i am thinking about some of the earlier discussions regarding template holes and no new land left, closing courses, and so on.

[Patrick_Mucci]

... does golf course architecture come down to

sales
and
marketing?

Why or why not?

Discuss.

JMorgan,

There are about nine basic notes in music yet the arrangements seem unlimited.

And, so it is with GCA.

[JMorgan]

... does golf course architecture come down to

sales
and
marketing?

Why or why not?

Discuss.

JMorgan,

There are about nine basic notes in music yet the arrangements seem unlimited.

And, so it is with GCA.

Pat, very nice metaphor.   So where would routing and acreage fit into your example?

[JMorgan]

one answer is no, no matter how many times Trump says his L.A. course is great, it is not.  boring, bland, over bunkered architecture, no matter the views...

one is yes, Tom Doak has said that designing several world class public courses that magazines don't mind putting on the cover because people can actually play them was a great thing for him and the courses....

so, it depends

Chip, I don't see much of a difference between a day spent at Trump National and CC of Atlantic City. 

[Tom_Doak]

JMorgan:

I think in the end, it comes down to LAND.

If you've got a good piece of land, you have a chance to be inspired to create something new.  If you don't, you won't.

[JMorgan]

JMorgan:

I think in the end, it comes down to LAND.

If you've got a good piece of land, you have a chance to be inspired to create something new.  If you don't, you won't.

Tom, couldn't you be inspired to shape a piece of perfect land onto an existing "imperfect" one and then route your holes?   

[Patrick_Mucci]

JMorgan,

As Tom Doak stated, the land dictates the arrangement of the musical/gca notes.

[Peter Pallotta]

JM -

yes, like everything else golf course architecture comes down to sales and marketing. But that doesn't mean we can't aspire to greatness, and then let the chips fall as they may.

Plus: say I couldn't market myself out of a paper bag -- well, even if I had any talent, it wouldn't do me much good.

The Old Dead Guys were Old Dead Guys because they knew marketing wasn't a dirty word.

Peter
I can't market myself out of a paper bag.....     

[Tom_Doak]

JMorgan:  Yes, we've actually talked about randomly shaping a flat site somewhere and then routing a course over the top of it.  We've never gone that far yet -- although Jim Urbina did lead one of the shapers in Lubbock to believe that the holes were playing in the opposite direction so he would shape them "backwards" and not think about what they looked like from the actual direction of play.

Sure, it sounds crazy, but it's only the macro version of Mr. Macdonald dropping pebbles on the plan of a green, and placing the undulations based on where the pebbles fell.

[JMorgan]

JM -

yes, like everything else golf course architecture comes down to sales and marketing. But that doesn't mean we can't aspire to greatness, and then let the chips fall as they may.

Plus: say I couldn't market myself out of a paper bag -- well, even if I had any talent, it wouldn't do me much good.

The Old Dead Guys were Old Dead Guys because they knew marketing wasn't a dirty word.

Peter
I can't market myself out of a paper bag.....     

Peter,
 
I recently rented the movie Big Night; it's about two brothers who come to Brooklyn from Italy, open a fine Italian restaurant, and find themselves struggling to stay open despite the quality of the cuisine.  While the older brother, Primo (the chef), refuses to compromise in any way, the younger, more business-savvy brother, Secondo (played by Stanley Tucci), realizes that he must adapt in some way to survive. 

Primo utters two of many classic lines in the movie that have obvious parallels for GCA:

Upon the suggestion that they add American favorites (like hot dogs) to the menu:
"They should come for the food!"

And about the competition up the block:
"Do you see what they do there? They rape the food!" 

...

[Rob Rigg]

Due to the current shortage of land, is it even more of a tragedy when the GCA fails to deliver with a stellar course on a great piece of land in a beautiful setting?

How much of the golfing public will get sold on a mediocre course being a great one because of sales and marketing?

75% is the over/under

[JMorgan]

Did the so-called Old Dead Guys have it easier than contemporary gca's because better tracts of land were more readily available for construction?   

(No Google Earth in the 1920s, though.)

[Michael Whitaker]

JMorgan:

I think in the end, it comes down to LAND.

If you've got a good piece of land, you have a chance to be inspired to create something new.  If you don't, you won't.

If this is true how do you explain Kingsbarns, The Ocean Course, Shadow Creek, Dundonald and The Rawls Course?

With enough talent, creativity and MONEY anything is possible.

[JMorgan]

Perhaps we have entered a new era in golf course architecture, not knowing it?

Will the natural golf course sites now come from "developing" countries?

[Mike_Young]

GOOD golf architecture comes down to the land....but mainline golf architecture is 98% sales and marketing....IMHO
sort of like classical music vs popular music

[RJ_Daley]

JMorgan, I tend to agree that there isn't much new under the sun besides sales and marketing.  In the begining, with the old dead guys, golf was new, and everyhole they created in an region that previously didn't have any golf was a new and surprising break-out idea.  Even if the typical list of 'old dead guys' were copying forms and patterns and templates they had seen on the old sod, or back east, they could still take those ideas to regions that didn't have golf, and be considered new and fresh and inovative, etc.

Now, if you take the collective 1500 or so on GCA.com, they have been everywhere and seen everything.  If they haven't personally seen it, they have the ubiquitous media in all its forms of print-photo, internet, film-video, and the descriptive narrative in print to inform them of almost all possibilities and efforts made in the golf design field.  So, it is a tall order to come up with anything new, except the sales and marketing.  And even the marketting and sales verbage is nothing new, and actually trite.  

I don't think it comes down to finding a new kind of land.  Sure no two pieces of land are exactly alike.  But, the way the holes are designed and routed across the land is generally all been done in one fashion or another, and architects have staked out some distinctive styles.  

But whose style is actually new, in comparison of all the old dead guys, and all the moderns?  Unless someone builds an artificial turf course.... oh wait they even did that...  

[JMorgan]

GOOD golf architecture comes down to the land....but mainline golf architecture is 98% sales and marketing....IMHO
sort of like classical music vs popular music

Mike, so you put that 2% independent of any promotion?  No matter what, they'll come and play the course.  And so will the grandkids, etc. 

[JMorgan]

No I certainly don't think so. There's simply too many nice places that have yet to be discovered and/or untapped, oozing with potential for good golf.  Everyone hasn't been everywhere yet.  At least not in the sense of golf course development.  Great properties in the hands of wise developers and expert architects should continue to yield new and innovative designs that both challenge us and heighten our senses.

Good to great property in the right hands should trump sales and marketing most every time.

Eric, where do you think great property still exists on this Big Blue Marble to trump sales and marketing?

[TEPaul]

Oh no, Mr Morgan, there are all kinds of new things to offer in architecture in the future, and, in my opinion, a number of them should be tried. At that point just let time tell if they will endure!

[JMorgan]

JMorgan, I tend to agree that there isn't much new under the sun besides sales and marketing.  In the begining, with the old dead guys, golf was new, and everyhole they created in an region that previously didn't have any golf was a new and surprising break-out idea.  Even if the typical list of 'old dead guys' were copying forms and patterns and templates they had seen on the old sod, or back east, they could still take those ideas to regions that didn't have golf, and be considered new and fresh and inovative, etc.

Now, if you take the collective 1500 or so on GCA.com, they have been everywhere and seen everything.  If they haven't personally seen it, they have the ubiquitous media in all its forms of print-photo, internet, film-video, and the descriptive narrative in print to inform them of almost all possibilities and efforts made in the golf design field.  So, it is a tall order to come up with anything new, except the sales and marketing.  And even the marketting and sales verbage is nothing new, and actually trite.  

I don't think it comes down to finding a new kind of land.  Sure no two pieces of land are exactly alike.  But, the way the holes are designed and routed across the land is generally all been done in one fashion or another, and architects have staked out some distinctive styles.  

But whose style is actually new, in comparison of all the old dead guys, and all the moderns?  Unless someone builds an artificial turf course.... oh wait they even did that...  

Dick, how, if at all, do you think a unique style could supercede what has been done up to this point?

[JMorgan]

Oh no, Mr Morgan, there are all kinds of new things to offer in architecture in the future, and, in my opinion, a number of them should be tried. At that point just let time tell if they will endure!

Tom, what would you consider a new thing that is still under consideration?