The Biarritz continued

[Sean_A]

My time line is not wrong. 

Of course it is.

Yale preceeded CPC by two years.

Yale is over a chasm and has the classic Biarritz green.

# 16 CPC has no such green and doesn't resemble a Biarritz anymore
than # 15 at CPC.

I indicated that CP replaced the others as the most literal type when it was built.  This suggests that water was still part of the concept of a Biarritz, at least for B Bahto.

First you have to include the rest of the sentence that you left out.

George stated:
"First version built at Piping Rock.  Most literal version had been 9th at Yale or 7th at Fishers Island until if was ascertained by Dr Alister MacKenzie that the 16th at Cypress Point WAS ORIGINALLY SUGGESTED BY SETH RAYNOR AS PART OF HIS ORIGINAL ROUTING THERE."

Yale, completed two years prior to CPC has water and all of the other elements found in a Biarritz.  # 16 at CPC merely possesses a carry over water, just like the previous hole, # 15. 

My question was more about why do some CBM Biarritz's have water and some don't. 

I think it's site and opportunity specific.

Where they could incorporate water they did and where they couldn't they didn't.

Perhaps the water, as Bill suggests, is a coincidence and had nothing to do with CBM's concept of a Biarritz and it is all about the green. 

I don't think it's coincidence, I think it's opportunity, like the 11th at The Creek.  Where the site had the potential to incorporate a biarritz they did so, and if the site allowed for a carry over water to the green, they incorporated it.

However, it seems strange that Bahto would suggest the front bunkers between the water and the green at Yale's Biarritz represent the cliff face at the original Biarritz. 

I don't find it strange, I find it to be his interpretation, which may have validity........ or not.  It's unfortunate that CBM didn't leave more written evidence of his thoughts, designs and work.

As David points out and I have heard before, could the 16th at N Berwick be the true model of a Biarritz?  It sure fits better, but the name of that hole is appropriately, Gate.  Also, I have never heard of CBM using this hole as a model or the that the hole was known as Chasm. 

MacDonald explains his designs at NGLA in "Scotland's Gift".
After he identifies the source of his replicas, then he states that all the other holes at NGLA are more or less COMPOSITE, but some are absolutely original.

The Biarritz may be one of his composite holes, the blend of a heroic carry to a unique, large green.

If there is confusion about the origin, it could help explain why some Biarritz's have water and some don't and why what appears to be a true Biarritz, the 16th at CP, isn't acknowledged as so. 

I don't think that there's any confusion about the origin.
The 9th at Piping Rock is the original Biarritz in America, every other Biarritz is derived from it, with and without water.

Of course maybe the Chasm hole at Biarritz had a large swale in the green as well as hitting hitting over a its name sake, a chasm.

In the few pictures/drawings I've seen, it didn't appear so.

Pat

Don't be silly.  My timeline indicated CP being the last course built and that the 16th isn't a Biarritz - hence the reason I asked why.  Stop focusing on side issues and perhaps you can help with the point.  

I don't care when the first was Biarritz was built.  I was more interested in what the salient features of a Biarritz are which point toward it being the most literal.  Yale and Fishers were listed by Bahto.  Yale plays over water and seems to have a classic Biarritz green.  Fishers plays over rough country and doesn't quite have a classic Biarritz green because the swale isn't incorporated into the green.  This made me wonder about the 16th at CP.  I know the green is completely different, but it does have a chasm, which is what we do know for sure the of the original hole called Chasm at Biarritz had.  I find this to be an interesting question especially as I can find no mention of the Chasm green in Scotland's Gift which sheds light on the rather odd contours of CBM's Biarritz's.  

If the actual chasm of a Biarritz is rooted in opportunity then it would stand to reason that the salient feature of a Biarritz is the green, not the carry to the green.  I find this interesting as well.  Why the secondary importance of the carry?  

David

I wonder if Chasm had a bailout left.  I know in the later half of its short life the tee was moved around to the left to make the hole easier.  


Ciao

[David Stamm]

David,

In The Spirit of St. Andrews, MacKenzie explicitely states that Marion Hollins demonstrated that shot to Raynor, not himself.

Pete, I understand. I did not say it was shown to him. Nevertheless, AM did indeed envision the hole as a par 4 initially. Perhaps I didn't articulate myself well enough (a common trait w/ me ). In addition, in The Spirit of St Andrews it could be interpreted that Raynor thought it was "a pity that the ocean carry was too long" and then Hollins after telling AM this demonstrated the shot. Why else would she try to convince AM not to make it a par 4 without showing him it could be done. AM had great respect for her, but I seriously doubt he would've changed the hole without her proving to him that the shot could be executed. It any case, it really doesn't matter when it happened, the hole in my mind is no more a Chasm hole then the 15th.

[TEPaul]

David Stamm and others:

I couldn't agree with you more that CBM must have taken the idea for his huge Biarritz swales from #16 North Berwick. I can't imagine he wasn't familiar with it when he began doing that concept over here.

JMorgan:

There is nothing about Piping Rock's Biarritz which is particularly hogsback. The fairway approach before the swale really isn't and the green itself is one of the bigger and flatter greens you've ever seen. Of couse there are those enormous coffin line bunkers in either side.

The only Macdonald/Raynor biarritz that looks anything like my understanding of the hole in France is Fishers Island's.

[David Stamm]

 [/quote]

 
David

I wonder if Chasm had a bailout left.  I know in the later half of its short life the tee was moved around to the left to make the hole easier.  


Ciao
[/quote]

I would think that would be the reason for the tee being shifted left. Unfortunately, the photos that we know about not only not show the green, but the area to the left as well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

If the actual chasm of a Biarritz is rooted in opportunity then it would stand to reason that the salient feature of a Biarritz is the green, not the carry to the green. 

I find this interesting as well. 

Why the secondary importance of the carry?

They're interwoven into the fabric of the hole.

The length, the carry, the size of the green, the configuration of the green and its surrounds.

As a medium to short hole a running shot would be more difficult to execute.

But, as a long hole, a running shot might be the shot of choice.

With three distinct tiers the hole presents more variety in the approach at  longer distances.

The nature of the feature over which the forced carry is required is largely immaterial.

While water provides a dramatic element it's not required in order to present the golfer with the architectural dynamics of the hole, nor does it change the playing requirements.

[JMorgan]

JMorgan:

There is nothing about Piping Rock's Biarritz which is particularly hogsback. The fairway approach before the swale really isn't and the green itself is one of the bigger and flatter greens you've ever seen. Of couse there are those enormous coffin line bunkers in either side.

The only Macdonald/Raynor biarritz that looks anything like my understanding of the hole in France is Fishers Island's.

Tom, I know you're pretty old, but you weren't around in 1913, were you?

Remember, before you answer, Pat Mucci swears he wasn't at NGLA or Garden City in 1911.

[Ronald Montesano]

If it mattes, disciple Seth Raynor's Biarritz at Fox Chapel, #17, carries only land.  No water in site.  The Cape hole there goes around marsh rather than water.  The reverse Redan has the most vicious green I believe I've played.  Thanks to a knowledge of the Biarritz, I was the only guy in my foursome to bang a low, hard three iron into Fox Chapel 17 and run it through the dip to the back tier.

[TEPaul]

JMorgan:

What are you saying about the biarritz at Piping Rock? Was it once hogbacked and then later changed? If so, I never knew that and I grew up at that course.

What I do know is C.B. wanted those two polo fields for golf holes and they wouldn't let him have them. We all on here think C.B. was the most dominant figure out there but I guarantee you there were about a thousand people in and around Long Island and those clubs at that time who definitely weren't intimidated by him and that included the ultra powerful polo interests back then. I think the most interesting thing about Macdonald, is, as big a ego and curmudgeon as he was and apparently wanted to be, ultimately he was a very clever guy who could spot his match in a New York second.

[JMorgan]

JMorgan:

What are you saying about the biarritz at Piping Rock? Was it once hogbacked and then later changed? If so, I never knew that and I grew up at that course.

What I do know is C.B. wanted those two polo fields for golf holes and they wouldn't let him have them. We all on here think C.B. was the most dominant figure out there but I guarantee you there were about a thousand people in and around Long Island and those clubs at that time who definitely weren't intimidated by him and that included the ultra powerful polo interests back then. I think the most interesting thing about Macdonald, is, as big a ego and curmudgeon as he was and apparently wanted to be, ultimately he was a very clever guy who could spot his match in a New York second.

Tom, the pictures of the hole c.1913 demonstrate the hogback, plus that is how the hole was reviewed when Piping Rock opened for play.

Not too long ago, I found pictures of CBM's garden among some old books of Long Island homes.  Reading between the lines, I got the distinct impression that Mrs. Macdonald kept Charlie's ego pretty much in check, as well. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

JMorgan,

Are you sure the photo is labeled correctly ?

Can you tell, by looking at the photo, that it's definitely # 9 ?

# 6 had an interesting tier at the back of the green

The foot pad to # 9 green would seem to negate it being a hog back, especially if you examine the hog back greens that CBM-SR-CB designed, and the length of their holes that had hog backs in them.

Since Tom Doak, with Pete Dye, worked on Piping Rock, perhaps he's familiar with the history of the hole[/b]

[Tom_Doak]

When we did the work at Piping Rock, the earliest documentary evidence we had to go on was a 1926 aerial photo.  It's possible the hole was changed between 1913 and 1926; I would love to see the picture that JMorgan references.

Macdonald did describe the Biarritz for his "ideal course" as having a hog's back in front of the green and falling off more to the left side, I think it was ... not the symmetrical design we have all come to know.  But, recall that the Biarritz we know is NOT at National, and that the Chicago Golf Club version is Raynor's redesign ... the 1913 Piping Rock would have been Macdonald's earliest attempt at the hole.

[Jim Nugent]

David Stamm and others:

I couldn't agree with you more that CBM must have taken the idea for his huge Biarritz swales from #16 North Berwick. I can't imagine he wasn't familiar with it when he began doing that concept over here.

Why did he name the hole "Biarritz" in this case? 

[Rich Goodale]

David Stamm and others:

I couldn't agree with you more that CBM must have taken the idea for his huge Biarritz swales from #16 North Berwick. I can't imagine he wasn't familiar with it when he began doing that concept over here.

Why did he name the hole "Biarritz" in this case? 

Maybe because North Berwick was commonly known as "The Biarritz of the North" at the turn of the last century?

[Sean_A]

David Stamm and others:

I couldn't agree with you more that CBM must have taken the idea for his huge Biarritz swales from #16 North Berwick. I can't imagine he wasn't familiar with it when he began doing that concept over here.

Why did he name the hole "Biarritz" in this case? 

Maybe because North Berwick was commonly known as "The Biarritz of the North" at the turn of the last century?

Rihc

I had a look yesterday for the source of this trade name for N Berwick.  Perhaps a railway company had something to do it - in any case, I had no luck, but I recall seeing "Biarritz of the North" once or twice as one and the same as N Berwick.  Its another reason why I think the 16th at NB is a major source of inspiration for a Biarritz design. 

Ciao

[JMorgan]

Pat, Tom ... just saw your posts, I'll try to find the articles/pictures this evening.   (I'm not sure if I came across them at the USGA library or on SEGL (for those of you who would like to do some digging in the next 10 hours) .)  I may have posted this info on one of the previous Biarritz threads, too.

Update: 7:06EST ... hunting through the morass ...

Emmet review:
http://photoarchive.usga.org/mbwtemp/GolfUSGABulletinNovember1913.pdf

[Thomas MacWood]

In Macdonald's 1907 article 'The Ideal Course' he listed out and described the 18 holes of his dream course.

15. 210 yards. Suggested by the 12th Biarritz, making sharp hog back in the middle of the course. Stop 30 yards from the hole bunkered to the right of the green and good ground left of plateau green.

He also listed out some of his philosophies, one of which was "The tendency to widen courses is much to be lamented. Forty-five to sixty yards is plenty wide enough. This is wider than St. Andrews used to be thirty years ago, when the course was better than it is now. I note that Mr. Deally, Mr. Lucas and Mr. Charles Hutchings in laying out the new course (the last word in golf) at Sandwich have kept a width of rather under than over fifty yards."

His comments about the change at St.Andrews mirror Hutchinson's. It is also interesting to read his comments about Princes.

There is wealth of written material on the NGLA, but because it did not have a Biarritz there is not as much written about that hole concept generally speaking. What was Macdonald's first Biarritz?

[TEPaul]

"What was Macdonald's first Biarritz?"

Probably Piping Rock's. No hogsback on that one. Maybe the changed it but I doubt it.

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
I believe the hogs back is the first plateau, which is sometimes a part of the green and sometimes not. In the case of Piping Rock it is green surface.

[TEPaul]

The first plateau at Piping Rock is hogsbacked and part of the green? No it isn't. The only green surface on that hole is past the swale and it's really flat.

[Ally Mcintosh]

By looking at the course analysis on this website, the photo of Piping Rock's 9th shows what is a perfect interpretation of the Biarittz, hogsback complete before the swale and after a cross bunker and not as part of the green...

I can't see any argument... I haven't seen the course first hand though

[Thomas MacWood]

My mistake about the green surface at Piping Rock.

The more important point IMO is Macdonald's description of the hole. One often thinks of a Biarritz as having a deep gutter bisecting two plateaus where as Macdonald's concept was a sharp hogs back 30 yards short of the green.  A convex description as opposed to concave description.

Based upon his description one wonders if ever intended the hogs back to be green surface.

[TEPaul]

Ally:

I probably shouldn't argue with an expert researcher like Tom MacWood when he says the front section (before the swale) on Piping Rock's Biarritz is hogbacked and greenspace? I only grew up at Piping Rock and played that course about five hundred times. The Biarritz shot on that hole was the first golf shot I was ever taught. That front section was a big flat fairway plateau back then in the late '40s and it still is today, but if he says it's hogsbacked and green space I guess it must be athough I never saw a flag on that section and if there had been one it probably would've stimped at about 1. But what do I know, I only grew up there so he will probably tell me again that must mean I was in a Holiday Inn Express or something.  

[Ally Mcintosh]

OK... Tom has admitted he got it wrong about the green...

But, can someone explain to me what shape a 'hogsback' is?... I believe it to be flat (in other words a small plateau)... not a convex ridge

In which case we are all just mixing our terms up...

I would think a Biarittz is over 200 yards long with a cross bunker (or chasm) about forty yards short followed by a plateau (not green) then swale (not green), then another plateau at the same height (this time green)... If a hogsback is flat, it would seem that we are all in agreement...

This demands of the player a long shot that lands short of the green and runs through the swale.... Whether modern examples use the green at the front or not is somewhat irrelevant although in my opinion, a pin position there takes away from the initial intent...

[Thomas MacWood]

From M-W dictionary, from 1840:

a ridge of land formed by the outcropping edges of tilted strata; broadly : a ridge with a sharp summit and steeply sloping sides

[TEPaul]

"But, can someone explain to me what shape a 'hogsback' is?..."

Ally:

A hogsback golf architectural feature is very much convex. In a Macdonald architecture context think the tee shot fairway of NGLA's #5---really convex from which the ball distinctly falls off particularly on the left. That hole is actually named "Hogsback" on the card.