The Biarritz continued

[ANTHONYPIOPPI]

There has been much discussion about the Biarritz Hole concept with some postulating that Macdonald was copying a hole at the original Biarritz course even though no renderings of the entire hole are known to exist and there are no known writings of Macdonald articulating his philosophy of his interpretation of the hole.

However, Charles Banks, writing in 1929 about the 9th at Yale, a Raynor design and the most famous of the Biarritz holes, writes, "... or the Ninth, which is, in some features, suggestive of the Biarritz Hole."

"Suggestive," not copy, "suggestive," in "some features."

Fight amongst yourselves.

Anthony

[Bill_McBride]

If the original Biarritz was the chasm hole at Biarritz, France, as has been the historical theory, then every subsequent Biarritz hole would have to be suggestive since there just aren't that many chasms around!

Every Biarritz hole I've seen has been different from the others in setting and topography, so I suspect that they are all "suggestive" of the original and following Biarritz holes.

That's one thing I like about the Macdonald Raynor template holes - they are all "suggestive" of the other examples of that particular template depending on where they are.  The word "template" seems to mean they are all the same as the template model, where that simply isn't true, at least in my limited experience.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Anthony,

I think the concept of the Biarritz is fairly well defined, although the actual configuration my vary.

It's a large surface with a trough running through the approximate mid-section of that surface.

Variations on the theme relate to the depth of the trough, maintainance of the surfaces bisected by the trough and the elevation of the surfaces.

In most cases, I believe that the length of the hole is also well defined.

You don't see short or intermediate Biarritz's from the back tee.

They tend to be long, with 190 to 230 not being uncommon distances to the bottom of the trough.

I think they're an ideal concept for a windy site since they provide ample margins, yet, they place demands on proper planning and execution.

While I like the 9th at Yale, I prefer Biarritz's where the tee and green have modest elevation differentials

[Matt MacIver]

And most commonly accepted versions have full bunkers flanking both the left and right side of the green. 

[Sean_A]

I find it interesting that the Biarritz came to be interpreted though the contouring of the green.  My question is, why isn't the 16th at Cypress a Biarritz?  There is a chasm to carry, as the original was meant to do.  There must be other examples.  When did the concept get mainly limited to the contours of the green?

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

When CBM included the Biarritz in his designs.

I've never heard anyone refer to an identifying characteristic/quality of a Biarritz as a carry over a ravine.

[JMorgan]

After letting this one gestate for a few years, I am convinced that the original intention was a hogback/swale/green design like the first one at Piping Rock.  Later versions were an open interpretation of the original.  The hole called for a low running shot that hit the hogback, disappeared in the chasm, and reappeared on the green.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

When CBM included the Biarritz in his designs.

I've never heard anyone refer to an identifying characteristic/quality of a Biarritz as a carry over a ravine.

George Bahto writes that the 16th at Cypress became the most literal example of the type when it was built.  Previously Yale and Fisher's were the most literal type.  I know Yale's Biarritz goes over water and I can only assume Fisher's does the same.  Somewhere along the line of CBM building these holes the idea shifted from a straight water carry (as opposed to a Cape) to a green shape to identify the hole.  

Ciao

[Bill_McBride]

Sean, if this were a Broadway play, I think the part of the chasm would be played by the swale.

 

[paul cowley]

After letting this one gestate for a few years, I am convinced that the original intention was a hogback/swale/green design like the first one at Piping Rock.  Later versions were an open interpretation of the original.  The hole called for a low running shot that hit the hogback, disappeared in the chasm, and reappeared on the green.

That, James, is very interesting.

I have yet to play Piping Rock, but what you have described makes the most sense as to why the hole might have developed...at least as per the need for a low running shot.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sean,

When CBM included the Biarritz in his designs.

I've never heard anyone refer to an identifying characteristic/quality of a Biarritz as a carry over a ravine.

George Bahto writes that the 16th at Cypress became the most literal example of the type when it was built.  

CPC was built in 1928, 15 years after Piping Rock.

Previously Yale and Fisher's were the most literal type.  

I know Yale's Biarritz goes over water and I can only assume Fisher's does the same.  

Somewhere along the line of CBM building these holes the idea shifted from a straight water carry (as opposed to a Cape) to a green shape to identify the hole.  

Sean, you've got your time lines mixed up.

CBM designed a classic Biarritz at Piping Rock in 1913, 13 years prior to Yale and 4 years prior to Fisher's Island and 15 years prior to CPC.


Piping Rock's Biarritz is not over water.

However, the 11th at The Creek, designed in 1925 is.

[David Stamm]

I think a case could be made that North Berwick's 16th green inspired CBM's concept for the Biarritz green. If I'm not mistaken, the hole was called Biarritz, not Chasm, by CBM. If the hole was supposed to be a copy of the hole in France, why would he not call it what it was called there, a Chasm? He called the 4th at NGLA Redan because the 15th at North Berwick inspired the hole, why not here? This is just a thought, but perhaps the nature of the green at 16 at NB reminded him of the hole in Biarritz, France because of the 'Chasm" feature found in the green. Is this crazy?

[Sean_A]

Sean,

When CBM included the Biarritz in his designs.

I've never heard anyone refer to an identifying characteristic/quality of a Biarritz as a carry over a ravine.

George Bahto writes that the 16th at Cypress became the most literal example of the type when it was built.  

CPC was built in 1928, 15 years after Piping Rock.

Previously Yale and Fisher's were the most literal type.  

I know Yale's Biarritz goes over water and I can only assume Fisher's does the same.  

Somewhere along the line of CBM building these holes the idea shifted from a straight water carry (as opposed to a Cape) to a green shape to identify the hole.  

Sean, you've got your time lines mixed up.

CBM designed a classic Biarritz at Piping Rock in 1913, 13 years prior to Yale and 4 years prior to Fisher's Island and 15 years prior to CPC.


Piping Rock's Biarritz is not over water.

However, the 11th at The Creek, designed in 1925 is.

Pat

My time line is not wrong.  I indicated that CP replaced the others as the most literal type when it was built.  This suggests that water was still part of the concept of a Biarritz, at least for B Bahto. 

My question was more about why do some CBM Biarritz's have water and some don't.  Perhaps the water, as Bill suggests, is a coincidence and had nothing to do with CBM's concept of a Biarritz and it is all about the green.  However, it seems strange that Bahto would suggest the front bunkers between the water and the green at Yale's Biarritz represent the cliff face at the original Biarritz. 

As David points out and I have heard before, could the 16th at N Berwick be the true model of a Biarritz?  It sure fits better, but the name of that hole is appropriately, Gate.  Also, I have never heard of CBM using this hole as a model or the that the hole was known as Chasm.  If there is confusion about the origin, it could help explain why some Biarritz's have water and some don't and why what appears to be a true Biarritz, the 16th at CP, isn't acknowledged as so.  Of course maybe the Chasm hole at Biarritz had a large swale in the green as well as hitting hitting over a its name sake, a chasm.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I have always assumed what JMorgan said above... That it is the green shape that defines the playing strategy of what the Biarritz is... In addition, the fact that the Biarritz has to also be a plus 200 yard hole is essential to the playability, meaning that there is no other option than to land the ball short and run it through the swale to the back (at least 100 years ago anyway)...

Remember, CBM's template par 3's ran in order of length: Short (110 - 145), Eden (145-170), Redan (170-190), Biarritz (190-220)...

The Chasm for me was somewhat incidental although a representation was usually included by using fronting bunkers... It also meant there was some need for a penal carry as opposed to having the whole length open...

... as for the 16th at North Berwick, I always presumed that this may have been in his mind when noticing the Chasm hole in the first place... although that green has very different playing options to approach...

Going back to Anthony's original post, CBM never meant his holes to be a "copy"... they were always meant as "representation" of certain playing strategies... He says this himself I believe in 'Scotland's Gift'...

[BCrosby]

CBM's Biarritz at Mid-O does not have a water carry.

[Michael]

Could someone offer a quick short description of a "Biarritz" holes physical attributes?...I got the general drift of it ..but it is a bit foggy still in my mind.

Thanks

Michael.C

[Sean_A]

Could someone offer a quick short description of a "Biarritz" holes physical attributes?...I got the general drift of it ..but it is a bit foggy still in my mind.

Thanks

Michael.C

Michael

According to Bahto:

-22-245 yards

-strip bunkers guard sides and rear of the green - a framing bunker short of green often used

-large green with a deep swale in the middle or front (I think it is more accepted that the swale should be in the middle)

Ciao

[Michael]

Thank you Sean.

Cheers..

Michael

[Jim Nugent]

Was there a swale on or before the green of the chasm hole in France, other than the chasm itself?

If not, it seems odd that CBM named the hole "Biarritz."  The swale does not mimic the chasm, either in appearance or how it plays.  For example, no one runs their ball through the chasm.  Did golfers play low running shots onto the chasm hole?  

If #16 at N. Berwick inspired the hole, why didn't CBM name it "Berwick"?  Also the green at N. Berwick looks and plays different, doesn't it?  

Was CBM really paying homage to any famous holes with the Biarritz, or was it a CBM original?  I don't mean with the name, but the design.  A few questions I have about the chasm hole as the inspiration:  

1.  Did CBM ever see it?
2.  It was NLE by the time CBM started building his great courses, IIRC for a long time;
3.  Was it famous as a great hole in Europe?
4.  Did it have a swale on or right before the green?  

I've forgotten who, but a few months ago here on GCA. com someone presented convincing (to me) evidence that the green at SLCC's Biarritz always had the swale in it.  

[Sean_A]

Was there a swale on or before the green of the chasm hole in France, other than the chasm itself?

If not, it seems odd that CBM named the hole "Biarritz."  The swale does not mimic the chasm, either in appearance or how it plays.  For example, no one runs their ball through the chasm.  Did golfers play low running shots onto the chasm hole?  

If #16 at N. Berwick inspired the hole, why didn't CBM name it "Berwick"?  Also the green at N. Berwick looks and plays different, doesn't it?  

Was CBM really paying homage to any famous holes with the Biarritz, or was it a CBM original?  I don't mean with the name, but the design.  A few questions I have about the chasm hole as the inspiration:  

1.  Did CBM ever see it?
2.  It was NLE by the time CBM started building his great courses, IIRC for a long time;
3.  Was it famous as a great hole in Europe?
4.  Did it have a swale on or right before the green?  

I've forgotten who, but a few months ago here on GCA. com someone presented convincing (to me) evidence that the green at SLCC's Biarritz always had the swale in it.  

Jim

I too wondered if the Biarritz wasn't a true CBM original, perhaps inspired by the 16th at North Berwick or a combination of inspirations form NB and Biarritz. 

Ciao

[john_stiles]

Sean,

I always wondered the same as well regardng the Biarritz Chasm hole and Gate at NB.

George answered my questions many years ago now.  It was pretty straightforward just like George.   

It goes something like this, "Because CBM said the Biarritz was modeled after the Chasm hole at Biarritz."     Bahto's 'The Evangelist of Golf' has a reprint of CBM's Feb1, 2007 Golf Illustrated article stating as much.

While a 'copy' of another hole,  the Biarritz clearly seems to be an interpretation, or CBM's visualization of the hole's strategy.    There are so few opportunities for a true Biarritz hole,  save the 16th at Cypress and a few other special places on earth.

[Tom Yost]

Where can I find an example of a Biarritz green in the Phoenix area?

I distinctly remember this feature on a green at the Mummy Mountain / Anasazi Golf course (Roy Dye?).  This course was later reworked by Art Hills (now called StoneCreek) and I believe the feature is NLE.

[Patrick_Mucci]

My time line is not wrong. 

Of course it is.

Yale preceeded CPC by two years.

Yale is over a chasm and has the classic Biarritz green.

# 16 CPC has no such green and doesn't resemble a Biarritz anymore
than # 15 at CPC.

I indicated that CP replaced the others as the most literal type when it was built.  This suggests that water was still part of the concept of a Biarritz, at least for B Bahto.

First you have to include the rest of the sentence that you left out.

George stated:
"First version built at Piping Rock.  Most literal version had been 9th at Yale or 7th at Fishers Island until if was ascertained by Dr Alister MacKenzie that the 16th at Cypress Point WAS ORIGINALLY SUGGESTED BY SETH RAYNOR AS PART OF HIS ORIGINAL ROUTING THERE."

Yale, completed two years prior to CPC has water and all of the other elements found in a Biarritz.  # 16 at CPC merely possesses a carry over water, just like the previous hole, # 15. 

My question was more about why do some CBM Biarritz's have water and some don't. 

I think it's site and opportunity specific.

Where they could incorporate water they did and where they couldn't they didn't.

Perhaps the water, as Bill suggests, is a coincidence and had nothing to do with CBM's concept of a Biarritz and it is all about the green. 

I don't think it's coincidence, I think it's opportunity, like the 11th at The Creek.  Where the site had the potential to incorporate a biarritz they did so, and if the site allowed for a carry over water to the green, they incorporated it.

However, it seems strange that Bahto would suggest the front bunkers between the water and the green at Yale's Biarritz represent the cliff face at the original Biarritz. 

I don't find it strange, I find it to be his interpretation, which may have validity........ or not.  It's unfortunate that CBM didn't leave more written evidence of his thoughts, designs and work.

As David points out and I have heard before, could the 16th at N Berwick be the true model of a Biarritz?  It sure fits better, but the name of that hole is appropriately, Gate.  Also, I have never heard of CBM using this hole as a model or the that the hole was known as Chasm. 

MacDonald explains his designs at NGLA in "Scotland's Gift".
After he identifies the source of his replicas, then he states that all the other holes at NGLA are more or less COMPOSITE, but some are absolutely original.

The Biarritz may be one of his composite holes, the blend of a heroic carry to a unique, large green.

If there is confusion about the origin, it could help explain why some Biarritz's have water and some don't and why what appears to be a true Biarritz, the 16th at CP, isn't acknowledged as so. 

I don't think that there's any confusion about the origin.
The 9th at Piping Rock is the original Biarritz in America, every other Biarritz is derived from it, with and without water.

Of course maybe the Chasm hole at Biarritz had a large swale in the green as well as hitting hitting over a its name sake, a chasm.

In the few pictures/drawings I've seen, it didn't appear so.

[David Stamm]

Let's not forget that MacKenzie originally envisioned 16 at CPC to be a par 4. Only after Hollins hit a shot to the proposed greensite did the hole become a par 3.

[Pete Lavallee]

David,

In The Spirit of St. Andrews, MacKenzie explicitely states that Marion Hollins demonstrated that shot to Raynor, not himself.