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Mark_Rowlinson

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Most characterful short courses
« on: September 06, 2008, 10:28:39 AM »
The pictures of Windermere (for which many thanks) remind me that there are a number of really characterful courses in the very short brigade, Painswick for one. Here we have another. Let's set an arbitrary maximum length of 5,500 yards for an 18-hole course. Which are your most characterful?

Sean_A

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2008, 11:36:40 AM »
Mark

You may know this course, Halesowen, not far off the M5 just the other side of the motorway from Brum.  I played it the other week and wish I had my camera.  Its quirky, but for a very short course (~5500 yards) it still has a par of 69 and a SSS of 68!  You can guess that means a load of half par holes are on the table.  Interestingly, the par 3s are very good and the lone par 5 is as well.  Four par 4s are less than 300 yards which creates opportunity for two long and tough par 4s.  To top it off the clubhouse is a stately one and the former home of the poet/landscape designer, W Shenstone. 

While not in the class of Painswick for quirk (what is?), Halesowen does alright.

Gullane #3 is also a very fine short course comfortably under 5500 yards. 

Of the short courses I have seen and at 5571 yards from the tips, just outside your 5500 yard requirement, I nominate Kington as the ultimate short course.   

Ciao
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 11:43:11 AM by Sean Arble »
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Tommy Williamsen

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2008, 11:44:22 AM »
Mark and Sean, I will be coming to England Oct 28 -Nov 6.  I'll have some time to play.  Is Painswick really worth the time?  I will be going from Oxford to Devon and may get up to Woodhall Spa and Ganton (I have a niece in Hull).
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 12:37:46 PM by Tommy Williamsen »
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Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2008, 12:34:37 PM »
The nine-hole Forest Park GC in Adams, Ma.

-Par of 68 (2 go-rounds), 5183 yds. from the 'tips'  ;)
-Some wild and undulating terrain w/small but tamer greens, although there are only three greens that are 'flat'.
-no fairway bunkers ( not needed, see above) 
-a 'volcano' par 4 and other well sited greens, one in particular seems to be growing right out of a ridge w/a steep drop off to the left.
-one down and one uphill par 3;
-a couple of holes w/ hidden greens and fronting swales that will kick a ball toward a bunker or a steep drop off at the side if you don't make the surface.
-uphill, downhill and side hill drives from every par 4, save one.
-you hit over roadways eight times if playing 18 holes.

Just a real throwback and fun to play.  The view of Mt. Greylock to the west is worth the price ($) of admission. 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Sean_A

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2008, 01:40:16 PM »
Mark and Sean, I will be coming to England Oct 28 -Nov 6.  I'll have some time to play.  Is Painswick really worth the time?  I will be going from Oxford to Devon and may get up to Woodhall Spa and Ganton (I have a niece in Hull).

Tommy

If the weather lets up and the course has a chance to dry out then I think Painswick is worth a go.  If the weather stays anything remotely like the August we had, then I would say avoid Painswick like the plague.  It gets very soggy very quickly.  I stopped in a few weeks back and the course was wet. 

Though, if you are near Oxford, I would recommend Huntercombe over Painswick in a heart beat.

Ciao

« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 01:58:29 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Tim Gavrich

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2008, 04:25:18 PM »
I think Fenwick may just squeak in under the 5500 yard maximum.  Tons of fun with old-world charm.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Jason McNamara

Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2008, 05:48:25 PM »
Have not played it, but Braid's Glencruitten (4500 / 61) looks like a blast to play.

http://www.obangolf.com/holes.asp

Bill_McBride

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2008, 06:16:43 PM »
Mark and Sean, I will be coming to England Oct 28 -Nov 6.  I'll have some time to play.  Is Painswick really worth the time?  I will be going from Oxford to Devon and may get up to Woodhall Spa and Ganton (I have a niece in Hull).

Tommy, Painswick is definitely worth a visit.  I played there in Buda Cup II in 2004, then went out of my way to take my wife there for a round the next summer.     She loved it, and the members too, who treated us to tea and toast on the terrace overlooking the 18th green after our round.

The conditions are not great, the greens are tiny, there are walkers and dogs everywhere on this common ground, and most of the fairways are shared with someone coming at you.    It's all part of the charm.

Painswick is the poster child for "Most characterful short courses," everything else is at best a runner up.

Dan King

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2008, 06:28:58 PM »
I think The Machrie might be a little outside of your yardage limit, but I always think of The Machrie when thinking of character on a short course.

Bill McBride writes:
Painswick is the poster child for "Most characterful short courses," everything else is at best a runner up.

I've never played Painswick, so can't make the comparison. But somewhere on this site must be someone who has played both Painswick and The Machrie. Anyone wish to compare the character of the two courses?

In the U.S. I sure enjoy the character of Lincoln in SF.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.
 --Albert Einstein

Jason McNamara

Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2008, 07:06:44 PM »
The Machrie runs 6200, so it's a bit higher.  But less than 5500 is a pretty tough ask.  Some others to consider under that distance:

Cullen
Stonehaven (paging Brian)
Strathpeffer
Fort Augustus
Merchants of Edinburgh
Dunaverty
Church Stretton
Knighton (9 @ 2700)

Pretty good billy-goat course representation there.  Sean and Rich may have played a couple of these.

Oh, also Okehampton, which I don't think has been discussed here but Mark has mentioned to me off line.

plabatt

Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2008, 07:22:00 PM »
What about Stonehaven near Aberdeen.  Great video on U-Tube

Bill_McBride

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2008, 11:24:36 PM »
I think The Machrie might be a little outside of your yardage limit, but I always think of The Machrie when thinking of character on a short course.

Bill McBride writes:
Painswick is the poster child for "Most characterful short courses," everything else is at best a runner up.

I've never played Painswick, so can't make the comparison. But somewhere on this site must be someone who has played both Painswick and The Machrie. Anyone wish to compare the character of the two courses?

In the U.S. I sure enjoy the character of Lincoln in SF.

Cheers,
Dan King
Quote
Weakness of attitude becomes weakness of character.
 --Albert Einstein


Dan, I love Lincoln too, many happy rounds there as a kid, but what a wasted opportunity it is.  :-\

RSLivingston_III

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2008, 01:04:40 AM »
Kilspindie
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Jon Wiggett

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2008, 01:56:56 AM »
I also thought Kilspindie. Also a course close to where I am living in Switzerland is Bürgenstock. A great little 9 hole alpine course at around the 4800. Maybe not one of the greats but one of my favourites is Abernethy. Also Boat of Garten at 5648 from the yellows or Granton on Spey at about 5700

Ian_L

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2008, 02:26:19 AM »
Any thoughts on established longer courses that would play great from forward tees (either real or imaginary)?  Possibly with a reduced par?

Pat Burke

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #15 on: September 07, 2008, 02:27:56 AM »
The nine-hole Forest Park GC in Adams, Ma.

-Par of 68 (2 go-rounds), 5183 yds. from the 'tips'  ;)
-Some wild and undulating terrain w/small but tamer greens, although there are only three greens that are 'flat'.
-no fairway bunkers ( not needed, see above) 
-a 'volcano' par 4 and other well sited greens, one in particular seems to be growing right out of a ridge w/a steep drop off to the left.
-one down and one uphill par 3;
-a couple of holes w/ hidden greens and fronting swales that will kick a ball toward a bunker or a steep drop off at the side if you don't make the surface.
-uphill, downhill and side hill drives from every par 4, save one.
-you hit over roadways eight times if playing 18 holes.

Just a real throwback and fun to play.  The view of Mt. Greylock to the west is worth the price ($) of admission. 

Wow, never thought I'd hear about Forest Park in here.  I was fortunate to be able to spend a couple of weeks per summer there when my grandfather was the the head pro/bartender/resident manager there.
#6 and #7 changed dramatically in the 70's ( estimated) when they removed a giant hill.  Such a fun course to play as a kid.  Also got to go up and play the Greylock Glen (Cornish nle) during one of my summer visits, and can still remember my amazement with cups set in some teeing areas to practice putting.  The tees were perfect!  Spent many a great time in the summer there, thanks for the memory!

James Boon

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #16 on: September 07, 2008, 06:28:09 AM »
Less than 5,500 yards is a very tough ask!

I would say Cavendish is about 5,800 and worth a game. Also I think Charnwood Forest (by James Braid) is probably a similar length but not had a chance to play there yet myself.

A good list of courses generated so far and I may find these handy in the future! My wife is currently showing an interest in the game, and not sure she is going to want to play some of the longer courses when I do so these shorter but full of character courses will do nicely!

Cheers

James

2023 Highlights: Hollinwell, Brora, Parkstone, Cavendish, Hallamshire, Sandmoor, Moortown, Elie, Crail, St Andrews (Himalayas & Eden), Chantilly, M, Hardelot Les Pins

"It celebrates the unadulterated pleasure of being in a dialogue with nature while knocking a ball round on foot." Richard Pennell

Kevin Pallier

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #17 on: September 07, 2008, 08:28:54 AM »
Mark

I agree with James - mid 5K's is a tough ask - around 6K's is becomes more interesting eg: Crail

I enjoyed Musslburgh (Old) with it's surrounding race course / Mrs Forman's hut etc

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #18 on: September 07, 2008, 08:36:34 AM »
Pat Burke,
What a nice spot to spend a few weeks of summer vacation, especially with Gramps as the Pro.
 
I didn't know about the work on 6 & 7, where was the giant hill? 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Pat Burke

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2008, 01:24:11 PM »
Pat Burke,
What a nice spot to spend a few weeks of summer vacation, especially with Gramps as the Pro.
 
I didn't know about the work on 6 & 7, where was the giant hill? 

Right in front of 7 tee.  There even was rope tow for sledding and skiing when my mom was kid!
For a while, the 6th hole was played down the hill tot the square putting green across the road from the clubhouse, while the hill removal was being done

Rich Goodale

Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #20 on: September 07, 2008, 01:58:10 PM »
Sticking with <5500 yards, 18 holes and courses I have played, I strongly concur with Painswick ( I find it hard to think of ANY course with more "character"), Gullane #3, Kilspindie, and Strathpoeffer (but bring your crampons and botled oxygen).  Nearby me in West Fife, Aberdour, Kinghorn, and Canmore all fit the bill.

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #21 on: September 07, 2008, 02:33:36 PM »
Pat,
I think they moved that giant hill from the front of the tee to the landing zone for the drive.   ;D  The setting for the 7th green is one of the nicest on the course, MHO, and the view of Greylock from #8 tee is stellar.

I remember there being some controversy when GG was being built (although I never played there) about the plan. Jones/Rulewich gave them a  routing and it wasn't supposed to be used unless they did the job, it was used ( supposedly, and I guess that would have been by Cornish) and a lawsuit was brought. I also have a dim memory that the place was never solvent, and that the bank had to step in shortly after the course was built.
It did get good reviews, but the mid 70s had to be as bad as the present for developments.

Where was it located in relation to FP?   



"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2008, 02:37:54 PM »
Thanks for the suggestions. I think it's right to stick at 5,500 yards because it asks a lot of the course to remain interesting throughout the round and Painswick certainly does....

Tommy, you need better weather for playing Painswick, but you'd get a very fair idea of the course just by walking it - and you'd know immediately that you simply have to play it in better weather - and join Sean at Kington, too. You would be entirely at home with the walkers and dogs - just like Royal North Devon.  By the time of your visit a lot of courses will be in winter mode (that doesn't mean snow) but back tees get taken out of play, replacement holes are sometimes brought in to play, greens are kept woolly and so on. So you need to think of the best drained courses twixt Oxford and Devon. Broadway is reckoned to be the best drained course in the country. I haven't played it for years, but there are a number of good holes and the views are tremendous (Sean might well chip in). Near Oxford I'd go for Tadmarton Heath close to Banbury which has tons of character (though Sean was only so-so on its merits - he posted about it quite recently). I'm not as up as I ought to be on the downland courses of Wiltshire, but Ogbourne Downs, Marlborough, High Post are worth a shout, and maybe someone can speak of the merits of Tidworth garrison, Upavon, West Wilts and North Wilts.

Of course, if you've not already done them, you could detour south to take in Broadstone, Parkstone, Ferndown and Isle of Purbeck in roughly that order. They're good winter courses.

Back to the short courses, I used to play (back in the 70s) fairly often at Coombe Wood in Kingston, Surrey. It measures 5299 from the back tees, and it was certainly under 5000 from the yellow tees we played. Yet it felt no shorter than Highgate (which was the other course which welcomed our motley society) which measured 5964 from the whites. Coombe Wood doesn't have the character of Painswick, but I remember fondly quite a number of really good holes.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2008, 07:01:12 PM »
I second the nomination of Broadway, which I stumbled on long before I knew of GCA.com and Painswick.  I think it's longer than the 5500 yards, but agree it must be very well drained.  The holes along the escarpment were very interesting, and the Vale of Eavesham is way below so the water flows well off those slightly tilted fairways.

We were staying in Chipping Campden and found Broadway Golf Club on a long walk. 

Pat Burke

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Re: Most characterful short courses
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2008, 12:43:01 AM »
Pat,
I think they moved that giant hill from the front of the tee to the landing zone for the drive.   ;D  The setting for the 7th green is one of the nicest on the course, MHO, and the view of Greylock from #8 tee is stellar.

I remember there being some controversy when GG was being built (although I never played there) about the plan. Jones/Rulewich gave them a  routing and it wasn't supposed to be used unless they did the job, it was used ( supposedly, and I guess that would have been by Cornish) and a lawsuit was brought. I also have a dim memory that the place was never solvent, and that the bank had to step in shortly after the course was built.
It did get good reviews, but the mid 70s had to be as bad as the present for developments.

Where was it located in relation to FP?   

If you looked at Mt Greylock from the 8th tee at FP, GG was situated about 1/3 to 1/2 way up the mountain, to the left of the old rock slide scar.  It is a beautiful piece of land, and as an 11 or 12 year old, there are a couple of holes I can still remember, including a beautiful 3 par against the side of a slope, with a steep drop off to the left that let to one of those bubbling New England streams
GG never was solvent.  They cleared at least three ski trails for the resort, and built a beautiful course, and ironically, I remember being told it WAS a RTJ course.  I had the opportunity to speak with Mr Cornish online (what a nice man) about it and all I was told was that he was disappointed that it didn't survive.  Probably would have been a highly thought of mountain course :-[
Would love to find some old pictures of the Greylock Glen course, but have struck out, even with Mr Cornish