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Kyle Harris

Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« on: September 06, 2008, 10:13:08 AM »
For the first time, I played Inniscrone yesterday.

I came away with mixed feelings. To me, the golf course is very disjointed and doesn't really "come together" until the 11th.

A superb opener is followed by a decent 2nd. However, the walk from first green to second tee is the first of several interesting compromises and decisions made in the routing that are leaving me scratching my head. As Ran points out, the 2nd hole is elegant in strategy and presentation. However, I am left to wonder if a better hole may have lurked if the tee were closer to the first green.

This attitude is further compounded by the superb nature of the 3rd hole, where the walk from the 2nd green to the 3rd tee across the road was very much worth the separation. I have always been fond of segregated portions of a site being fully exploited for the purposes of golf, and the stretch from 3 to 7 fits my ideal nicely.

This brings us to the fifth, which Ran describes in the course review:
Quote
No description of Inniscrone can be complete without making reference to the controversial 5th, a 105-yard drop-shot hole to a wide but quite shallow green that runs away in spots and leads to a ten-foot drop behind the green. Its detractors point to the fact that it is all too possible for a crisply-struck pitch to land on the downslope on the front center part of the green and finish in the deep bunker beyond the green, leading to a score of 5 in many cases. However, it is interesting to hear a table full of golfers describe their strategies for the hole – some will deliberately play toward the front bunker and take their chances getting up and down, many will just play to the deeper and flatter right third of the green, while others have enough confidence in their accuracy and distance-control that they will go after the hole no matter where it is. To the authors, any hole that can generate such debate as to the best way to play it can't be but so bad. Toss in the fact that the shot is only with a lob wedge or a small sand iron, and there just isn't cause for calls of unfairness.

After some reflection, I feel the hole does not justify the compromises made in the routing to make it fit the property. For those who are unfamiliar, the 5th tee and 6th are adjacent to each other, which the fifth playing away from the sixth. As Ran describes, the green is a short drop shot proposition to a green sloping away.

While there is strategy to playing the hole, as noted, the strategy is more in line with how a golfer deals with a less-than-ideal shot than how the golfer determines the best chance to score. The hole essentially sets up as though one is short-sided on the wrong side of a green - no matter the hole location. While the bunkers have been removed, little in the way of flexibility exists. For me, the ideal fix would be to extend the putting surface into the area that was once bunkers, allowing for semi-blind hole locations in the front portion of the green and the chance for a wily golfer to tempt the blind portion of the green to get to the area of the present putting surface.

Perhaps I am missing something, but Ran notes that the short drop shot par 3 is lacking in the game today. I don't particularly buy this argument, nor do I forgive neglecting the chance to build a hole that truly is rare - the short, very uphill par 3 - which this site could offer without the routing interruption given in the present configuration. While the hole taken individually may be reasonable, in context of the previous and following holes the fifth hole is a missed opportunity.

For the cognoscenti, which profiles of Ran's do you not find in line with your own thinking?

TEPaul

Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2008, 11:33:04 AM »
Kyle:

Are you familiar with what Hanse initially wanted to do with the 5th hole and why he couldn't do it?

Andy Troeger

Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2008, 11:33:23 AM »
I generally agree with most of Ran's profiles. Sometimes my level of appreciation is higher/lower, but I'm not sure there's any profile I have real strong disagreement with.

The most questionable item for me is the following from the TSN profile:

"The land the North course at Talking Stick occupies is no different than thousands of square miles of land in the southwestern U.S. - flat and dotted by the occasional bush or cactus. One cannot help but think how one has driven hundreds of miles thorough identical terrain. Why, then, are there not dozens more courses like this? There is certainly enough land for it."

Certainly there is significant flat land in the SW, however, there's also a significant amount of more interesting land. Why build on the flat stuff when there are already many golf courses built on better parcels. For C & C fans, why build more Talking Stick's when you can build We-Ko-Pa which has enough land movement to make for a much more interesting course. Since I live in New Mexico I certainly don't think of the SW as flat--the drive over to Phoenix is generally anything but until you get into the city itself. I have the impression that the land to the south and the west is less interesting and maybe more of what Ran refers to in this profile? I've never gone beyond the west side of the valley. The drive down to Tucson seemed flat--but it was in the dark.

Golf in Phoenix is always interesting to me; you've got these mountains all over the place, some other rolling areas around them, and then areas of dead flat nothingness. Talking Stick would be an interesting comparison to Butterfield Trail, a Fazio design in El Paso, TX where much dirt was moved from a site that might have been similar to begin with.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 11:35:06 AM by Andy Troeger »

Kyle Harris

Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2008, 11:39:10 AM »
Kyle:

Are you familiar with what Hanse initially wanted to do with the 5th hole and why he couldn't do it?

I am not. I would love to hear it though.

TEPaul

Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2008, 11:44:29 AM »
In my opinion, Ran Morrissett has a "course review" talent of real clarity and substance. But like all good things there is always the flipside. By that I mean there are those fairly infrequent moments where and when he completely goes to pieces in his analysis of say some one thing on a hole or whatever as if he's become captured by aliens or whatever.

I do know the reason for this. Over a dozen years ago while living in Australia he had what he thought was a few "cleansing ales". Unfortunatly they were definitely not "cleansing" and matter of fact they were not ale at all. The effects of that unfortunately show now and again in his architectural analyses. I hope someday the effects of that unfortunate happenstance will finally wear off.

TEPaul

Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2008, 11:53:39 AM »
I saw this happen to him while at Sand Hills. On the 14th hole his analysis momentarily went totally haywire. In that case it may've been from the effects of me smoking on the porch of our room, forgetting to shut the screen door when we went to dinner, thereby letting in every mosquito in the state of Nebraska. I acknowledged it was totally my fault and that it was definitely not a pretty sight. Trying to sleep in a room with one or two mosquitoes buzzing around is a pain-in-the-ass to most anyone but trying to sleep with about 100 military divisions of Nebraska mosquitoes in the room is a whole different experience. Although I was in the USMC during Vietnam, I never saw action over there, but I certainly did that night in Sand Hills so I'm completely familiar with the effects of extreme "battle fatigue." But I know how to handle the effects of it. Apparently Ran Morrissett doesn't.

Tom_Doak

  • Total Karma: 11
Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2008, 11:57:04 AM »
One course I think Ran has overrated in his profiles is Newcastle in Australia.  It's quite a good course, but not of international stature as Ran implies.  He overrated it because they used to let him play there when he lived in Australia -- and there are possibly some other courses where he has the same bias.

henrye

Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2008, 12:08:14 PM »
One course I think Ran has overrated in his profiles is Newcastle in Australia.  It's quite a good course, but not of international stature as Ran implies.  He overrated it because they used to let him play there when he lived in Australia -- and there are possibly some other courses where he has the same bias.

What an odd observation.  Have you discussed this with Ran?  Sounds like you don't think Ran could be as objective as you.  Perhaps the two of you simply disagree?

Carl Nichols

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #8 on: September 06, 2008, 12:43:25 PM »
Ran's very positive description of Cuscowilla doesn't even mention the 14th hole, which many people think is a terrible hole. 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #9 on: September 06, 2008, 12:51:21 PM »
I would hope we would all disagree from time to time on anyone's analysis, and think Ran would too.  What kind of discussion board would it be if we all said "Me, too."  Frankly, it happens too much on this site anyway, with so many who have played so few courses almost immediately dismissing or praising some new effort. 

Doak or C and C could leave a turd in the fw and many here would praise it as an architectural feature......

PS- (golf clap please for my best Kavanaugh Impression.......)
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Kyle Harris

Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #10 on: September 06, 2008, 12:56:00 PM »
I would hope we would all disagree from time to time on anyone's analysis, and think Ran would too.  What kind of discussion board would it be if we all said "Me, too."  Frankly, it happens too much on this site anyway, with so many who have played so few courses almost immediately dismissing or praising some new effort. 

Doak or C and C could leave a turd in the fw and many here would praise it as an architectural feature......

PS- (golf clap please for my best Kavanaugh Impression.......)

Jeff,

I went into Inniscrone expecting to be wowed based on Ran's analysis.

TEPaul

Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #11 on: September 06, 2008, 01:14:44 PM »
"Doak or C and C could leave a turd in the fw and many here would praise it as an architectural feature......"


Mr. Jeffrey Brauer, Sir:


For a few years now I've been trying to imagine and consider some new and fresh ideas for the future of golf course architecture but I've never thought of that one. After some careful consideration it may be a wonderful fresh idea for the future of GCA.

It certainly would be a hazard that most all golfers would give a wide berth to strategically even if it would be considered small as a hazard (even though the smell could make it effectively much larger than it really is).

I don't think maintenance costs would be a concern either as a new one could be laid out every few days at no real cost at all.

Matter of fact, for a class A tournament a bunch of them could be laid out in either a scientific OR random architectural arragnement and then removed for ladies day or whatever a few days later.

You really are a wonder, Mr Jeffrey Brauer, you're an "outside the box" architectural thinker par excellence!

« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 01:16:23 PM by TEPaul »

igrowgrass

Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2008, 01:15:30 PM »

Jeff,

I went into Inniscrone expecting to be wowed based on Ran's analysis.

Maybe this was the problem.  You expected every shot to provide the greatest shot value possible, instead of just enjoying the walk and making your own opinions, not predetermined ideas of what you thought it was going to be.

Kyle Harris

Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2008, 01:27:07 PM »

Jeff,

I went into Inniscrone expecting to be wowed based on Ran's analysis.

Maybe this was the problem.  You expected every shot to provide the greatest shot value possible, instead of just enjoying the walk and making your own opinions, not predetermined ideas of what you thought it was going to be.

Sean,

I'm fairly objective and don't let things predetermine my thoughts. I knew of the bad elements of the tenth hole and the oddness of the 5th and attempted to take them for what they were. Tom Paul is alluding to difficulty in designing the 5th, but I'm at a loss as to why it still needed to be a drop shot hole. I agree with Ran on much of his analysis but just not these acute points.

Note how Ran makes no mention of the 10th hole. I know Ran chooses to focus on the positive of the golf course and I tend to agree that is the way to go. However, I do not agree with some of the things he highlights as highlights.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 01:35:07 PM by Kyle Harris »

Dan Herrmann

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #14 on: September 06, 2008, 01:37:59 PM »
Ran has really messed up my continued attempts to do a "My Home Course"...  Why?  He writes so damn well. 

Everytime I've written something, I compare it to one of the reviews and have a mulligan.

On another praise note - I always smile fondly when I read the Walnut Lane review. 

Tom Dunne

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #15 on: September 06, 2008, 02:07:58 PM »
I've only played Inniscrone once, and my problem with it had more to do with maintenance than architecture. Tee to green it played *very* slow--drives would land in the fairway and you'd see the pitch mark a couple of feet away. The surrounds were soggy and even slower, but the greens themselves were firm, fast and often very hard to hold.  I thought it detracted from the fun of the course's design. Inniscrone was designed to be pretty difficult, it seems, and I definitely found it to be so, but I didn't like the feeling that the conditions were also consistently working against me.

Like Kyle, I didn't much care for the 10th, or the split-level par-four on the back nine--can't remember the number on that one. The 5th felt like a bit of a crapshoot in terms of holding the green but I appreciate the variety it brings to the course-- it's a touchy little wedge shot you don't exactly play every round.


Kyle Harris

Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2008, 02:12:47 PM »
I've only played Inniscrone once, and my problem with it had more to do with maintenance than architecture. Tee to green it played *very* slow--drives would land in the fairway and you'd see the pitch mark a couple of feet away. The surrounds were soggy and even slower, but the greens themselves were firm, fast and often very hard to hold.  I thought it detracted from the fun of the course's design. Inniscrone was designed to be pretty difficult, it seems, and I definitely found it to be so, but I didn't like the feeling that the conditions were also consistently working against me.

Like Kyle, I didn't much care for the 10th, or the split-level par-four on the back nine--can't remember the number on that one. The 5th felt like a bit of a crapshoot in terms of holding the green but I appreciate the variety it brings to the course-- it's a touchy little wedge shot you don't exactly play every round.



We played in VERY firm conditions that were a plus.

I haven't commented on the 10th. I don't know what I think about it yet.

The split fairway hole is the 16th, which I'm thinking was Hanse's tribute to Merion's 16th. I liked it.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2008, 02:34:14 PM »
"Doak or C and C could leave a turd in the fw and many here would praise it as an architectural feature......"


Mr. Jeffrey Brauer, Sir:


For a few years now I've been trying to imagine and consider some new and fresh ideas for the future of golf course architecture but I've never thought of that one. After some careful consideration it may be a wonderful fresh idea for the future of GCA.

It certainly would be a hazard that most all golfers would give a wide berth to strategically even if it would be considered small as a hazard (even though the smell could make it effectively much larger than it really is).

I don't think maintenance costs would be a concern either as a new one could be laid out every few days at no real cost at all.

Matter of fact, for a class A tournament a bunch of them could be laid out in either a scientific OR random architectural arragnement and then removed for ladies day or whatever a few days later.

You really are a wonder, Mr Jeffrey Brauer, you're an "outside the box" architectural thinker par excellence!



Tom/Jeff,

Shhhhhh.....

If the "Open Doctor" reads this he'll line his fairways with parallel, absolutely symmetrical mounds designed to SEVERELY punish slightly offline play!  :-\ ;)

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2008, 02:43:40 PM »
To my good friend Mr O.B. (out of box, or out of body) Paul,

Thank you for those fine compliments on my newest architectural concoction.  Sometimes ideas come to me in, shall we say, the most unexpected places........

While I think the "turd hazard" will find many applications in golf design, and even spin off many derivatives (like a pond turd (i.e. "turd in the punch bowl" I have yet to come to grips with its primary flaw - I think they can be either firm or fast, but never firm and fast at the same time, at least based n my lifelong experience.

All the best,

Jeffrey D. Brauer
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

mike_beene

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2008, 03:15:37 PM »
It appears my dog Tina Ballerina now has a fine future in golf course construction.

D_Malley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2008, 04:20:25 PM »
one of the most interesting places i have seen use of the aformentioned "turd hazard" was in the 18th hole at merion east.
notice i said "in" not "on".  when it is in the hole it becomes a hazard one must negotiate.

Scott Whitley

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2008, 04:38:18 PM »
Cow pies were a constant and very real hazard on the first and last few holes of Narin and Portnoo in the old days, before the grazing rights were finally abandoned.

Randy Thompson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #22 on: September 07, 2008, 12:55:13 AM »

Doak or C and C could leave a turd in the fw and many here would praise it as an architectural feature......

There ia a whole lot to consider here, fisrt of all I would need to know how far the actual turd was placed from each set of tees and how many tees were constructed on the hole to decide if it was a really good architectural feature or not. Secondly, what are the natural surroundings and will the said turd fit into these surroundings. If the hole borders a horse farm and there are actual horses visible and the said turd is shaped in the form of an actual horse turd then I would say yes, it is a praise worthy architectural feature. Which brings me to another point, Why is it that horse turds come out in ball like formations mixed with dry hay and a cow turd is mushy and in the form of a paddy but a rabbit makes small turds in the form of pellets and they all eat the same thing grass. Frankly I donīt know the answer and I doubt the average GSA poster knows either. Therefore my conclusions are this, WE KNOW LITTLE OR NOTHING ABOUT SHIT, How can we possibly disscuss something intelligently so complex as golf course architecture!!

igrowgrass

Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2008, 03:11:18 AM »

Jeff,

I went into Inniscrone expecting to be wowed based on Ran's analysis.

Maybe this was the problem.  You expected every shot to provide the greatest shot value possible, instead of just enjoying the walk and making your own opinions, not predetermined ideas of what you thought it was going to be.

Sean,

I'm fairly objective and don't let things predetermine my thoughts. I knew of the bad elements of the tenth hole and the oddness of the 5th and attempted to take them for what they were. Tom Paul is alluding to difficulty in designing the 5th, but I'm at a loss as to why it still needed to be a drop shot hole. I agree with Ran on much of his analysis but just not these acute points.

Note how Ran makes no mention of the 10th hole. I know Ran chooses to focus on the positive of the golf course and I tend to agree that is the way to go. However, I do not agree with some of the things he highlights as highlights.

You obvisouly are not as objective as you think
"I went into Inniscrone expecting to be wowed based on Ran's analysis."
making that statement shows your predetermined notion as to what you were going to see or think.
Having pretermined notions are fine, but you can't say your objective after making a statement like that.

Kyle Henderson

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Frank Commentary: "I don't agree with Ran's Profile of....."
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2008, 03:41:34 AM »

Doak or C and C could leave a turd in the fw and many here would praise it as an architectural feature......


I do love central hazards. They always seem to add the best strategic elements to golf holes. I used to have a dog that only pooped at the periphery of my lawn. Clearly he was from a more penal school of design than I.
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