Routing: San Francisco Golf Club versus Merion

[Ian_L]

Eric Torhurst,

The tee shot is to the NORTHWEST.

The sun sets north of west in the summertime in Monterey.
The sun doesn't have to be directly in the line of your shot to bother.
We've had a first hand account on this thread that the sun is bothersome on the 18th tee in the evening.

[wsmorrison]

I don't think routing into the sunset on the last few holes or into the rising sun on the first few holes is necessarily a bad routing.  Especially if in all other regards the course is solid to spectacular. 

[Adam Clayman]

Pat, Your facts are wrong about the first at CPC. I know because I EXPERIENCED it in the first week of Jan. Which means it faces slightly SE.

The other reason that this facet is not a bad thing is that when faced with the sun in your direct LOS, it helps the player to NOT look up, resulting in a better swing.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Eric Torhurst,

The tee shot is to the NORTHWEST.

The sun sets north of west in the summertime in Monterey.
The sun doesn't have to be directly in the line of your shot to bother.
We've had a first hand account on this thread that the sun is bothersome on the 18th tee in the evening.

Ian,

The last time I played PB, I played 36 holes three days in a row, teeing off in the morning for my first round and teeing off last in the afternoon for my second round and the sun never bothered me, and, I don't wear sun glasses.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, Your facts are wrong about the first at CPC. I know because I EXPERIENCED it in the first week of Jan. Which means it faces slightly SE.


My facts aren't wrong, and every time I played CPC I was one of the first to tee off each morning.

The other reason that this facet is not a bad thing is that when faced with the sun in your direct LOS, it helps the player to NOT look up, resulting in a better swing.

What you and the other bozos on this site forget is the following.

Why do they build football fields with a north-south alignment ?

Hint:  It has something to do with the sun.

Of the thousands upon thousands of golf courses built over the last 100+ years, why do you think so few were built with the first hole teeing off toward the east and the 18th hole teeing off toward the west ?

Hint:  It has something to do with the sun.

[Adam Clayman]

 BOZO? Don't you know anything? They're called Martians.

 You can go ahead and equate stadiums where games are played while the rest of us discuss golf courses, which are mediums for sport.  What kind of SPORTSMAN are you that a little sun in your eyes is not over come? What a wussy?


 

[Ian_L]

Eric Torhurst,

The tee shot is to the NORTHWEST.

The sun sets north of west in the summertime in Monterey.
The sun doesn't have to be directly in the line of your shot to bother.
We've had a first hand account on this thread that the sun is bothersome on the 18th tee in the evening.

Ian,

The last time I played PB, I played 36 holes three days in a row, teeing off in the morning for my first round and teeing off last in the afternoon for my second round and the sun never bothered me, and, I don't wear sun glasses.

Unless you believe Tom Doak is delusional, senile, or a liar, I don't see how you can keep arguing this.  You might not have been playing at the "right" time of year, or maybe you were too early/late when you got to the 18th.

[BVince]

I don't see how you can disagree with Pat on his observations, he was stating his experience.

[Ian_L]

I don't disagree with his experience, but he is arguing that the sun is never a factor in the evening off the tee shot at Pebble, when we have seen that it is.  I'm sure his experience was just how he related it, but that doesn't mean that the 18th is ideal for an evening finish.

[Eric_Terhorst]

Patrick Murky,

Adam’s statement was: ”Pebble Beach's 18th goes directly west, is that a consideration in valuing the architecture?”

He said nothing about the tee shot in that statement.  You said he was dead wrong.  I said he was at least 1/3 right.  So I’m not sure what the dispute is about his claim or my proof of it.

You said, “The tee shot is to the NORTHWEST.”  I never disputed that.  However, to completely discount the effect of the setting sun on that hole is silly.

It's disappointing that the testimony of your fellow GCAers who've played the hole and had trouble with the sun isn't enough to convince you.   OK, consider that astrological data tell us the sun sets in Monterey on the summer solstice at about 8:30, at an angle of 300 degrees, to wit:

                                    h   m    °   
2009 Jun 21 (Sun)      20:29   300   
 
From:  http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/mrst.php

The image shows that players aiming along the ideal line will face, oh, about 40 degrees north of west, or about 310 degrees. 

Given the USGA’s recent success with late evening golf broadcast from the west, I suspect the final pairing in the 2010 US Open will be blinded by the light if it happens to be shining…perhaps if you were nearby you could offer a competitor your sunglasses, since you won't be using them.

[Mike Golden]

only on Golf Club Atlas could a question about the relative merits of the routing of SFGC and Merion turn into a argument relating to the angle of the sun at another golf course complete with the usual insults...

[Patrick_Mucci]

.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Adam’s statement was: ”Pebble Beach's 18th goes directly west, is that a consideration in valuing the architecture?”

He said nothing about the tee shot in that statement. 

Of course he did, it's inherent in his statement, unless of course, you place your ball in the fairway and skip driving from the tee on each hole.

The tee shot goes northwest, not west.

You said he was dead wrong. 

He was and remains dead wrong[/color]

I said he was at least 1/3 right.  So I’m not sure what the dispute is about his claim or my proof of it.

The only shot that plays west is an approach from short yardage, not the tee shot, which is critical and difficult considering the hazard on the left, bunkers and OB on the right.  How would that play into a direct sun ?

You said, “The tee shot is to the NORTHWEST.”  I never disputed that.

However, to completely discount the effect of the setting sun on that hole is silly.

The setting sun's effect is de minimis

It's disappointing that the testimony of your fellow GCAers who've played the hole and had trouble with the sun isn't enough to convince you.   

Are you positive that they've played the hole into the setting sun ?
I KNOW that I have on more than a few occassions.
Why isn't my testimony, based on personal experience, equally as convincing ?


OK, consider that astrological data tell us the sun sets in Monterey on the summer solstice at about 8:30, at an angle of 300 degrees, to wit:

                                    h   m    °   
2009 Jun 21 (Sun)      20:29   300   
 
From:  http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/mrst.php

The image shows that players aiming along the ideal line will face, oh, about 40 degrees north of west, or about 310 degrees. 

Ideal line ?  You must be deranged, Tiger Woodsesque or totally unfamiliar with playing # 18   Have you ever PLAYED the hole ?

Given the USGA’s recent success with late evening golf broadcast from the west, I suspect the final pairing in the 2010 US Open will be blinded by the light if it happens to be shining…

You're confused...... again.
I was the one who contended that it's NOT a problem on # 18.
It was Adam Clayman who maintained that it was a problem.

perhaps if you were nearby you could offer a competitor your sunglasses, since you won't be using them.

The competitors won't need sunglasses while teeing off, hitting their second and/or third shots at # 18.  Remember, that's Adam Clayman's position, not mine.




Your diagram is absurd.
Who amongst my fellow GCA.comer's plays # 18 as you've diagramed it ?
It's another example of a ridiculous premise based on wild assumptions.
Have YOU ever played the hole ?

[Ian_L]

You again completely ignore the fact that the sun doesn't usually set directly to the west, and that the sun doesn't have to be directly in a player's line to bother him.  And if you play well right on the tee shot, then why won't the sun be a problem for your 2nd?

[Patrick_Mucci]

BOZO? Don't you know anything? They're called Martians.

You can go ahead and equate stadiums where games are played while the rest of us discuss golf courses, which are mediums for sport.  What kind of SPORTSMAN are you that a little sun in your eyes is not over come? What a wussy?


I never said that I couldn't overcome it.  It's just that it's almost a given in GCA.

I'm looking to see who amongst the ODG's cautioned against the practice.
It may have been Ross, but, I'll double check.


 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Eric Torhurst,

The tee shot is to the NORTHWEST.

The sun sets north of west in the summertime in Monterey.
The sun doesn't have to be directly in the line of your shot to bother.
We've had a first hand account on this thread that the sun is bothersome on the 18th tee in the evening.

Ian,

The last time I played PB, I played 36 holes three days in a row, teeing off in the morning for my first round and teeing off last in the afternoon for my second round and the sun never bothered me, and, I don't wear sun glasses.

Unless you believe Tom Doak is delusional, senile, or a liar, I don't see how you can keep arguing this. 

Those aren't the only choices, but, it's possible that Tom Doak is delusional, senile or both.

I haven't communicated with him in a few months so I couldn't vouch for his present state of mind.

I CAN keep arguing the point because the facts are on my side.

Have YOU EVER played # 18 at Pebble Beach ?
Please answer the question.

Secondly, after seeing the google earth postings of the 18th hole do you deny that the tee shot faces NorthWest and NOT West ?

That's an irrefutable fact.
That's why I keep arguing it.

You might not have been playing at the "right" time of year, or maybe you were too early/late when you got to the 18th.

How many times have you played the hole ?

Do you dispute that the tee shot faces Northwest ?

If not, the debate is over.  The setting sun is NOT in your eyes on the 18th tee if you're trying to hit your drive anywhere but Hawaii.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Golden,

When discussing the relative merits of a routing, I believe that the direction of the tee shot on # 1 and # 18 are relevant to the discussion.

The number of courses that avoid that configuration is overwhelming.
And, it's not by accident.

It's the same reason that football fields are built north-south, namely to keep the low sun out of the players eyes.

Some see it as a design flaw.

When this was discussed about six or so years ago, Ken Bakst cited NGLA which have the 1st and 18th holes in that alignment.

However, if we read and believe MacDonald's book, "Scotland's Gift", he states that # 10 was the original 1st with # 9 as the original 18th.

But, if we dispute MacDonald, which I do on this issue, the 1st at NGLA is down to a valley, thus the golfers eyes don't go above the horizon, and if they do, it's minimally.  Many golfers tee off with 2, 3 or 4 irons which provide an even lower trajectory.

As to # 18, the topography is such that the DZ and fairway behind it rise sharply above the golfer, muting the effect of the setting sun.  The second shot is blind with the golfer being unable to see the horizon.  The third/approach shot is to the west, but, it's typically a very short shot since the hole is barely 500 yards.

I've played NGLA a few times, and # 18 about twice as many times as # 1, and, I can't recall the sun blinding me on either hole, but, then again, I may be delusional, senile or a liar in the same vein that Ian describes Tom Doak

[Patrick_Mucci]

You again completely ignore the fact that the sun doesn't usually set directly to the west, and that the sun doesn't have to be directly in a player's line to bother him. 

And if you play well right on the tee shot, then why won't the sun be a problem for your 2nd?

Ian,

How many times have YOU played # 18 at PB ?

[Jed Peters]

Pat Mucci:

There are a few posters/golfers on GCA that play 18 the way diagramed, as well as many of my friends that would play it that way.

Adam as much, or more experience with Pebble Beach than many other posters on this site.

Why the cranky attitude? Have a bad day today? [insert lame smiley here]

[Patrick_Mucci]

There are a few posters/golfers on GCA that play 18 the way diagramed,


Which ones ?

as well as many of my friends that would play it that way.

They "WOULD" play it that way ?

That's an interesting comment.

I too thought that that's the way I would play the hole, based on my seeing the Crosby every year.  But, when I got to that tee, felt the breeze and understood the risks involved, I favored a draw over the fairway rather than a fade over the ocean.  A fade, that if over cooked could go OB.

One's bravado, based on TV viewing or aerials from Google Earth, quickly disappear when arriving on the 18th tee, especially if there's something at stake on that hole.

But,
How do you know that ?
How do you know that until they're on the tee and they "call" their shot ?


Adam as much, or more experience with Pebble Beach than many other posters on this site.

I've never questioned Adam's time on the Monterey Penisula.

I wonder how many times he advised golfers to "hit it out over the ocean and let it come back to the fairway, beyond the pines ?"

Why the cranky attitude? Have a bad day today? [insert lame smiley here]


I'm not cranky at all.
I had a great day, although, Tommy Naccarato brought up a sore subject when he called me today.

The "paddle grip" for putters and the USGA's prohibition of same.

I used to be a very good putter with my old Tommy Armour IMGT blade and paddle grip, but, when the USGA banned it, my putting started its downward spiral.

Interestingly enough, earlier in the day I retrieved two old putters that served me very well, one still had the old paddle grip on it.

I'm sad to report that our reunion did not produce the desired results.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

I still have a left-handed 60 degree wedge that has this incredibly strange desire to jump into your bag. 

Like some evil poltergeist, it has strange and malicious powers, as you witnessed.

You may want to spray your bag with holy water because I have no control over it!   

[Jed Peters]

Matt Cohn, for one. But only if he could play there a lot. Which he can't. Because he's broke. And there's no amateur tournaments there anymore that he could play in. (CGA State used to be there, along with some other NCGA events.)

A bunch of guys I play with (big hitter, the lama....long) if they played there a lot (like ANYONE plays there a lot) would hit it on that line. Big righties that bomb it with a cut would hit that shot, and lefties with a draw would hit it over the ocean.

Unless you edited your quotes above (i'm sitting in the hospital using the wifi) that I didn't read, or else in a state of delirium I miss-read you, you did challenge adam's time on the penninsula and familiarity with the course.

To combat the putting woes, try the cheater line. I hear it works awesome.

[Matt_Cohn]

Matt Cohn, for one. But only if he could play there a lot. Which he can't. Because he's broke.

I ain't broke. I just ain't a baller like Mucci. Or you, Mr. Check-out-my-new-wedges.

PS, Congratulations on your new "third wedge".   

[Adam Clayman]

Thanks for trying guys. Another lesson in futility learned.
For the record, Most of my later rounds at Pebble Beach were as a player.(approx. 20)  I use to play with an employee and the employee times were always after revenue.  And I played a rather large cut. That meant always coming down 18 in the setting sun and aiming over the water.

 It's an odd orientation with the Pacific on the left but the reality is the hole goes westerly. That was my only point and I used it to illustrate what I thought Tom Doak meant when he thought it, not a design rule worth adhering to, if the ultimate routing based on what the ground gave, necessitates it. Mark Fine can disagree all he wants and we all know Patrick will.

Patrick clearly decided to play a draw and that is clearly the right choice for everybody. Lesson learned.

 

[Eric_Terhorst]

Ideal line ?  You must be deranged, Tiger Woodsesque or totally unfamiliar with playing # 18   Have you ever PLAYED the hole ?[/b]

You're confused...... again.
I was the one who contended that it's NOT a problem on # 18.
It was Adam Clayman who maintained that it was a problem.[/b]

The competitors won't need sunglasses while teeing off, hitting their second and/or third shots at # 18.  Remember, that's Adam Clayman's position, not mine.[/b]

Patrick, actually I was thinking of Tiger when I drew that line on the Google image--accdg to Google's measuring device, that line measures 280 yards--easy 3-wood for him, I suppose.  The carry is about 215 yards--why would a player in the final group at the US Open take any other line?   I suppose as Adam says he could hit a high draw over the tree--bringing the OB into play if he happens to block it, easy enough to do with the hazard on the left, but maybe not for the 'World's #1." What's your suggested alternative?

When I've played the hole I aim at the tree, more north than west.  I can recall squinting into the western sun while playing the hole on at least one play, though I can't say it bothered me--it was Pebble Beach, after all, like you said. 

The contention is that the 18th hole at Pebble plays west, and that the west-facing nature of the hole may perturb some golfers at some times.  I am not confused--I understand you disagree with and resolutely hold to the contrary belief, despite factual evidence and testimony offered to convince you otherwise, and even in the face of my terrible, terrible disappointment. 

Tsk tsk.  We've tried our best!  Carry on, Mr. Mucci!