Routing: San Francisco Golf Club versus Merion

[Ian_L]

Eric Torhurst,

The tee shot is to the NORTHWEST.

The sun sets north of west in the summertime in Monterey.
The sun doesn't have to be directly in the line of your shot to bother.
We've had a first hand account on this thread that the sun is bothersome on the 18th tee in the evening.

Ian,

The last time I played PB, I played 36 holes three days in a row, teeing off in the morning for my first round and teeing off last in the afternoon for my second round and the sun never bothered me, and, I don't wear sun glasses.

Unless you believe Tom Doak is delusional, senile, or a liar, I don't see how you can keep arguing this. 

Those aren't the only choices, but, it's possible that Tom Doak is delusional, senile or both.

I haven't communicated with him in a few months so I couldn't vouch for his present state of mind.

I CAN keep arguing the point because the facts are on my side.

Have YOU EVER played # 18 at Pebble Beach ?
Please answer the question.

Secondly, after seeing the google earth postings of the 18th hole do you deny that the tee shot faces NorthWest and NOT West ?

That's an irrefutable fact.
That's why I keep arguing it.

You might not have been playing at the "right" time of year, or maybe you were too early/late when you got to the 18th.

How many times have you played the hole ?

Do you dispute that the tee shot faces Northwest ?

If not, the debate is over.  The setting sun is NOT in your eyes on the 18th tee if you're trying to hit your drive anywhere but Hawaii.

I have never played Pebble Beach, I don't have the money.  I have been to the AT&T there a couple times.  I'm not sure how that could be relevant unless I were testifying that the sun was in my eyes on the 18th hole.  I'm merely looking at the facts and observations from the players and coming to a logical conclusion.

I've never disputed that the tee shot faces WNW to NW, depending on the shot you choose.

Now that I've answered your question, please address these points, so we can actually see why we disagree:

You seem to be assuming that the sun sets directly to the west 365 days a year.  As I and others have pointed out, with the evidence to back it up, the sun in summertime sets in the WNW, 300 degrees.  The tee shot is approx. 310 to 330 degrees, making the tee shot basically into the sun on a summer evening.  You have ignored this fact throughout the discussion.

What about the second shot? Why isn't it into the sun if it faces west?

Tom Doak testified that the sun was in his face on the 18th tee several times in his youth.  Why do you think he's wrong?

Thanks.

[Chip Gaskins]

No doubt 18 at SFGC plays into the setting sun...



I reached it in two though I couldn't see it until I got to the green given the sun glare.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick, actually I was thinking of Tiger when I drew that line on the Google image--accdg to Google's measuring device, that line measures 280 yards--easy 3-wood for him, I suppose. 

Depends on the wind, doesn't it ?


The carry is about 215 yards--why would a player in the final group at the US Open take any other line?   


Now I understand.
You're sole contexting of the issue is for the 60-150 golfers who play in an event held at PB 3-4 days out of every 10-13 years.

What about the thousands who play the course on every other day except the Open days ?
How do they play that hole ?

I suppose as Adam says he could hit a high draw over the tree--bringing the OB into play if he happens to block it, easy enough to do with the hazard on the left, but maybe not for the 'World's #1." What's your suggested alternative?

When I've played the hole I aim at the tree, more north than west. 

A high draw OVER the tree ?
What kind of drugs are they giving you ?
At least you know north from west.

I can recall squinting into the western sun while playing the hole on at least one play, though I can't say it bothered me--it was Pebble Beach, after all, like you said. 

I would imagine, on that hole and many others, that at some time, somewhere, you'd look into the sun.
But, the issue is 1st holes that tee of to the east and 18th holes that tee off to the west.

The football field example should provide any prudent person with the answer as to why it's a no-no.

The contention is that the 18th hole at Pebble plays west, and that the west-facing nature of the hole may perturb some golfers at some times.  I am not confused--I understand you disagree with and resolutely hold to the contrary belief, despite factual evidence and testimony offered to convince you otherwise, and even in the face of my terrible, terrible disappointment. 

The hole does not tee off to the west.  That's a fact.

Tsk tsk.  We've tried our best!  Carry on, Mr. Mucci!

[Jed Peters]

What about the thousands who play the course on every other day except the Open days ?
How do they play that hole ?

Push slice into right bunker(s).

Dribble out into fairway after trying to hit too much club and hitting it fat.

Dribble fairway wood just in front of tree in middle of fairway.

Weak leaky slice with 5 wood

Pitch from right rough into bunker.

Bunker to green

3 putts.

"Give me a 7"

[Patrick_Mucci]

I have never played Pebble Beach,

Why did I KNOW that ?

I don't have the money.  I have been to the AT&T there a couple times.  I'm not sure how that could be relevant unless I were testifying that the sun was in my eyes on the 18th hole. 

That's exactly what this issue is about.

I'm merely looking at the facts and observations from the players and coming to a logical conclusion.

How could you look at the facts if you've never stood on the 18th tee and prepared to hit your drive ?

What's behind the fairway as you look from the tee ?
What's behind what's behind the fairway as you look from the tee ?

Are there objects, structures, and terrain that would block a view of the setting sun ?

I've never disputed that the tee shot faces WNW to NW, depending on the shot you choose.

Now that I've answered your question, please address these points, so we can actually see why we disagree:

You seem to be assuming that the sun sets directly to the west 365 days a year. 

I never made that assumption, that's an assumption on your part.

As I and others have pointed out, with the evidence to back it up, the sun in summertime sets in the WNW, 300 degrees. 

You can't see the horizon from the tee when the sun sets.  Did you factor that it ?
And, the sun doesn't set at 300 degrees every day from June 21 to Sept 21.

The tee shot is approx. 310 to 330 degrees, making the tee shot basically into the sun on a summer evening. 

No, it's not into the setting sun as you'd like to believe.
How many degrees above the horizon does the golfer see when the sun is setting ?

You have ignored this fact throughout the discussion.


No I haven't.
You don't understand the lay of the land as you stand on the 18th tee and prepare to hit your tee shot.
You've ignored that fact throughout the discussion, finally admitting that you've never played the hole, yet claim to be an expert on the visuals from the tee.

What about the second shot? Why isn't it into the sun if it faces west?


You can't have it both ways.
You can't maintain that the sun is in your eyes on a NW tee shot and then, 30 seconds later its in your eyes on a due west 2nd shot.  The sun doesn't move that quickly, unless you're on drugs.

Since you're so familiar with # 18, tell us what's behind # 18 green in terms of terrain, structures and trees that would block the sun as it sets.  And, forget for a second that you claimed that the sun set at 300 degrees and not 270 degrees.

Tom Doak testified that the sun was in his face on the 18th tee several times in his youth.  Why do you think he's wrong?

Because he wasn't playing golf, he was trying to get a tan while lying on the 18th tee.
I can't account for Tom Doak's experience, and neither can you, but, I can account for my own experiences of playing # 18 late in the day, numerous times.  You on the other hand, have NO experience playing the 18th hole at any time, and that can't be ignored.

[Matt_Cohn]

http://tornio.info/Java/sunapplet.html

This applet will find the azimuth at any time of day, not just sunset. Maybe you could even plug in a day and an azimuth and see what time it happens. Have fun.

[Jeff Fortson]

This is why I love this site.  We are debating routings and their relationship to the sun.  Awesome!


Jeff F.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

Can you name a dozen courses where # 1 tees off directly east ?

Can you name a dozen courses where # 18 tees off directly west ?

While some call it formulaic, I call it common sense.

Can anyone name an outdoor football stadium in the U.S. that runs East - West ?

I think there are certain tenets that make sense when it comes to routing, clubhouse location, etc., etc.

Having the clubhouse in a corner of the property instead of at the center is one of them.
While there are exceptions to that rule, it makes sense as service roads can become a routing impendiment.

Some of the great architects in the "Golden Age" adhered to these design principles, so they shouldn't be ignored or minimized.

[Kalen Braley]

Can you name a dozen courses where # 1 tees off directly east ?

Can you name a dozen courses where # 18 tees off directly west ?

Here are 10 golf courses, all in the SLC area.

Directly West 18 tee:

Bonneville Golf Course
Mountain Dell - Canyon Course
Mountain Dell - Lakes Course
River Oaks Golf Course
Hobble Creek Golf Course
StoneBridge Golf Course

Mostly West:

South Mountain
Talonscove
Cedar Hills Golf course
GlenMoore Golf Course

[Ian_L]

1. How could you look at the facts if you've never stood on the 18th tee and prepared to hit your drive ?

2. What's behind the fairway as you look from the tee ?
3. What's behind what's behind the fairway as you look from the tee ?

4. Are there objects, structures, and terrain that would block a view of the setting sun ?



5. I never made that assumption, that's an assumption on your part.

As I and others have pointed out, with the evidence to back it up, the sun in summertime sets in the WNW, 300 degrees. 

6. You can't see the horizon from the tee when the sun sets.  Did you factor that it ?
7. And, the sun doesn't set at 300 degrees every day from June 21 to Sept 21.

The tee shot is approx. 310 to 330 degrees, making the tee shot basically into the sun on a summer evening. 

No, it's not into the setting sun as you'd like to believe.
8. How many degrees above the horizon does the golfer see when the sun is setting ?



No I haven't.
9. You don't understand the lay of the land as you stand on the 18th tee and prepare to hit your tee shot.
You've ignored that fact throughout the discussion, finally admitting that you've never played the hole, (10.) yet claim to be an expert on the visuals from the tee.

What about the second shot? Why isn't it into the sun if it faces west?


11. You can't have it both ways.
You can't maintain that the sun is in your eyes on a NW tee shot and then, 30 seconds later its in your eyes on a due west 2nd shot.  The sun doesn't move that quickly, unless you're on drugs.

12. Since you're so familiar with # 18, tell us what's behind # 18 green in terms of terrain, structures and trees that would block the sun as it sets.  
13. And, forget for a second that you claimed that the sun set at 300 degrees and not 270 degrees.

Tom Doak testified that the sun was in his face on the 18th tee several times in his youth.  Why do you think he's wrong?

Because he wasn't playing golf, he was trying to get a tan while lying on the 18th tee.
14. I can't account for Tom Doak's experience, and neither can you, but, I can account for my own experiences of playing # 18 late in the day, numerous times.  You on the other hand, have NO experience playing the 18th hole at any time, and that can't be ignored.

(Numbers added in Pat's quotes)

1. Information from this thread, having been at the course, looking at photographs, common sense.
2. Trees and houses.
3. Trees on the hills.
4. Yes, but believe it or not the sun doesn't have to be 1 degree above the horizon to make it hard to see.  If it's just above those trees, your ball will be at least as high as the sun on your tee shot, meaning you'll be squinting to see your ball.
5. Then why haven't you addressed the fact that the sun doesn't set at 270 degrees every day until now?
6.  Good point, that means that in the summer the sun is even farther north when it's just above the trees, putting it more into the golfer's line of play.
7.  Um, OK?
8. I'm not very good with angles, but I'd say 5 to 10 degrees from the tee.
9. You hadn't asked if I'd played the course until now, I haven't been withholding information from you.  I have been on the course, and there are many, many pictures where I can refresh myself on the "lay of the land."
10. I do?  Please point me to where I said that.  As far as I know, I've only commented on the angle of the sun, the testimonials of other GCAers, and your posts.
11.  OK, I'm pretty sure you get what I'm saying here, but I'll clarify it anyway. Where the sun is depends on the time of year.  In June or July, you might be more bothered on the tee shot.  Earlier or later in the year, the sun will come into play on the second shot, when it's at 270-290 degrees, approximately.  Yes, the trees on the hills are a bit higher, which is why I think the sun on the 3rd shot will not come into play.
12. I never said I was "so familiar."  However, there are buildings behind the green, but as I recall the trees are the highest objects on the horizon, except possibly for temporary structures in tournament play.
13. Not quite sure what you mean by this, but if the sun is sitting at 270 degrees, then the sun could be in your face on your 2nd shot.  For your 3rd, it will likely be behind the trees or too high to bother you.
14.  So we should believe your experience, but ignore his as hearsay?

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

All of my early rounds at Pebble Beach were played in mid to late summer, the one time of year when the tee shot on 18 would really be into the sun (well, maybe a little north of directly into the sunset, but with the sun reflecting off the water on the carry it is pretty bad).

For sure, whenever a hole has coastline, you use the coastline no matter what way it points.  And I doubt there's an architect alive who would have used that bit of coastline for the first hole instead of the 18th.

As for SFGC, the first and 18th holes both point west.  Good for the first, bad for the 18th.  I suspect the choice had something to do with the distant view in that direction ... prior to the trees growing up, it had to be quite a view.

[Gene Greco]

I don't see how you can disagree with Pat on his observations.

            Surely you jest.



He's the only one on this website who evaluates golf courses, not on the quality of the golf holes, but rather on whether his feet are gellin' when walking from green to tee.