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JSlonis

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #75 on: September 08, 2008, 01:04:35 PM »
Deleted.  Nevermind...
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 01:21:24 PM by JSlonis »

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #76 on: September 08, 2008, 01:48:02 PM »
Ian I dont think it is subjective. The best or preferred is Bent grass, you yourself said you would try and promote bent over poa, most Super's would do the same. I think we all except that a life with poa is often the only way, but there are climates which favour bents and other grasses and allow them to be more competitive than poa.
Also poa contracts fusarium very easily and that can take out big patches turf, fusarium does not really affect bent. You could argue take all hits bentgrass and not poa, although in fairness take all is much more likely to impact younger sterile systems than established.
Where I agree with you is that there does come a time as the poa invades that you may as well live with the stuff and promote it.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #77 on: September 08, 2008, 02:12:28 PM »
I know that it shouldn't be a factor, but appearance can be very important to a membership.  I recently visited a club which has 54 holes and was regrassing the fairways and resurfacing the putting greens 9 holes at a time.  The greens were Poa and they were being redone in A-4 bent grass. (They were using bermuda for the fairways)  I looked at the A-4 greens and the appearance was incredible - the color was consistent and made it much easier to see the green contours. I didn't get to putt but the greens looked smooth and the members I spoke to loved the new surfaces.  It has been my experience that Poa greens have many colors in them and the grasses have various textures - am I incorrect in assuming that all Poa is like that?

Ian Larson

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #78 on: September 08, 2008, 02:19:38 PM »
Adrian,

It is very subjective. The mere fact that myself and tons of other superintendents around the world enjoy poa greens and enjoy managing them makes it very subjective.

If you could show me some examples where bentgrass naturally outcompeted poa because of the favorable climate I would love that.

Are you sure the fungus fusarium only likes poa and not bent?

I would only ever promote bent when the poa poulation is minimal. I would only promote poa when the bent poulation is minimal.

All it takes to make poa greens consistent is a verticutting / topdressing program and 20 oz. of primo every two weeks.


Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #79 on: September 08, 2008, 02:53:17 PM »
Adrian,

It is very subjective. The mere fact that myself and tons of other superintendents around the world enjoy poa greens and enjoy managing them makes it very subjective.

If you could show me some examples where bentgrass naturally outcompeted poa because of the favorable climate I would love that.

Are you sure the fungus fusarium only likes poa and not bent?

I would only ever promote bent when the poa poulation is minimal. I would only promote poa when the bent poulation is minimal.

All it takes to make poa greens consistent is a verticutting / topdressing program and 20 oz. of primo every two weeks.


Are you really saying you would prefer a 100% poa green to a 100% bentgrass green?
Subjective is not what you say it is, nothing to do with enjoying or managing. I am guessing that 99% of all new green constructions are sown without Poa in the mix, now unless the 1% are the real clever ones the 99% of us are objectively wrong.
Fusarium rarely touches the European bentgrasses, but ravages through the poa and is promoted under dampish conditions (very UK), high fertility also contributes.
I would have thought Florida would have conditions suited for grasses to out compete poa, South East Asia would, the greens in Southern Spain are pretty pure also.
With your management methods of Poa in the UK, your budgets would bust most clubs, we simply dont have enough staff, many clubs only have 4 greenstaff and very few have in excess of 6.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Steve Okula

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2008, 03:01:16 PM »
Adrian,

It is very subjective. The mere fact that myself and tons of other superintendents around the world enjoy poa greens and enjoy managing them makes it very subjective.

If you could show me some examples where bentgrass naturally outcompeted poa because of the favorable climate I would love that.

Are you sure the fungus fusarium only likes poa and not bent?

I would only ever promote bent when the poa poulation is minimal. I would only promote poa when the bent poulation is minimal.

All it takes to make poa greens consistent is a verticutting / topdressing program and 20 oz. of primo every two weeks.



Ian,

Where are you superintendent now? Where were you superintendent before that?

I have spoken on this thread of an example where Poa out-competed bent. Golf las Americas, Tenerife, Canary Islands, Spain, where I was superintendent from '98-01. Pure Pennlinks, no Poa, (though I did battle with bermuda 419 encroachment).

I am now superintedent at Golf de Joyenval, just outside of Paris, and, I've said before on this thread, listen to me now, Ian, POA IS WAY, WAY, WAY MORE SUSCEPTIBLE TO FUSARIUM THAN IS BENTGRASS.  I have seven years of grey hairs to prove it.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Bill Brightly

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #81 on: September 08, 2008, 03:18:50 PM »
Ian,

Very interesting comments. My guess is that the vast majority of courses in the Northeast US are a 50/50 poa-bent mix (or a percentage close to that.) And my assumption is that the Superintendents on these courses are probably managing these greens in a similar fashion: pulling cores and overseeding with 100% bent. Seems to me that they are in a constant battle to increase the percentage of bent grass. But the poa is somehow more inherently aggressive, or else it would lose the battle due to years overseeding of bent, right?

So if the above is true, you suggest that superintendents, and the USGA agronomists advising them, may be on the wrong track. That is a pretty interesting and bold statement.

If you actually went 100% poa, would you have to more conservative during the weather extremes that we experience in the northeast? Would you have to cut/roll the poa-dominant greens less often during heat waves? When we get torrential rains in the evenings, would you have to be even more careful when you send the equipment out the next day?  And if the answer to those questions are yes, would you expect slower putting surfaces and more member complaints about green speeds?

Lastly, how close are we to a better "seedless" poa strain? If that really works, do you see a movement away from "aeration/overseed with bent" practice?
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 03:20:51 PM by Bill Brightly »

JSPayne

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #82 on: September 08, 2008, 05:59:44 PM »
Ian,

I don't know if you're trying to really rile up some superintendents, but while you do have some good commentary on the many benefits of a well-maintained predominantly Poa green, many of your statements are way off base.

Where do I even start?

First off, you might need to look introspectively a bit if you're going to start calling out "armchair superintendents." By stating this it seems to me that you class yourself as a much better superintendent than those you denigrate. However, any good superintendent would know that each grass type must be managed differently. Sure, some of the basics are the same. But by no means would a good superintendent fertilize, irrigate and thatch manage Poa greens and Bentgrass greens the EXACT same way, as you claim you would. Let's touch on each point:

1) Bi-weekly foliar fert applications: In case you didn't see my post, I have 90-95% bentgrass greens. Working on Poa greens before, I would spray bi-weekly with foliar ferts. With these greens, I use significantly less nitrogren and once this summer went 5 weeks in between 0.1#N applications with absolutely no detriment to turf health or aesthetic appearance. I could go lower rates and spray more often, but why? I had no flushes of growth and no need to add any more fertility to the mix. Good soil management and knowing your turf can allow you to do that. Why spend money and time on fertilizer if your turf doesn't need it?

2) Bi-weekly soil ferts spray: I don't know exactly what you're referring to here, but if you're just talking about trying to improve soil structure, condition and nutrient holding capacity, I see nothing wrong with this, but again.....its not an absolute necessity. As Adrian mentioned, lower budget clubs with minimal staff can only WISH they could spray bi-weekly.

3) Preventative fungicide apps: Good idea, of course, but I'll state again, using my specific locale and experience, Bentgrass requires much less preventative maintenance. With Poa greens, I would be on a two week preventative rotation for the following diseases: Fusarium, Pink Snow Mold, Fairy Ring, Waitea Patch, and Anthracnose. With my current Bentgrass greens, I sprayed for Fairy Ring, Pythium (because of extrememly unusual conditions of 100+ temps and massive amounts of smoke that trapped the heat and kept the humidity high, otherwise I wouldn't have worried about it all) and Dollar Spot. This property in 7 years has yet to see even a hint of Fusarium, Pink Snow Mold, or Anthracnose.

4) 2-3 guys syringing greens: If you're properly managing your irrigation system, absolutely unnecessary, unless you have serious soil problems and you can't deep water your greens. I've watered deeply and infrequently, 3 days a week, all summer and have only had to handwater greens twice, during 100+ F heat spells. Any more handwatering than that and you're just asking for disease to pop up, as all you're doing is increasing the humidty and total leaf wetness time in the turf canopy, both of which are huge factors contributing to disease outbreaks.

5) Aerifying the same way: Fine, but really should depend more on your soil than the turf. If you have problems with water penetration, you should probably look at deep tine aerification or drill & fill. If you have excessive thatch, you probably need smaller holes on tighter spacing coupled with vertical mowing. Whatever the case, aerficiation should not be based on grass type alone.

6) Broom, verticut & topdress: Itneresting you wouldn't take a different style towards this when Poa is a clump grass and Bentgrass, like Bermuda, spreads by stolons & rhizomes. Would you maintain Bermuda fairways like Ryegrass fairways in terms of thatch management as well?

7) Mowing at the same heights: Possible, though there are definetely engineered strains of Bentgrass that are DESIGNED to be able to withstand lower mowing heights. Poa's a wild card......while some natural strains may be able to take it and are used to it, I would think a Poa accustomed to growing at 0.120 would not take kindly to 0.090.

8} Rolling 4-5 times a week: Once again, no brainer, no matter what grass you have. I have yet to see or hear anyone say anything bad about using rolling as a regular maintenance practice on any greens, regardless of grass type. And once again, hard to do with a low budget, minimal crew. Just shows that you really view this topic as what works best for you and not objectively as to what grass OVERALL, in the majority of golf courses, is better, from a FACTUAL MAINTENANCE perspective AND a subjective playability one.

And if you are absolutely desperate for hard, factual numbers:

I use 90% less manpower hand syringing bentgrass greens vs poa.

I use 50% less time spraying and 50% less money spent on chemicals with Bentgrass greens vs poa.

My bentgrass roots are currently 60% deeper in the soil profile than poa root depth in a similar soil profile, making them better able to absorb nutrients and water.

I've had 50% less instance of disease outbreak with turf damage as a result with bentgrass vs poa.

I've used 33% less nitrogen and 25% less total greens fertilizer costs with bentgrass vs poa.

I've had 200% more compliments on aesthetic appearance, ball roll, turf health and consistancy with these bentgrass greens than with any Poa greens at a number of other courses.  ;D

"To be nobody but yourself in a world which is doing it's best, night and day, to make you everybody else means to fight the hardest battle any human being can fight; and never stop fighting." -E.E. Cummings

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #83 on: September 08, 2008, 06:07:09 PM »
Adrian,

You still havent given me any examples where bent out competed poa naturally. Anybody can rattle off regions of the world that have climates suitable for bent.

And yes I do like poa. If I was in a mild, arid climate I would prefer poa. Its a denser grass than bent, noticeably. And it can still synthesize in the absence of sunlight. That doesnt mean that I dont like bent.

If I took a job with 100, 90, 80, 70% bent greens I would do everything to keep poa out and kill off the the 10, 20, 30% poa. Personally, if the percentage gets up to 40, 50, 60% poa, I would probably promote the poa. (if the club is ok with that). Trying to kill off that much poa scares me.

Along with the GCSAA Im also a member of BIGGA. Ive been to your side of the pond several times and I have several friends that work at great clubs over there. I can assure you my management methods are not much different than those in the U.K.. If you are in the business you would understand that those practices are not anything over the top and should at least be the minimum a super should do. If I needed to cut back I would got to a curative fungicide program and roll alot less. Everything else is necessity. If doing the bare minimum is going to break a clubs budget maybe they shouldnt have a golf course then. Or not expect to have healthy, playable greens.

You have to realize that keeping poa out of bentgrass greens can be just as expensive as maintaining poa greens. If you truly knew anything about this business you would see some truth in that. Chemical applications and mechanical removal is needed to get it out and keep it out. The money not used in spraying for anthracnose is going towards the poa eradication program. poa is wildly invasive and keeping it out comes with a cost.

To say "BENT IS THE BEST" across the board is ridculous. I dont think either is "best". This is a big world and to say that bent is "THE BEST" in every situation is not true. Neither bent or poa is "THE BEST" for any situation. Your statements are too general and Im trying to give you opportunities to persuade me with some information that has some substance to it and its just not happening.


Bradley Anderson

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #84 on: September 08, 2008, 07:01:54 PM »
Having just made a move from greens that were predominately bent to greens that are 50 50 bent poa, I have really been amazed at how much more fungicides the poa greens require, and also how much attention I have to pay to fertility.

On my old predominately bent greens I sprayed every two weeks, and added a small amount of Nitrogen (.05 - .07 Lbs/k) and minor nutrients to each tank. I applied potash once a month or so at 1 pound. So in a year I might have a little under a pound of N and 5 to 7 pounds of K.

On the poa greens that I am working with now I am learning that I have to spray fungicides every week, and I need to use higher N rates with each spray. And I am not as aggressive with growth regulators as I was with the bent greens.

I believe that if you go with the lower N rates you can promote the bent, but you can't allow the Poa to get too weak or the anthracnose can take it out. However, what I am going to begin trying now is circling the green with fertilizer using a Scotts spreader every three weeks or so at a light to moderate rate. It seems to me that that's where the anthracnose is most severe - on the edges.

I am not a Poa hater, but I just think that managing for bent is the best stratedgy because bent is hardier and stronger. If under that management scheme there are some strains of Poa that evolve to flourish under that management scheme, then I'm ok with that. Poa is a great putting surface.

I think that mixed poa bent greens are actually some of the best greens that I've played. But there is no doubt that all things being equal, A4 is one hell of a grass.

Ian Larson

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #85 on: September 08, 2008, 07:47:24 PM »
JSPayne,

1. Bi-weekly foliar fert applications.   

The grass plants on putting green surfaces are completely new grass plants every two weeks because of the rate of growth and the frequency of mowing them. Thats why I spray every two weeks at .1 lb. Nitrogen / 1000. If you can go longer, great. Its no secret that bent requires less Nitrogen annually and I never argued otherwise. Spoon feeding at low rates every two weeks is the most efficient way to feed the grass plant. Theres never a flush of growth and with chelated and complexed fertilizer I know that the grass plant is utilizing all of it efficiently.


2. Bi-weekly soils fert applications.

Im a huge believer in good soils. My soils sprays consist of constantly keeping up with potassium, calcium, manganese, magnesium, hydrogen peroxide, humic acid and seaweed extract. Im dealing with problems like high bicarbonates, salts, pH and anaerobic soils. The house is only as good as its foundation. And the grass is only as good as its soil. If I have these issues you tell me why I shouldnt be taking care of the soils.


3. Preventative Fungicide applications.

I hate say it JS but bent also gets Pink Snow Mold, Fairy ring, Waitae Patch, Yellow Patch etc.. You may not get these in your area but this post isnt just about your bent greens. If preventative is what club expectations calls for then thats what the club gets. And preventative is every 3 to four weeks in this case.


4. 2-3 guys syringing greens.

JS I dont use the sprinkler heads on the greens except for once a week on Sunday nights to leach. Then I also use them once a month to flush the greens with 4 hours of water. I keep greens dry. And I do that by syringing. Syringing does not keep the canopy wet. It keeps it cool. If you dont realize this theres a difference between watering a green and syringing a green. A true "volume" of water never hits the green surface and the nozzle never breaks 90 degrees. The greens are misted and only hot spots are watered as they occur. If I threw up the heads 3 times a week then I would have soggy, soft and puffy greens. This is far more efficient water management.


5. Aerify the same way.

why wouldnt I?  If I know my greens are accumulating 20% organic matter annually whether its poa or bent why would I change?


6. Broom verticut and topdress.

It doesnt matter if its poa or bent or its different growth types. If you dont verticut and topdress your greens you WILL have puffiness. My topdressing is based off of diluting the organic matter at the rate it develops over the course of a year. I topdress lightly every other week and sometimes once a week at a lighter rate. This keeps the organic matter diluted and prevents any layering. The topdressing is done immediately after the verticut to give the sand small channels to get worked into the profile. I would also broom and mow the same way. whether its bent or poa im always working for tight, upright growth from the grass plant. Growth types have no relevance whatsoever with these practices. Please tell me whats wrong with this.


7. Mowing at the same heights

Poa CAN be lowered down to .90" after being mowed for decades at .125". Why can I say that? Because Ive done it. When you manage the green well with brooming, verticutting and topdressing you eliminate any chance of puffiness and scalping. When the canopy has all of its macropores filled with sand and the leaves are tight and upright you bet your ass you can lower that height because youve just raised the canopy.

8. Rolling 4-5 times a week

Membership want firm and fast. Thats what theyre getting.




I applaud you for being one of the first guys to actually throw some facts down on the table instead of just throwing out some broad statement. But your whole post is off base. For several reasons....

You could have came across in a positive way to actually show the viewers of this post the facts of the differences between poa and bent management styles. Because what alot of the viewers want with this post is to be educated. And you could have brought some numbers to the table as a comparison, which you did. But, you attacked my cultural practices that are done on poa surfaces and compared them to your bent. Which, duh, I understand thats the big point but youre acting like what you are doing is better and Im off base? Im managing greens that were inherited, took them to the next level and meeting the memberships expectations.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with my program and my philosophies. It is sound agronomics pure and simple. What I do for these greens is what the super at my hometown course does as well. And he only has a third of the budget. Neither of us have never seen ANY anthracnose.

What I mean with "armchair superintendents" are guys that arent even in the business that make broad statements and cant back them up. It was never in reference to other superintendents and I by no means think that Im a better superintendent than the next guy. Im smart enough to know that each club presents its own challenges. I would never get on here and criticize another superintendent for what he is doing at his club when I havent even stepped foot on the property.

Your post sir was the one off base. Ive also worked with pure bentgrass greens and we cultivated and groomed no less than what I do for poa greens. And if i work with bent greens again I still wouldnt decrease cultivation and grooming. I would adjust programs to micro climates and budgets but techniques would stay the same because I know i can push my greens hard and still keep them healthy while producing a product that exceeds the memberships expectations.

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #86 on: September 08, 2008, 07:58:24 PM »
Bradley,

Stress to the grass plant can be a huge promoter for anthracnose. Being aggressive with mowing heights, constant rolling, constant traffic are things that stress and abuse the grass plant. The anthracnose being worse around the edges of the green is a sign. The edges of the green can be the most sensitive sometimes when it comes to stressed grass plants due to traffic and mowing the cleanup pass often.

Do you triplex the greens? If so that cleanup pass could be stressed out from the tires always running over the same spots. The same could be true if you walkmow as well. The machine going over the exact same line is stressful. Ive seen it before and we cut back on mowing the cleanup pass.

When you say circling the green with granular fert do you mean just outside the green or actually on the green?

Ian Larson

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #87 on: September 08, 2008, 08:27:42 PM »
JSPayne,

one more thing. I caught your one post earlier before you deleted it. If your trying to compare poa in the mid-atlantic to poa on the west coast, or any other part of the world for that matter, give it up. Just like I couldnt critique a super without having ever been on his course I would never critique a guy on the other side of the country.

Your case in that last post is null because your comparing the mid-atlantic which is the armpit of the country to the most arid part of the country in southern california. YOU NEEED TO COMPARE APPLES TO APPLES!!!!  Because it doesnt even compare. You have no case.

I would never recommend a club to promote poa in the transition zone. Of course you have disease pressure with poa there. Of course bent is the better option there. Does that mean its the best option for everywhere else in the world? Not in my book.

There are just as many, if not more success stories with poa in this world as there are with bent. If there wasnt then it would never be accepted as a good stand of grass for greens in the industry. Clubs all over the world would be stripping their greens. But are all clubs doing that?

Donnie Beck

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #88 on: September 08, 2008, 09:09:35 PM »
Ian may sound a little over the top with his preaching but his practices are sound. I agree with the majority of what he is saying with the exception of putting the snake oil salesman's kids through an ivy league education. (Ian what percentage of the foliar products you are applying are actually entering the plant?) Anyway it doesn't matter what type of grass you are growing if you don't have sound management practices you are never going to have good greens. With that being said I prefer a good poa surface over bentgrass any day.....

Ian Larson

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #89 on: September 08, 2008, 09:39:34 PM »
Donnie,

To answer your question about how much of the spray is getting into the plant...

To be completely honest I dont know.

But I do know that Im doing everything I possibly can to ensure as much as possible is getting into the plant.

I use urea based Nitrogen sources because urea is naturally the easiest to be taken in by the plant.
I make sure all fertilizer is chelated or complexed with sugar or carbon so the plant is tricked into sucking it up and digesting it.
I stay away from any cheap, ag grade raw materials that have a higher salt content.
I actually always put in a little penetrant wetting agent. The chemistry is designed to make h2o molecules smaller and change the charges so I figured this would also help in preparing the sprays droplets and make it easier to enter the stomata.

and...

most importantly I spray at very low volumes for a carrier. 40 gallons per acre, and I want to go lower. Hopefully all this sets the application nicely to ensure the droplet size is very small, covers more surface area on the leaf tip and is sweet enough for the plant to take it in. I havent done before and after tissue testing which Ive been meaning to do to get some personal data on it. But I will say it has to be more efficient than going at 80 - 100 gallons of water per acre with its larger droplet sizes that flow down into the crown area.

Grant Saunders

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Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #91 on: September 09, 2008, 06:07:46 AM »
Adrian,

You still havent given me any examples where bent out competed poa naturally. Anybody can rattle off regions of the world that have climates suitable for bent.

And yes I do like poa. If I was in a mild, arid climate I would prefer poa. Its a denser grass than bent, noticeably. And it can still synthesize in the absence of sunlight. That doesnt mean that I dont like bent.

If I took a job with 100, 90, 80, 70% bent greens I would do everything to keep poa out and kill off the the 10, 20, 30% poa. Personally, if the percentage gets up to 40, 50, 60% poa, I would probably promote the poa. (if the club is ok with that). Trying to kill off that much poa scares me.

Along with the GCSAA Im also a member of BIGGA. Ive been to your side of the pond several times and I have several friends that work at great clubs over there. I can assure you my management methods are not much different than those in the U.K.. If you are in the business you would understand that those practices are not anything over the top and should at least be the minimum a super should do. If I needed to cut back I would got to a curative fungicide program and roll alot less. Everything else is necessity. If doing the bare minimum is going to break a clubs budget maybe they shouldnt have a golf course then. Or not expect to have healthy, playable greens.

You have to realize that keeping poa out of bentgrass greens can be just as expensive as maintaining poa greens. If you truly knew anything about this business you would see some truth in that. Chemical applications and mechanical removal is needed to get it out and keep it out. The money not used in spraying for anthracnose is going towards the poa eradication program. poa is wildly invasive and keeping it out comes with a cost.

To say "BENT IS THE BEST" across the board is ridculous. I dont think either is "best". This is a big world and to say that bent is "THE BEST" in every situation is not true. Neither bent or poa is "THE BEST" for any situation. Your statements are too general and Im trying to give you opportunities to persuade me with some information that has some substance to it and its just not happening.


Ian, I can assure you that FEW UK GREENKEEPERS will be managing the way you do. You assume to much, why do you assume I am not in the business. It is not ridicuous to say what is best at all, there may be situations where bent grass wont work as well and as we know, poa ingress happens in milder climates and lower budgets. I think you could keep a pure stand of bent in the UK, if you kept off it during the colder days, however that is not practical, but it does show that bent grass can compete and win during our summer months. Southern Europe has a much warmer winter period and probably has 300 out of the 365 days where bent will be a winner over poa.
Here, we can keep them pure for about 3 years here with a major spring weeding out of the poa, but its years 4 onwards where the poa doubles up and at probably just a 5% poa inavasion.. you've lost.
Here in the UK we dont have the range of usuable chemicals and our budgets are tiny, taking you statement futher... 97% of UK courses would close, however Ian I can assure you that many clubs do have health playable greens and by spraying fungicidal treatment only when absolutey needed rather than an 'adhoc' bi-weekly programme we have natural antagonists in the soil that help combat the minor irritations. Now Ian whilst I accept that method may not be suitable in the USA... it is here. Our typical UK product has a mixture of bents, poa's and perhaps fescues on the higher areas, we dont water much as in the main what we get is from the sky and irrigate mainly to supplement in the dry periods. Very rarely do we syringe, in fairness very rarely would temperatures get up to 32 C. The end product is pretty good, not as good as a pure bent sward but the best that can be done given the monies that are given to our greenstaff.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jon Wiggett

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #92 on: September 09, 2008, 09:24:49 AM »




Along with the GCSAA Im also a member of BIGGA. Ive been to your side of the pond several times and I have several friends that work at great clubs over there. I can assure you my management methods are not much different than those in the U.K.. If you are in the business you would understand that those practices are not anything over the top and should at least be the minimum a super should do. If I needed to cut back I would got to a curative fungicide program and roll alot less. Everything else is necessity. If doing the bare minimum is going to break a clubs budget maybe they shouldnt have a golf course then. Or not expect to have healthy, playable greens.


Ian,

working on this side of the pond (Europe) I am sure does present somewhat of a different challenge in many respects to that that you face.  It is obvious that you are very knowledgable about maintaining either a poa or bent sward. I can assure you, if you were to go about here with the attitude you express in the last part of the last quote you would be very hard pressed to find employment here and even more hard pressed to keep any job you got.

What would interest me is what would be you maintenance plan if you were not allowed to use fungicides and no automatic irrigation (no, no full time hand watering either).

Ian Larson

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #93 on: September 09, 2008, 11:31:24 AM »
Adrian and Jon,

First let me admit that these posts have not been specifically aimed towards anyone in your part of the world. Yes I have several friends that work at several good clubs and I myself have been there. But I could never lecture at any length on the challenges your region faces and the solutions you have for them. And not once did I try to say anything about your practices and methods.

All I have said to you guys is how can you possibly make a blanket statement that bent is best? Have you even been to the states or anywhere else in the world to know for a fact that is is the best? In my remarks I have said that I would not say bent or poa is best. Because Im wise enough to know that there are thousands of courses and thousands of microclimates in the world where each grass can be prolific.

The title to this thread is "Why the hatred towards Poa Annua?" And my whole stance has been that poa as a grass shouldnt be hated just because superintendents have had some bad experiences with it. And I bet within the supers that have had problems with it, not many had bulletproof programs and something could have been better. Something got overlooked. And thats not any kind of shot towards supers. God knows Ive made mistakes and looked back and said, "you know...I should have done this. Or shouldnt have done that." There is a lot of luck and human error that goes into growing grass. Its the supers job to ensure that everything possible is being done to keep that plant happy and healthy. Just because a super has anthracnose on his poa doesnt automatically put blame on poa. Anthracnose is induced by constant stress on the plant. If the super knows he has a period in the summer where conditions are going to be wet, hot and humid....he needs to back off from the double cuts, constant rolling, topdressing and brushing.



Adrian,

Yes my program is considered preventative, but I really only spray once a month. And thats only because I know I will get Yellow Patch or Waitae Patch a week or so after I flush. Like clockwork.

I also never assumed nor made a statement saying that UK Supers manage greens the same way I do. All I said that in my experience in the UK and with my UK friends, the practice of foliar feeding or spoon feeding the greens was not some strange and over the top practice. It is proven to be the most efficient way to feed turf. And if I were in the UK I would still do it even if I only had a 6 man crew. I would find a way to get it done. And dont challenge me on that cause Im known to never leave the course. Its commonplace for me to be at work till midnight or so doing such things as flushing or spraying greens. Where theres a will theres a way.

And have I criticized your watering practices? I dont think so. You UK guys are the ones criticizing mine. You guys are in a completely different area of the world!!!! Thats much colder for more calendar days for christs sake!!!! I would hope you dont have to syringe greens!!!!! If you did theres something wrong. You get big rainstorms all year round. I think southern california has had like one good rainstorm in the past two years. So dont criticize me for the challenges I face, no rain and water shortages. My methods are efficient, watering the grass minimally. Just enough to keep it going.




Jon,

Like I said earlier. My experiences in the UK and with my UK friends, practices like handwatering, topdressing, verticutting, rolling etc. were never looked upon as over the top.

Do you not verticut? Do you not topdress? How do you fertilize? Do you think rolling is ridiculous? If my program is so crazy then what is your program? Mowing and spraying a fungicide as needed? We all know Old Tom topdressed himself. All I am doing is grooming my greens to maximize ball roll and trueness while at the same time keeping the organic matter accumulation diluted. But I guess Im a bastard for that.

If I were not allowed to use fungicides I would be even more extreme with the nutrition of the plant and be more catious with cultural activities that may instigate disease. After that its up to nature.

And I wish I didnt have to deal with automatic irritation. I will say this though, you dont have to deal with irrigation issues because nature takes care of it for you. She doesnt give me the same favors. Automatic irrigation is a necessity with my job and so is handwatering. If I were in your shoes with the amount of natural rainfall you get I would have less grey hairs.



My last point to both of you is that yes my program or US programs altogether may seem over the top. Thats no secret to anyone on here I dont think. But its like that for a reason and IMO its all because of macro and micr climates and the many different challenges with disease pressure, water issues, the nature of the two different golfing markets and memberships expectations for course conditioning.

As a superintendent if I were thrown into your world I wouldnt do everything the exact same way. My basic principles would remain the same, but my ways of accomplishing them would mimic the budget and staffing and members expectations. A super has to be a chameleon, if he doesnt adapt to new surroundings and create solutions to a new set of challenges, hes in for a very short career.

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #94 on: September 09, 2008, 12:02:21 PM »
Jeez Ian, who rattled your cage ???Ask a simple question and get your head bitten off ::)

Let me start by saying I have never said that I think Bent is Best and have actually being very positive about poa annua in the right situations. If you start shooting people who are not against you then you will soon find most people will be or maybe that your problem but please don’t make it mine!


I agree that poa as a grass shouldnt be hated just because superintendents have had some bad experiences with it. Every grass is a bad experience with the wrong program, climate or plain bad luck.

I have also never discussed in this thread my preferences in maintenance programs so I am not sure what your comments of

 ‘Like I said earlier. My experiences in the UK and with my UK friends, practices like handwatering, topdressing, verticutting, rolling etc. were never looked upon as over the top’.

‘Do you not verticut? Do you not topdress? How do you fertilize? Do you think rolling is ridiculous? If my program is so crazy then what is your program? Mowing and spraying a fungicide as needed? We all know Old Tom topdressed himself. All I am doing is grooming my greens to maximize ball roll and trueness while at the same time keeping the organic matter accumulation diluted. But I guess Im a bastard for that.’

are all about?

Your thinking is the same as mine on when your not allowed to use fungicides. I too reduce the amount of nutrition to the plant to the absolute minimum. I also look that the soil remains dry and airy through spiking, tining, verticutting and topdressinging as often as the grass will take it. This program I also extend to the surrounds.

I hope you read this post as I have written it and not as an attack on you.

Oh, by the way I never said I was from the UK

Ian Larson

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #95 on: September 09, 2008, 12:28:53 PM »
Fair enough Jon and my apologies. I guess I am on the defensive with this thread because I feel like Im standing in an execution line being shot at by guys that cant believe the fact that I like poa and feel my program is crap. I know my program is solid and it would travel well into other top notch operations.

I make a point to not make general statements that may be taken as criticism to some people. I will not lecture on something I know nothing about. Theres not one way of doing things, Im not stupid. But I felt attacked by a couple guys on here that are saying my program would never work at their courses. And I never tried to prove that it would. I maintain an equal stance between poa and bent. There are different situations where each is BEST. To say that "BENT IS BEST" as a blanket statement is misinformed and naive to me.

poa is a great grass for where its suitable. I know that, other superintendents know that, the universities know that and so does the USGA. With the research going into poa it can only get better as time goes on and we acquire more knowledge about it.



...and your not FROM the UK but are you working there now? 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 12:32:13 PM by Ian Larson »

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #96 on: September 09, 2008, 12:34:55 PM »
The record needs to be set straight about poa annua on this site......


poa annua, MANAGED CORRECTLY, is the best putting surface. 


WHY?   

Because it is the densest grass out there.


MEANING...   

The ball sits up nice and high creating a great ball roll.


IS IT PRONE TO DISEASE AND NEMATODES

Yes, but all grass is prone to disease. Poa is just more susceptible to anthracnose and nematodes. Does it happen all the time to say never have poa greens? No.


DOES IT PUT OUT SEED?

Yep, and if managed correctly the seeds will never affect anything. If the super doesnt groom the green (verticutting, brushing, topdressing) the seeds will stand up all the time and interfere with ball roll.


"poa cant be mowed low enough" ?!?!?!

ARE YOU CRAZY!!!!????   Please tell me why not. Ive seen poa greens on the east and west coast cut at .90". How much lower do you want it?


IS IT LESS HEAT RESISTANT?

Yes, and only because its directing its carbohydrate reserves at maintaining its seed production instead of transpiration. SOLUTION? SYRINGE IT!!! Whats so hard about syringing a green. Which by the way is not "watering a green". "watering a green" is what makes all of you guys end up with wet soggy greens in the summer. All the poa plant needs is a mist at a high frequency throuhout the days heat. It helps it transpirate and prevents overwatering.


DOES IT ROOT SHALLOWER?

Yep, but only when the super isnt doing everything he needs to be doing to get those roots deep in the fall winter and spring. Then maintain through the summer. The super needs to aerify at the right times of the year. He needs to fine tune his fert program. I cant believe the amount of supers who dont pay attention to soil reports and adjust their fert program to it. I see alot that only like granulars a handful of times throughout the year creating peaks and valleys in the greens growth pattern, not helping the roots. I see alot that just go out with cheap fert that isnt chelated or complexed with anything, the plant doesnt want to eat it. Its like giving a kid a flintstones vitamin. The plant is the same way, if the fert is cheap it has a salt content in it that the plant just closes its mouth when you hold the spoon up to it. Supers need to not only think about NPK but also Auxins, Gibberelins and Cytokynins. And then add them to their programs. These occur naturally in the plant and are the communicators between the roots, the crown and the foliage. Theyre vital and supers rarely have them on their radar.


THE SUPER HAS TO BE ON THE BALL

If hes not then poa is the wrong grass for your club. There are a ton of clubs all over the country that have poa greens and are in extreme enviornments. And they are succesful.


WHAT PERCENTAGE OF NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS ARE PLAYED ON POA?

I would have to say almost 100%. Just look at the past ten years. The open has been played at this countries best clubs. And what are their greens? poa.


NATURAL SELECTION

I would say that the most of us are golf purists. And if so why is poa being looked at so badly? If a bent green gets naturally taken over by poa then switch the management practices over to poa!! It naturally wants to be there!!!  Embrace it. Its a great putting surface!!!  But with that comes a tight program enforced by the super. If your super isnt good enough then switching over to the new bermudas or contiunually regrassing with bent is whats best for your club.


THE OAKMONTS, WINGED FOOTS, SHINNECOCKS, MERIONS, RIVIERAS and PEBBLE BEACHS "GET IT".

They maintain their poa greens at the highest level. Which has nothing to do with budget.



Ian- Read your first post. YOU CLAIMED POA TO BE BEST. Line up 100 Super's from anywhere in the world and ask them "do you want pure bent grass or pure poa" I think we all know the answer. The reality is ofcourse different and we have to learn to live with it. I have been considering ripping our greens up and resurfacing them now they are 50-50 poa/bent, the main reason is when they were pure bent they were so much better than they are now, but equally I accept if we embrace the poa and make that the dominant grass then the greens would improve. We will soon have 36 holes, I reckon I could resurface 1 green in 1 day, by stripping the turf, rotavating to say 100mm then consolidatin, rake then seed. By May 1st I reckon I could be back on those greens and they would be better. I am mixed on the idea and I brought this subject up once before but the general feeling was dont do it. I can remember a GCSAA forum back in the 80s and some chap got up and started off by saying "Annual meadow grass, has had a lot of bad press and if someone invented a grass that grows anywhere, reseeds itself, you can chop it down to 0.125 inch etc etc.... with a different name we would all be ordering a truck load"  As long as new courses still seed with bent mixtures as apposed to sowing with poa from the start (and i know it has been done) I'll take bent in front of Poa.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Bradley Anderson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #97 on: September 09, 2008, 01:08:58 PM »
Is Poa the best grass for putting on?

The question is moot because there are so many variables.

While the newer strains of bentgrass have density that compares favorably to the best strains of poa anywhere, it really comes down to each individual club. If a club has a history of managing Poa well over a long period of time, there might be Poa on those greens that is so good that it can't be improved upon with newer grasses. And while those older strains of Poa might require additional care, it is worth the extra effort, or not worth the risk of tampering with.

The newer strains of bent require some extra care too. What they especially require is well drained soil, and on some of the older greens out there there are shade and soil issues that might make Poa the best grass for those greens.

I don't think there is any one size fits all "best" variety for every green in the world, or for that matter, every green in one city.

I once asked an architect what he thought was the best green to build, a USGA green or a California green, and I liked his answer. He stated that the best green to build is the one that the superintendent recommends, because he's the guy who has to make it work. Some of this issue really boils down to what the superintendent is most comfortable working with. I personally am more comfortable with a 50 50 blend of grass on old push-up greens. I am more comfortable with that than I am on a mono-stand of turf on newer USGA greens. But I wouldn't argue that what I am most comfortable with is the best.

I like the variation of texture in the older greens. I think they are more interesting to putt on. And I like the challenge of keeping Poa that is cut, below an 1/8th, alive on a 98 degree day. There aren't too many people who can do that. And I don't mean to sound like I am bragging, it's just that after so many years of doing it, it becomes a part of who you are. Last week we double verticut and topdressed in 95 degrees, to get ready for our member member. Now that was exhilarating. And when you come through a tough period with no scars on your Poa, that's a great feeling of accomplishment.

Bradley Anderson

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Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #98 on: September 09, 2008, 01:17:50 PM »
Bradley,

Stress to the grass plant can be a huge promoter for anthracnose. Being aggressive with mowing heights, constant rolling, constant traffic are things that stress and abuse the grass plant. The anthracnose being worse around the edges of the green is a sign. The edges of the green can be the most sensitive sometimes when it comes to stressed grass plants due to traffic and mowing the cleanup pass often.

Do you triplex the greens? If so that cleanup pass could be stressed out from the tires always running over the same spots. The same could be true if you walkmow as well. The machine going over the exact same line is stressful. Ive seen it before and we cut back on mowing the cleanup pass.

When you say circling the green with granular fert do you mean just outside the green or actually on the green?

Ian,

There was a lot of rolling done here historically with a gang drawn style concrete roller, and where the rollers pivoted and turned on the edges we have some compaction. So yes, that is where we have the most stress, and the most anthracnose pressure. I have been advised to increase my N levels just for that reason, but I would like to keep the N levels low overall because in my experience I feel there is a connection between having tough turf and low N levels.

So rather than increase my feeding of the entire green for the benefit of strengthening the clean-up pass against anthracnose, I'm thinking about just fertilizing the cleanup pass and the collar with a scotts spreader at a moderate rate of say.25 lb of N every three weeks or so would be the best solution. I can also add a little more nutrients to the banks and the approaches while I am making this application too.

What do you think?

Jon Wiggett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???
« Reply #99 on: September 09, 2008, 02:20:07 PM »
Ian, apology accepted :)

If people criticise your defence of Poa annua then remind them that it does happen to be the most successful grass type on the planet (as far as I am aware) and therefor very adaptable. Despite what Tom Doak states it is capable of becoming a biannual and my experience is that it mainly produces seed heads when under stress (so don't stress it). Also, to upset the Bent group (is that politically correct ??? ;D) I would state that many talking about bent state they mean Agrostis Stolonifera when they actually mean Agrostis palustris a totally man made product unlike Poa annua which is mother nature pure (its a matter of opinion which is more able to design something to perform the best man or mother nature but I know which one I am backing).

I am however not from the 100% Poa group as I believe that diversity in the sward is the best way to stop desease from making too many problems. My greenkeeping is based on sound tried and tested methods but I do not rely very heavily on lab reports but rather my intuition and feel. This is not everybodies thing but it works for me and in over 24 years in the industry I have never had cause to spray a fungicide so I must be getting something right as well as been one lucky son of .... ;D

At the moment I am in Switzerland where I have worked on courses ranging from high alpine to one based in a semi arrid climate. I have also worked in Finnland, Norway and the UK.

As for my preference I go very much in the direction of fescue but like it mixed with other grasses. I would imangine that the problem most courses in the US have with fescue is that it probably doesn't handle humidity very well though till now no one has said that to me directly. It will handle heat and drought very well if looked after properly.

JS

you have been surprised why no one has challenged your opinions on Bent. Well as a secondary grass it probably not bad ;D

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