Why the hatred towards Poa Annua???

[TX Golf]

Over the last few days I have been reading the current threads about the "best maintained courses" in the world and the most difficult greens complexes around. I continually found that Oakmont was mentioned in both threads.

This got me thinking. I recalled from the last U.S. Open that the greens at Oakmont are completely Poa Annua. I am from the west coast and have grown up learning that Poa Annua is an absolute evil. I have also come across many other posts on this site that would say the same thing. If this is the case how is it that Oakmont is able to present the "best" greens in the world on this "substandard" putting surface called Poa Annua. Do they a different type of agronomical practice??? Are the rest of us all just stupid??? I don't know, and would love some feedback. Thanks.

Robert

[Matt_Cohn]

My understanding is that Oakmont's poa annua has basically evolved, through 100 years of extreme maintenance, into a grass that does not resemble any other grass, anywhere.

I recall a story that they took some aeration cores and couldn't even get the grass to grow off of the Oakmont property.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Yes, didn't Oakmont's poa at some point somehow go perennial?  How did that happen?

[Adam Clayman]

Poa is a fine surface especially for a sportsman who relishes the vagaries of nature and the concept best described as run O green. The recent onslaugt on the weed is that it's difficult to cut it low enough for the speed demons.

[Bruce Leland]

Most of the current (and historical) knock on Poa surfaces is that you have to contend with the seed heads and they cause the roll of the ball to fluctuate during its travel.  Most new courses are attempting to limit the encroachment of Poa into their bent grass greens utilizing growth retardants and greens encroachment barriers.

Poa is a great surface 90% of the time IF you can control it and keep it healthy.  My understanding is that it is more disease prone, less heat and drought resistant and requires more attention than the new strain bents.

[Dan Herrmann]

Bruce,
I remember one winter in Portland, OR (home of a lot of Poa Annua greens) where we had a spell of 0-10 degree (F) days with strong easterly winds out of the gorge.  No snow was on the greens, so it was just bitterly cold, dry wind.

Many of those greens didn't survive. 

So it can be extreme cold too...

Another nice thing I've seen with Bentgrass - it seems to do just fine if it's underwater for a bit too...

[Tom_Doak]

Poa ANNUA is, by definition, an ANNUAL plant.  That's why it throws up so many seedheads, to renew itself, because it thinks it's going to die every summer.

But some individual plants prove more resistant to drought than others ... so if you have it on your greens long enough, the more drought-resistant plants and their offspring start to dominate.

Either that, or God created Oakmont differently, for those who are so inclined.

[Adam Clayman]

This last winter had the bent checkout unless winter watering was applied. Anyone who played Dismal River can attest. SH does rollout the reels likely once a month. Btw it was meant to read rub o green above.

[Dan Boerger]

I've often wondered the same but have been too lazy/intimidated to ask. Isn't Winged Foot Poa too?

I like putting on Poa greens. Generally not as much grain to deal with and (again from my limited experiences) they seem to be more consistent from hole to hole on the courses I play.

I used to think they were generally slower ... until Oakmont showed me they can be made lightening fast.

I can't believe Oakmont is in such a micro-climate that it's the only place to make magic. I'm sure a lofty budget and years of staying the course (no pun intended) have lots to do with their success.

[John Kirk]

Poa annua requires more water during the warmer months to stay healthy.  Therefore, the fairways are softer and sport a lower coefficient of restitution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coefficient_of_restitution

[Phil Benedict]

Aren't the Oakland Hills greens Poa Annua?

[Bruce Leland]

Bruce,
I remember one winter in Portland, OR (home of a lot of Poa Annua greens) where we had a spell of 0-10 degree (F) days with strong easterly winds out of the gorge.  No snow was on the greens, so it was just bitterly cold, dry wind.

Many of those greens didn't survive. 

So it can be extreme cold too...

Another nice thing I've seen with Bentgrass - it seems to do just fine if it's underwater for a bit too...

Dan, living in Minnesota you'd think that I would have mentioned desiccation, crown hydration, etc. but alas, I forget about Poa for several months of the year.  Certainly open conditions can affect bent as well as Poa.  Thanks for making your point.

[Bill_McBride]

I think poa's okay in year around courses, but transition in the spring can be a mess at seasonal courses such as CC of Fairfax, Virginia where I played for years.  Every spring the poa and the bent fought for water until it got hot enough for the poa to go away and the bent to thrive.

[SL_Solow]

Dan;  I believe it really is a natural selection issue.  At our home course where many of the greens have not been regrassed for more than 80 years we have one area near the rear of our 15th green, shaded by a stand of elms, which has perfect tightly growing smooth Poa Annua which is different from any other grass on our course.  We don't spend any more money on that area nor do we have different methods of preparation in that area.  Like Topsy, it just grew.  We can't make it grow elsewhere and have had some turf experts look at it.  

That said, even "normal" poa can be a fine surface but it is much harder and more expensive to maintain particularly in times of high temperatures.  Also more susceptible to anthracnose.  I am told much of this is due to the fact that it does not root as deeply as the better bents.

[John Burzynski]

Doesn't the Old Course have poa mixed into its greens?  It seems that someplace I read that they allow the poa to encroach on the greens, but not to within a few feet of the common pin placement areas, especially leading up to The Open?

[Steve Okula]

The thing is, when you're talking about Poa annua, you're talking about something over 300 genotypes. There is no generic, Poa annua, just like there is no generic human being.

This is what makes Poa so difficult to control. chemicals effective on one variety won't affect another.

There is a general evolution of Poa in intensely maintained turf like golf greens. It first invades as a pure annual, being a bunch type grass, yellow/green, with loads of seedheads.

Over years and decades of greens maintenance, it begins to mutate/evolve/morph into a different grass altogehter. It becomes finer leafed, darker green, with fewer seedheads, and acts more like a perennial.

This phenomena has been well-observed, but never fully explained.

And so  fine old courses like Oakhill have superb Poa greens. They have had the resources and expertise in place for 80 years to maintian the Poa, and it has adapted itself precisely to those conditions.

Here around Paris, the best greens are found on the old Poa greens at places like 70 year old St. Germain.

Speaking for myself, I don' fight Poa, I manage it. Life is simpler that way.

[archie_struthers]

 


Poa puts even some of the best superintendents in a state of constant fear...the water has to be managed just right ...it's very susceptible to disease....and tends to be a little ratty at certain times of the year ...when it's great it's fabulous

I am totally in awe of the Oakmont greens...somehow they have morphed into this "super strain " of poa ...when Ivisited ther a few years ago they didn't appear to be under any stress at all...despite high play..brutal heat etc etc...perhaps the superintendents can chime in with some insights into the place , the greens appear to be otherworldly

[Bradley Anderson]

The first wave of Poa to invadea golf course is a coarse textured and bunchy leaved grass that produces a seed head throughout much of the playing season. It has shallow roots and it is highly suspectable to disease.

But after a few dozen years or so it can evolve into great turf with good shade tolerance.

[Ian Larson]

The record needs to be set straight about poa annua on this site......


poa annua, MANAGED CORRECTLY, is the best putting surface. 


WHY?   

Because it is the densest grass out there.


MEANING...   

The ball sits up nice and high creating a great ball roll.


IS IT PRONE TO DISEASE AND NEMATODES

Yes, but all grass is prone to disease. Poa is just more susceptible to anthracnose and nematodes. Does it happen all the time to say never have poa greens? No.


DOES IT PUT OUT SEED?

Yep, and if managed correctly the seeds will never affect anything. If the super doesnt groom the green (verticutting, brushing, topdressing) the seeds will stand up all the time and interfere with ball roll.


"poa cant be mowed low enough" ?!?!?!

ARE YOU CRAZY!!!!?   Please tell me why not. Ive seen poa greens on the east and west coast cut at .90". How much lower do you want it?


IS IT LESS HEAT RESISTANT?

Yes, and only because its directing its carbohydrate reserves at maintaining its seed production instead of transpiration. SOLUTION? SYRINGE IT!!! Whats so hard about syringing a green. Which by the way is not "watering a green". "watering a green" is what makes all of you guys end up with wet soggy greens in the summer. All the poa plant needs is a mist at a high frequency throuhout the days heat. It helps it transpirate and prevents overwatering.


DOES IT ROOT SHALLOWER?

Yep, but only when the super isnt doing everything he needs to be doing to get those roots deep in the fall winter and spring. Then maintain through the summer. The super needs to aerify at the right times of the year. He needs to fine tune his fert program. I cant believe the amount of supers who dont pay attention to soil reports and adjust their fert program to it. I see alot that only like granulars a handful of times throughout the year creating peaks and valleys in the greens growth pattern, not helping the roots. I see alot that just go out with cheap fert that isnt chelated or complexed with anything, the plant doesnt want to eat it. Its like giving a kid a flintstones vitamin. The plant is the same way, if the fert is cheap it has a salt content in it that the plant just closes its mouth when you hold the spoon up to it. Supers need to not only think about NPK but also Auxins, Gibberelins and Cytokynins. And then add them to their programs. These occur naturally in the plant and are the communicators between the roots, the crown and the foliage. Theyre vital and supers rarely have them on their radar.


THE SUPER HAS TO BE ON THE BALL

If hes not then poa is the wrong grass for your club. There are a ton of clubs all over the country that have poa greens and are in extreme enviornments. And they are succesful.


WHAT PERCENTAGE OF NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS ARE PLAYED ON POA?

I would have to say almost 100%. Just look at the past ten years. The open has been played at this countries best clubs. And what are their greens? poa.


NATURAL SELECTION

I would say that the most of us are golf purists. And if so why is poa being looked at so badly? If a bent green gets naturally taken over by poa then switch the management practices over to poa!! It naturally wants to be there!!!  Embrace it. Its a great putting surface!!!  But with that comes a tight program enforced by the super. If your super isnt good enough then switching over to the new bermudas or contiunually regrassing with bent is whats best for your club.


THE OAKMONTS, WINGED FOOTS, SHINNECOCKS, MERIONS, RIVIERAS and PEBBLE BEACHS "GET IT".

They maintain their poa greens at the highest level. Which has nothing to do with budget.

[Richard Choi]

Can I just say a big thank you to all the people on this thread?

Poa is something that I always wondered about and I, for one, am learning a lot about it here. And it is the kind of knowledge you are not going to find on Wikipedia.

I think we may already have our first in series of Superintendent Lecture right here.

[TX Golf]

Hey Guys,

Thanks for all the info and answers to my question. I was with many others wondering how Poa is so bad, yet every year while watching the US Open the greens seem to be Poa. I never thought I would get this many responses, but I guess I forgot how many extremely knowledgeable people are on this site. What a great reference. I guess I will have to change my attitude toward this dreaded grass. Thanks again.

Robert

[Garland Bayley]

Wow Ian, Great response, Thanks!

[Pete Lavallee]

Thanks for the very informative post Ian.

Here in San Diego, Torrey Pines redid their greens with A-4 bent the same time Barona Creek opened with the same surfaces; this was in 2001. Seven years down the road Torrey is almost completely Poa, while Barona remains completely Bent. Why; because Barona pays people to get down on their hands and knees and dig it out with pen knives. Their Super, Sandy Clark, explained to us at the first Kings Putter that that was their only way to control it. So Barona can keep their greens drier, firmer and also faster. This is not to say that the greens at Torrey are worst, just different. Managed correctly, even by the City of San Diego, they can provide an excellent putting surface; as we all witnessed during the US Open. Bottom line here in a cool coastal climate is that you will eventually succumb to its invasion; just deal with it.

[Kevin_Reilly]

IS IT PRONE TO DISEASE AND NEMATODES

Yes, but all grass is prone to disease. Poa is just more susceptible to anthracnose and nematodes. Does it happen all the time to say never have poa greens? No.

Nematodes are the reason that many NorCal courses are looking into alternatives to Poa.

[Bruce Leland]

The record needs to be set straight about poa annua on this site......


poa annua, MANAGED CORRECTLY, is the best putting surface. 


WHY?   

Because it is the densest grass out there.

Wow, Ian...that was a great treatise on Poa. Thanks.  Is a typical stand of an evolved Poa really denser than say, velvet? 

When our current Supt. built a new practice green he utilized a blend of Colonial, velvet and one other strain that I can't recall and I was really impressed with the density of the velvet.  Whatever the mix, the green turned out superbly.  Just curious and I'll look for your response.