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Richard Boult

Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« on: September 04, 2008, 09:43:38 AM »
http://www.golfdigest.com/golfworld/columnists/2008/09/gw20080905ginella



A dozen holes have been shaped and grassed at Old Macdonald, including the seventh (top) and the par-5 sixth (below), which has a "Hell Bunker."


Mark Smolens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2008, 09:47:53 AM »
Unfortunately, this statement:  "This fall, Keiser plans a "partial opening" of Old Macdonald (he did the same with both Pacific Dunes and Bandon Trails). Each day, a very limited number of golfers will be allowed to play a 10-hole layout: Nos. 5-10, 11, 14 and 3, before finishing on No. 4," has proved to be incorrect  >:(  My first trip to Bandon will be in late October, and when I read this I immediately contacted the resort to see if my group could partake. . . only to be told that the author is incorrect, and that the early looks won't begin until the spring. :'(

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2008, 10:32:33 AM »
"Partial opening" is incorrect ... but there will be a "very limited number" of golfers, as in a handful.  The course is really not ready for "public" traffic of any magnitude, but I guarantee you at least four guys on this forum will play some of the holes this fall!

Mike_Cirba

Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2008, 10:37:10 AM »
Tom,

Make sure you get these dates down right or 100 years from now some smartass like me will be debating on the holographic golf forum and stating that Old Macdonald didn't actually open in 2008, but actually in 2010!!   

And please don't take any pictures!  ;)  ;D

Richard Boult

Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2008, 11:05:16 AM »
"Partial opening" is incorrect ... but there will be a "very limited number" of golfers, as in a handful.  The course is really not ready for "public" traffic of any magnitude, but I guarantee you at least four guys on this forum will play some of the holes this fall!

Just let me know if you need someone to round out your foursome!

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2008, 04:52:42 PM »
I have a thousand questions.  I'll wait.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2008, 07:05:47 PM »
Mike C:  Actually, Mike Keiser has spoken of staging the grand opening of Old Macdonald on the 100th anniversary of the opening of National, so I was reading that thread with interest ... especially knowing that our course will be ready to play well before July 2010, and thinking that one would be foregoing a lot of green fee revenues to wait for an anniversary that's in dispute.

BVince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2008, 07:20:58 PM »
The course appears to be coming along quite nicely.  How much land is left at the Bandon Golf Complex and how much waterfront is still available?  Is there room for an additional course after Old Mac is complete?
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2008, 07:35:16 PM »
The course appears to be coming along quite nicely.  How much land is left at the Bandon Golf Complex and how much waterfront is still available?  Is there room for an additional course after Old Mac is complete?

My god man, is 4 18 hole courses and a par 3 9-holer not enough for you!!!   ;D


BVince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2008, 07:36:17 PM »
I didn't say that.  Just curious.  Why would you object? ;)
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2008, 07:39:19 PM »
I didn't say that.  Just curious.  Why would you object? ;)

Just kidding of course.  I've heard there is other property available but it would be speculative at best to suggest whether or not another course could be added.

Its a fantastic location, and being a self-admitted Ocean/coastline whore its a perfect fit for me!

Michael Dugger

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Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2008, 08:41:36 PM »
There is no more oceanfront property available.

Now we await the Sheep Ranch being turned into a formalized 18 holes.

It'll happen someday....
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2008, 09:14:20 PM »
Tom Doak - I have an official Bandon Dunes Looper cap.  I'm a darn good looper ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2008, 09:16:10 PM »
There is no more oceanfront property available.

Now we await the Sheep Ranch being turned into a formalized 18 holes.

It'll happen someday....


Michael,

That would be like turning Heaven into a Disney approximation of the afterlife.

Perhaps I'm overly idealistic, but I'd like to see it stay as an esoteric, fog-shrouded, gateway to Asgaard that it's been since inception.

Dan Smoot

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2008, 09:18:54 PM »
The course appears to be coming along quite nicely.  How much land is left at the Bandon Golf Complex and how much waterfront is still available?  Is there room for an additional course after Old Mac is complete?

My god man, is 4 18 hole courses and a par 3 9-holer not enough for you!!!   ;D



In Bandon, no way!!!  2010 can't come fast enough.

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2008, 09:28:11 PM »
Where did CBM build a hole that had a Hell Bunker?  I've played less than half of his courses but I've read about most of them to one degree or another.

Also, from the picture + my feeble memory, I'd say that bunker looks more like The Cardinal at Prestwick than Hell Bunker at TOC.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2008, 11:24:31 PM »
Chip, hello.

One of the objects of the design of Old Macdonald is that we are leaning more on the original design concepts CMB observed when assembling his Ideal Course rather than “copying” features of holes on courses he(they) built.

The Long Hole at St, Andrews, of course, was the inspiration-model that included Hell Bunker.

“Long Holes” were built on virtually all their courses but unfortunately hardly any (spelled” n-o-n-e) captured the main feature of the 14th St. Andrews / Hell bunker complex.

It has always been one of the things that bothered me in their course designs, their not capturing the true strategy of the Long  - that and building a very bona fide representation of the Eden hole.

Chip, also don’t cloud your view of OM’s Hell Bunker complex with the use of sleepers you see in that picture. Bunker berms always used on their “representations” of Hell bunker.

So here you see the essence of what Tom and Jim Urbina are striving for and accomplishing on the Old Macdonald course - a fresh, invigorating use of these inspiration holes and inspirational partial-concepts of holes he was overseas.

BTW: the best representation and placement of Hell bunker was on the Lido course - NGLA’s representation is quite weak.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 10:38:48 AM by George_Bahto »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Ian_L

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2008, 03:28:33 AM »
The article says the course will be either 71 or 73.  Is this true?  If so, are you intentionally avoiding par of 72?  Just curious.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2008, 08:40:38 AM »
Ian:  We just don't really care what par comes out to be, but we're not trying to avoid 72.  The author didn't talk to me about his piece or I would have corrected that.

Chip:  The bunker may LOOK like The Cardinal because of the sleepers, but it is 410-450 yards off the tee, so the position is Hell.  We used the sleepers for the same reason the Scots started doing it in Macdonald's day -- to stop wind erosion in a large bunker.

John Kirk

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Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2008, 09:36:18 AM »
I've said this before in so many words.  I see no reason why this won't be the premiere shot-making, ball-watching course at the Bandon resort.  Pacific Dunes is currently my favorite course at the resort, but in my opinion, it requires a more traditional aerial attack than Tom's Ballyneal course, where optional trajectories and alternative strategies are suggested on a more regular basis.  Ballyneal is also the greatest ball-watching course I regularly play, where the ball disappears and reappears on the fairways, and greenside shots are played away from the hole to a higher degree than Pacific Dunes.

I've seen the land and how the Old Macdonald is laid out.  I see no reason why Tom and Jim and the associates cannot evolve from what must seem to be the pinnacle of success to an even higher plane of design.  Pacific Dunes is, in many ways, a heroic design, where a certain shot of must be executed. with considerable penalty for failure.

In golf, there are perhaps three types of elation.  First, there is the awe of nature and beauty which a beautiful course will induce.  Then there are two types for the actual golf, the triumph of a successful shot (the fist-pumping "Yes!"), or the spontaneous laughter from an amusing result (the disarming "look at that thing go!").

Even though Old Macdonald will be longer and probably more difficult in terms of pure score, I predict it will be more of a "Look at that thing go!" course, and to me, that is a greater accomplishment.

wsmorrison

Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2008, 09:37:18 AM »
Tom,

How long is the hole where you have the Hell Bunker?  And thus, how far is it from the green?  Isn't the Hell Bunker at TOC around 100 yards from the green?  It doesn't appear to me that there was/is a Hell Bunker on the 9th at NGLA unless the interpretation is very loose with a cross bunker about 225 yards short of the green.  

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2008, 09:59:51 AM »
Wayne:  The sixth at Old Macdonald (the Long hole) is about 570 yards ... although I added a tee at 600 yards.  The bunker is the same distance from the green as at St. Andrews -- if you carry it you've got 95 yards to go, and if you lay up short of it you've got 140 or so, but blind, into the prevailing wind, to a fallaway green. 

You are right that Macdonald didn't put his big bunker on the ninth at National so far downrange ... players can almost drive into that one now, though certainly not in 1909!  We wanted the bunker to be a difficult carry for the best players' second shots when the hole plays into the wind, because that's one thing that makes the St. Andrews hole so great.  The fallaway green is another part of it that Macdonald didn't really replicate much, but we have.

Would Macdonald disagree with me?  You'd have to ask him, but I think not.  We are attempting to go back to his founding principles ... and I think our Hell would qualify as one of the "six bold bunkers" he prescribed for his ideal course.  Some of the others are yet to be built.


wsmorrison

Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2008, 10:10:43 AM »
Thanks, Tom.  I appreciate the reply.  Would Macdonald disagree with you?  Who cares?  It sounds to me that while you may be considering his founding principles, you are doing so with a perspective and expertise that benefits from an additional 100 years, which may well yield even better results.   I like the idea of replicating the position of Hell Bunker closer to TOC site rather than NGLA since it should come into play on the second shot.  I also like a fallaway green at the end of your long hole.  The second half of Macdonald's long hole at NGLA is the weakest section of the entire course, by far.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2008, 10:38:14 AM »
It's interesting to see and it sounds as though the philosophic approach of going back to the original inspirations and principles is a very good one.   I'm very excited to see it some day.

It also strikes me that the Hell bunker concept was almost certainly Tillinghast's inspiration for the Hell's Half Acre concept.   

Ajay Yadav

Re: Old Macdonald News at Golf World (Photos)
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2008, 04:57:06 PM »
when I was at Bandon a couple of weeks back, I had the opportunity to walk along the 6th hole of Old Macdonald (along the 6th hole..not on the 6th hole).

To me, the Hell's bunker did not look so intimidating...although it will mean a difficult up and down from about 60-90 yards (post the bunker shot)....

The one thought that struck me all three days  that I saw that hole was that the bunker did not fit in..... it looked out of place..... maybe its because you could see those railway ties from far... that gave the bunker an artificial look....

Are those railroad ties required to hold the face in place? will they remain in place once the course opens?