The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"

[Bruce Katona]

Old Oaks in Westchester - I play there once or twice a year - great old course that may be helped by this weekends impending hurricaine.....the course could lose about 1,000 trees easily .....classic example of the greens committee planting trees in any and every open spot.....to the point where the fairways remain moist due to lack of sunlight.

[Mike Golden]

It would be a big mistake to not mention the course at Del Boca Vista, Phase 2, an original design of Morty Seinfeld and Cosmo Kramer.  It not only has an interesting version of the Biarritz but also holes such as a Capestein, Alpsberg, Redanowitz and the Schmear.  Interestingly enough, Caddies are referred to as 'Schleppers'-has anyone played there recently?


 

[JSlonis]

It would be a big mistake to not mention the course at Del Boca Vista, Phase 2, an original design of Morty Seinfeld and Cosmo Kramer.  It not only has an interesting version of the Biarritz but also holes such as a Capestein, Alpsberg, Redanowitz and the Schmear.  Interestingly enough, Caddies are referred to as 'Schleppers'-has anyone played there recently?


 

Not to mention...the politics at Del Boca Vista make McCain/Obama look like childs play. 

[Peter Pratt]

Brian,

I haven't played Tam O'Shanter in many years, but it has some terrific par fours on its back side. PGA paragon and rules guru Warren Orlick was the long-time head pro there.

[Jed Peters]

I don't think there was any Mackenzie left there after RMG in the early 1960's. Jed, I disagree with you about the course - it's one of my favorites - but more specifically that Rees did anything bad to it. I certainly don't think he took any Mackenzie out because I'm pretty sure there wasn't any Mackenzie left to remove as late as 1996. Somebody on this site has a picture of the 1960's version.

Matt:

You're probably right, sas I say in my post. There probably wasn't much (if any) influence left.

But that doesn't mean the course doesn't fit my eye, or I don't see what "could be" out there.

[Phil Benedict]

Quaker Ridge hosted the Walker Cup and Century and Old Oaks are regular sites for US Open qualifying.  They must have members from other denominations/ethnic groups, right?

[Mike Golden]

I don't think there was any Mackenzie left there after RMG in the early 1960's. Jed, I disagree with you about the course - it's one of my favorites - but more specifically that Rees did anything bad to it. I certainly don't think he took any Mackenzie out because I'm pretty sure there wasn't any Mackenzie left to remove as late as 1996. Somebody on this site has a picture of the 1960's version.

Matt:

You're probably right, sas I say in my post. There probably wasn't much (if any) influence left.

But that doesn't mean the course doesn't fit my eye, or I don't see what "could be" out there.

you mean like this-

[Rich Goodale]

How is that Tam O'Shanter in the Detroit area?  I haven't had a chance to go play it but it looks interesting.

-Brian

I understand that Tam O'Shanter once had Tommy Armour as the touring pro and Archie Simpson as the resident pro.  That's a two-ball which would be hard to beat.

[Jed Peters]

Now Mike Golden's photo shows EXACTLY what i'd like to see out there!

[Tim Nugent]

Terry Lavin, in the North Subs of Chi-town you forgot about Northmoor - surrised no Rossies caught that!

[PCCraig]

I played an event at Northmoor a few years back...fast greens and the renovation they did made it an OK course.

I cannot fathom why so many people on here enjoy Briarwood so much. When I played there I thought it was a nice course and club, but perhaps I missed the gist of the course?

[JohnV]

In addition to the previously mentioned Green Oaks in Pittsburgh (Verona actually), which is a Donald Ross, there is Westmoreland which is a 27 hole facility in Export, east of the city.  Dick Wilson did part of it and I believe it was Joe Finger who did the other, but I'm working from a weak memory.

Green Oaks was known as Westmoreland before a group of members split off and founded it in the 1960s.

[SL_Solow]

I guess its time for me to weigh in with respect to the Chicago area.  Barney, I'm glad you enjoyed your day at Briarwood; I couldn't find the link on your post.  
Part of my motivation is to correct the misperceptions set out by J. Winick.  As noted, you don't have any historical perspective about Chicago.  As such, your statements are inaccurate.  For many years Chicago clubs were almost exclusively divided into "restricted" (non Jewish) and preponderantly Jewish clubs.  Jews were not welcome as members (and in some instances) as guests in most clubs.  As a result Jews formed their own clubs.  In the south suburbs, Ravisloe and Idlewild were formed in the first decade of the 20th century.  On the North Shore, Lake Shore was built at about the same time and Northmoor came in the late teens.  Bryn Mawr, an in city club was formed in the early 20's. Green Acres was built in the late 20's. Later on Twin Orchards acquired its courses in Long Grove.  Briarwood was formed in 1958 and purchased its Colt and Alison course (built in 1921) in 1964.  Hillcrest was formed in the 1960s.  Ravinia Green is also of relatively recent vintage.

There were a few mixed clubs but they generally were not equity clubs.  The most famous was George S. May's Tam O' Shanter.

Two factors have led to a lessening of "restrictions."  The first is the advent of housing development related clubs.  Those who buy homes, regardless of faith or other classifications generally can join.

The second is economics.  Many older wonderful clubs located in areas which are no longer economically desireable found it necessary to admit members who previously they would not have considered because the pool of available members was diminishing.  To the best of my knowledge, this started in the early 1980's at Beverly.  More recently Olympia Fields, which had always been extremely restricted has opened up.  Other clubs have admitted less than a handful of Jewish members while the majority remain as they were.

As for the Jewish clubs, those in the south suburbs are hurting economically and are open to all while retaining a significant Jewish population attributable in large measure to long time members.  The north side may be slightly "overclubbed" and it is possible that a couple could fail in the forseeable future.
As for the caliber of the golf, it varies.  I am too prejudiced to talk about Briarwood but it is very solid.  Some very good holes on most of the courses but nothing in the "top 100" range.

Finally, who ever had Skokie as a Jewish club had it 100% backwards although I believe there may be less than a handful of Jewish members now.  It is a wonderful golf course.

[John Kavanaugh]

SL,

The link http://tinyurl.com/5neh6t is simply to the Briarwood web page under the guest section.  http://briarwoodcountryclub.com/fw/main/Club_History-5.html

[archie_struthers]

WOODCREST and LINWOOD in south Jersey

more in Philly

[Mike Golden]

Now Mike Golden's photo shows EXACTLY what i'd like to see out there!

Jed, so would a number of knowledgeable members but that golf course is gone forever, a victim of I-280, eminent domain, and the members from the 1960's who didn't fully appreciate the historical significance of the golf course.  Had the renovation taken place 5-7 years later, after some of the work at Pasatiempo and the Meadow Club had been started, it might have been different as this other work brought MacKenzie's legacy to the forefront in NorCal.

[Mike Golden]

Bob,

It's not so much as to what he did there that displeases me (I think the course is a fine, fair test of golf) but rather displeases my "eye". I can tell that the shape was taken out of the greens and bunkers by a single play, and the "old timey-ness" and classic feel were thusly pulled out.

This was accomplished by (seemingly on my one view around the property) "reesing" up the bunkers (sharpening up edges, taking out "wildness", deepening them), pushing up the greens, etc.

I have no problem with his lengthening of the course--but the greensites--which you can see originally were fantastic (post Lock/done by mackenzie) and this has been lost.

My take on it was that years of neglect and "average" club maintenance (and undoubtedly by the work of Robert Muir Graves!)  practices probably lost most of the mackenzie that was there anyhow--and this necessitated the re-do.

While I think it's a great option, and a place I could play (and would play) whenever, just that I think that the club's location/site and layout lend itself to a more "classic" approach.

Regarding the younger members wanting to toughen it up, I played unaccompanied the visit I had there, on a reciprocal, so I can't speak to that aspect of your query.

Jed

Jed, the greens and bunkers were totallly changed from MacKenzie to very basic shapes by Bob Graves in the 1960's renovation.  I'll never know why he rerouted so much of the golf course when at least 13 of the original holes could have been left in place-it could have been the club wanting like that or it could have just been his vision-it was his first solo project.  I can tell you that the Rees construction project was all done first rate-I had Pete Galea at the club (who is an expert at this) and he noted how well the green surrounds were done and the care taken to make sure that the greens would last a very long time.  You can't really develop a true appreciation for the golf course on one play, there are many subleties that get overlooked on the first play.

Bob, it was definitely the younger, lower handicap players who wanted the course tougher although the post-60's course was apparently pretty difficult in it's own right, with very small greens that required very delicate touch on chip shots around the greens.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I concur with SL Solow's economic analysis on the changes taking place within "historically Jewish clubs" and all clubs in Chicago with respect to membership policies. This phenomenon is happening throughout the country. After all, a club is a business.

Nevertheless, the main thrust of my thread is the golf courses of these clubs. There are many built in the "Golden Age" and designed by the likes of Ross, Tillinghast, Flynn,Park and others. I think JWinick's comment as to the quality of the courses is way off base as evidenced by the national rankings.

Let's hear more on the courses.

[Dan Herrmann]

Steve,
JWinick may be on to something about the quality of land that many of the courses built on.  Thinking of the course Ronald M mentioned, Woodcrest in Buffalo, he's right.

This course is built on pretty bad land.  It's very flat and devoid of interest.  If I recall correctly, it's also land that's subject to occasional flooding.   The course is quite good for the land it's on, though.   (Good enough that I used to sneak on during Monday caddy days!)

Compare that to Park and CCB about 5 miles to the east along Sheridan Drive.  These courses have great land and are better courses.

The "Other" Woodcrest that I know, in Southern NJ, isn't really that far from Pine Valley.  This land has good movement, but it's certainly not as good as PV.   But, as I've said before, there's a helluva golf course there hidden under all those trees!

I think that JWinick was only suggesting that these clubs were challenged because they didn't have the ability to get the best ground way back then.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Dan,

I think the quality of the land is a function of when the club was founded.  Many of the clubs in question were founded pre WWI- Century in 1895, Philmont in 1906, etc.

[bill_k]

There are probably scores of predominantly Jewish clubs in South Florida-with almost all of them being on flat, uninteresting terrain. However, one of my favorite courses in the entire state regardless of affiliation is Banyan Golf Club. They might have just recently gotten around to getting a handful of gentiles in there...many of the members also belong to Palm Beach CC and there was some tension for years with the Eveglades Club.
The golf course is a lot of fun. There are quite a few subtle elevation changes and it possesses a superb routing, especially considering the small parcel of land it sits on. It is golf only, with no swimming pool and two tennis courts that rarely get used. Its a little short by today's standard (maybe 6700 from the tips) but hands down the best Joe Lee course I have ever played. A minor hidden Florida gem IMHO. Morgan Pressel has been a member there for years.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

A club similar to Banyan in SE FL is The Falls Club that also has a Joe Lee course.

Of course, Palm Beach CC is another.

[JWinick]

If you read my post, I was making a comparison between my experience playing golf in the NY-area versus Chicago.  And, I would point out that I am a member of the tribe and can speak intelligently on Jewish clubs versus non-Jewish clubs.   It is inarguable that there is more discrimination in the NY-area than the Chicago-area.   

I don't pretend to me a historian.   

I guess its time for me to weigh in with respect to the Chicago area.  Barney, I'm glad you enjoyed your day at Briarwood; I couldn't find the link on your post.  
Part of my motivation is to correct the misperceptions set out by J. Winick.  As noted, you don't have any historical perspective about Chicago.  As such, your statements are inaccurate.  For many years Chicago clubs were almost exclusively divided into "restricted" (non Jewish) and preponderantly Jewish clubs.  Jews were not welcome as members (and in some instances) as guests in most clubs.  As a result Jews formed their own clubs.  In the south suburbs, Ravisloe and Idlewild were formed in the first decade of the 20th century.  On the North Shore, Lake Shore was built at about the same time and Northmoor came in the late teens.  Bryn Mawr, an in city club was formed in the early 20's. Green Acres was built in the late 20's. Later on Twin Orchards acquired its courses in Long Grove.  Briarwood was formed in 1958 and purchased its Colt and Alison course (built in 1921) in 1958.  Hillcrest was formed in the 1960s.  Ravinia Green is also of relatively recent vintage.

There were a few mixed clubs but they generally were not equity clubs.  The most famous was George S. May's Tam O' Shanter.

Two factors have led to a lessening of "restrictions."  The first is the advent of housing development related clubs.  Those who buy homes, regardless of faith or other classifications generally can join.

The second is economics.  Many older wonderful clubs located in areas which are no longer economically desireable found it necessary to admit members who Previously they would not have considered because the pool of available members was diminishing.  To the best of my knowledge, this started in the early 1980's at Beverly.  More recently Olympia Fields, which had always been extremely restricted has opened up.  Other clubs have admitted less than a handful of Jewish members while the majority remain as they were.

As for the Jewish clubs, those in the south suburbs are hurting economically and are open to all while retaining a significant Jewish population attributable in large measure to long time members.  The north side may be slightly "overclubbed" and it is possible that a couple could fail in the forseeable future.
As for the caliber of the golf, it varies.  I am too prejudiced to talk about Briarwood but it is very solid.  Some very good holes on most of the courses but nothing in the "top 100" range.

Finally, who ever had Skokie as a Jewish club had it 100% backwards although I believe there may be less than a handful of Jewish members now.  It is a wonderful golf course.

[JWinick]

Steve:

Way off base?  If the clubs that would not admit Jews were formed first, would they not have the first choice of land?   It does not mean that Jewish clubs are on bad land.  It just means that in some markets, the non-Jewish clubs were formed first and took some of the choicest properties.  Look at Long Island.   The best Jewish club on Long Island is probably Fresh Meadow.   Yet, Long Island has probably 10 golf courses better than Fresh Meadow.   

My other point was, quite frankly, that many Jewish clubs are more country clubs than golf clubs.  Things like the clubhouse, food, and other amenities are often better than non-Jewish clubs.  However, the golf courses are often neglected relatively.   

As for rankings, I'm not slamming Quaker Ridge, Fenway, or any other great Jewish clubs. 

I concur with SL Solow's economic analysis on the changes taking place within "historically Jewish clubs" and all clubs in Chicago with respect to membership policies. This phenomenon is happening throughout the country. After all, a club is a business.

Nevertheless, the main thrust of my thread is the golf courses of these clubs. There are many built in the "Golden Age" and designed by the likes of Ross, Tillinghast, Flynn,Park and others. I think JWinick's comment as to the quality of the courses is way off base as evidenced by the national rankings.

Let's hear more on the courses.

[Jed Peters]

Jed

Jed, the greens and bunkers were totallly changed from MacKenzie to very basic shapes by Bob Graves in the 1960's renovation.  I'll never know why he rerouted so much of the golf course when at least 13 of the original holes could have been left in place-it could have been the club wanting like that or it could have just been his vision-it was his first solo project.  I can tell you that the Rees construction project was all done first rate-I had Pete Galea at the club (who is an expert at this) and he noted how well the green surrounds were done and the care taken to make sure that the greens would last a very long time.  You can't really develop a true appreciation for the golf course on one play, there are many subleties that get overlooked on the first play.

Bob, it was definitely the younger, lower handicap players who wanted the course tougher although the post-60's course was apparently pretty difficult in it's own right, with very small greens that required very delicate touch on chip shots around the greens.

Thanks Mike for your awesome response.

I really loved my round around there, and would welcome (warmly) any excuse to see your fine club again. I thought it was a great test of golf in a great city. I could only imagine what "might have been" based on your photo--whoa!

Basically, I think I need to get there again to give it a fair and complete shake--see the course really for what it is, not what it WAS (and can't be any more due to the reasons you state.)

Best,

Jed