The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"

[Steve_ Shaffer]

For Jewish clubs, golf served as just one of many reasons for seeking membership. The club became a center for Jewish life, providing privacy so an extended family of sorts could celebrate holidays and dining, and pursue community service or charity work.
That kindred behavior often has led to distinct differences between Jewish clubs and other private facilities. Jewish clubs keep outside corporate outings to a minimum. They offer full-service meals all the time, not just on weekends. They usually keep a bigger staff, which typically translates into better service but higher costs for labor and benefits.
One interesting cultural aside, according to McMahon: Jewish clubs consume less alcohol, lowering revenues from one of the most profitable components of any private-club operation.

The profit on gin-and-tonics alone has probably paid for a lot of lawn-mowing at classic WASP courses.

http://isteve.blogspot.com/2012/08/decline-of-jewish-country-clubs.html

The demise of Century CC in Phoenix,mentioned in my earlier post above,  is generally attributed to less alcohol consumption. On the other hand, a non Jewish club in the Philly 'burbs is well known for its high alcohol consumption and profitability. The had very reasonable annual dues.

[Adam Warren]

In Kentucky (Louisville) there is only one traditionally Jewish club that I am aware of, and it has fallen on hard times in the past few years, so I am certain they do not discriminate as to who joins.  It was bought a year or so ago by the Jewish Community Center I believe.

No Louisville clubs can really afford to discriminate against the Jewish either, as I would guess not very many are at capacity with the exception of Midland Trail.  To be honest, "Jewish discrimination" is something that ever even occurred to me prior to learning about Standard Country Club.  It's just not a thing in Kentucky for the most part, or even my generation.

[PCCraig]

AS long as this topic has been brought up, I will address the the anti Jewish, anti Sematism in Chicago and here in Fl.

It is very evident, especially now that I am in the real estate business. I can tell u all the clubs and gated communities that do not want Jews, and how it would shock you.

I can tell you the realtors who protect their own and what a crock of shit that is.

I can tell you the clubs that only want to admit 10 "good Jews" and all about that

I can tell  you about Seminole, Jupiter Hills, Lost Tree, Loblobby Pines and others that are too good for Jews

If you think Anti-Sematism is rampant in Europe, so is it here.

I  can also tell u about in in Chicago, clubs that you never admit a Jew, let alone allow one to play.

Still true in Minneapolis as well as far as I know.

Jason,

Really? I obviously haven't lived here very long but I wasn't aware?

[cary lichtenstein]

pCraig:

When I was young, a very long time ago, I was a raving liberal.Over the years in business, both as an employer, a buyer, a seller and lots of other things, I was initially shocked and then came to accept the fact that the world for the most part does not like Jews.

I could tell you stories, that suppliers of mine in the textile business, on their 3rd scotch, would blurt out things that would shake my bones. I never confronted them except that 1 year later, if I could, they never did business with me again.

I see it today in the real estate business, in the golf business, and anyone who denies it is full of themselves. As your self, how many Jews being to the top 100 courses? And you will find the answers immediately

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Getting back on the topic of this thread:

Pittsburgh has 2 "HJC" clubs-

Westmoreland (Dick Wilson) http://www.westmorelandcc.com/  

and Green Oaks (Ross) http://www.greenoakscc.com/

Any comments about these 2 courses?

[Steve Lang]

  for the tribe's listing... midwest city of Toledo,OH

in the 1960's the HJC:  Sunningdale CC 1926 (renamed Tamaron CC post-1972) (Weber)
also per punch up by Ben Cowan in later post #185: Glengarry 1921, (only gca reference i can find is consulted by SP Germain, redone by Cavalear) i had totally forgotten about Glengarry, now called Stone Oak CC in Holland,OH just west of t-town in Springfield Township where Farr was played.

cause folks couldn't become members at:

Inverness Club 1919 (Ross+)
Sylvania CC 1917-19 (Willie Park Jr.)
Toledo CC, 1897 (Willie Park Jr.)
Highland Meadows CC 1925 (Weber)
Heather Downs CC, 1925 (Rockefeller)

[Chris_Blakely]

for the tribe's listing... midwest city of Toledo,OH

in the 1960's the HJC:  Sunningdale CC 1926 (renamed Tamaron CC post-1972) (Weber)

cause folks couldn't become members at:

Inverness Club 1919 (Ross+)
Sylvania CC 1917-19 (Willie Park Jr.)
Toledo CC, 1897 (Willie Park Jr.)
Highland Meadows CC 1925 (Weber)
Heather Downs CC, 1925 (Rockefeller)

Steve,

I was under the impression that Highland Meadows was designed by Sandy Alves.  I have always wondered who designed Tamaron (FNA Sunningdale) as it is on a unique property (portions in Michigan and Ohio).

Thanks,

Chris

[Steve Lang]

  Chris,

I found HM originally attributed to Harold Weber in a Toledo Blade article about the Silverman, Farr, & Weber induction to the Toledo Hall of Fame ..related to the Farr LPGA event.   Yes, I also have seen HM attributed to Alves

I find this: "The Fairways at Twin Lakes (in Kent,OH) was built in 1923 as Twin Lakes Country Club. It was designed by Sandy Alves, a golf course construction manager for the world-famous Donald Ross.

Impressed by his work, Ross recommended Alves to the members at Shaker Heights Country Club. Alves was hired to supervise construction of its Donald Ross course, and when construction was finished he stayed on as the Shaker’s first Golf Professional. Eight years later, Ross and Alves were chosen to design and build a course for The Masons of Cleveland, and they created Acacia Country Club in 1920. Alves remained as Acacia’s professional until his death in 1939.

While pro at Acacia, Alves designed a number of other Cleveland area courses, including the two courses at Highland Park in Cleveland, Ridgewood Golf Course in Parma, and Madison Country Club. He also designed Highland Meadows Country Club in Toledo and French Lick Resort in Indiana."  

the french lick design is i guess par for the age    and Seems like Alves was in many places at the same time by these reportings.

As an ex-Toledoan, I'm going with the local guy, hero.. not someone from Cleveland!

from Judd Silverman:
... “I am similarly honored. I'm aware of who has been inducted in previous years and I'm flattered that I've been selected to join them. It's a privilege to go in with Jamie and it's ironic that Harold Weber is the third inductee. With him having designed Highland Meadows, it sort of brings all three of us together.”

Although the Toledo Golf Hall of Fame is only five years old, Weber's induction is already overdue. Not only was he the city's first golfing star and a 14-time club champion at Inverness Club, where he was a founding member, he was also Toledo's first golfer to be noted on statewide and national levels. He was a four-time Ohio Amateur champion.

He studied golf course design at the hands of S.P. Jermain, who built the Ottawa Park course, and observed as the legendary Donald Ross produced the championship course at Inverness.

Weber, who died in 1933, designed courses at Sunningdale (now Tamaron), Chippewa and Riverby Hills, but his best layout was
his first - Highland Meadows opened in 1925 - and that was obviously influenced to some degree by Ross' then-recent work at Inverness.
“Highland Meadows and Inverness are both beautiful parkland courses where you can see some similar bunkering, similar contours in greens and a similar use of topography,” Silverman said. “So, perhaps, Weber brought some of the Ross influence with him when he designed Highland Meadows. Like Inverness, it's a very natural fit with the land that was available.”

And it's a natural fit that three men who, directly or indirectly, have played key roles in the Farr Classic are entering the Toledo Golf Hall of Fame at the same time. "

[Chris_Blakely]

Steve,

Interesting, I have played all of the Toledo courses attributed to Mr. Weber.  Chippewa does not have the same feel as Tamaron and Highland Meadows.  Riverby Hills I believe was redone by Harold "Pappy" Paddock in the 60's and any original portion that may remain is the back 9.  I also believe a portion of the original course was across the street.  The Fairways at Twin lakes, Ridgewood, Madison, Highland Meadows and Tamaron have always struck me as very similar from a design standpoint.

I wonder if Mr. Weber worked with Sandy Alves or vice versa.

Thanks for the intel on Harold Weber,

Chris

[Jud_T]

Interesting that the one male Jewish Major winner only ended up winning the Open after he became a born again Christian.  

[BCowan]

for the tribe's listing... midwest city of Toledo,OH

in the 1960's the HJC:  Sunningdale CC 1926 (renamed Tamaron CC post-1972) (Weber)

cause folks couldn't become members at:

Inverness Club 1919 (Ross+)
Sylvania CC 1917-19 (Willie Park Jr.)
Toledo CC, 1897 (Willie Park Jr.)
Highland Meadows CC 1925 (Weber)
Heather Downs CC, 1925 (Rockefeller)

Steve,

Glengarry was the only Jewish club in the Toledo area I was aware of.  It's now called Stone Oak, which hosted the first Jamie Farr.

I was suprised to read Harold Weber on this thread.  A good regional archie.

Riverby has potential

I didn't know that about Sunningdale.  Nice find

[Patrick_Mucci]

Interesting that the one male Jewish Major winner only ended up winning the Open after he became a born again Christian.  

Jud,

I'm trying to figure out why you would post the above.

What does one's religion have to do with playing golf

[Patrick_Mucci]

AS long as this topic has been brought up, I will address the the anti Jewish, anti Sematism in Chicago and here in Fl.

It is very evident, especially now that I am in the real estate business. I can tell u all the clubs and gated communities that do not want Jews, and how it would shock you.

I can tell you the realtors who protect their own and what a crock of shit that is.

I can tell you the clubs that only want to admit 10 "good Jews" and all about that

I can tell you about Seminole, Jupiter Hills, Lost Tree, Loblobby Pines and others that are too good for Jews

If you think Anti-Sematism is rampant in Europe, so is it here.

I  can also tell u about in in Chicago, clubs that you never admit a Jew, let alone allow one to play.

Cary,

I can't speak to Chicago clubs, but, I will offer a contrarian position when it comes to golf clubs, especially Jewish golf clubs.
One that I think you'll understand.

Jewish golf clubs are inextricably woven into the fabric of the surrounding and supporting Jewish community.
We both know why Jewish clubs were formed and we both know why they remained vigilant and true to their Jewish roots while the world around them was begining to become homogenized.  They had to for survivability

For 50, 75 and 100 years, Jewish clubs were an integral part of the Jewish community.
That was their identity.
Had they opened their gates to non-Jewish members, early on, they would have begun to lose that identity with each suceeding generation.
In order to survive as a Jewish club and remain an integral part of the Jewish community, they had to retain exclusionary admissions policies.
It was a key to their survival.

Today, for a variety of reasons, Jewish clubs are admitting non-Jewish members.
But, they have to be careful, for if they admit too many non-Jewish members, the club will lose it's identity and it's connection to the Jewish community.
It's critical that those clubs retain their historical identity and an ongoing connection to the Jewish community.

Hence, quotas are a practical methodology for selectively integrating the club.
A methodology that brings an element of diversity while preserving the Jewish heritage and retaining their connection to the Jewish community.

You and I both know that there have been debates about the "religion" versus "ethnicity" aspect of Judaism.
It's my opinion that religion is a significant element inherent in a Jewish club, and I think that separates them from many other clubs.

Hence, I'm of the opinion that Jewish clubs should continue to remain selective in terms of their admissions policies.
That they should utilize quotas in structuring their memberships, today and into the future.
If they should lose their historical and inherent connection to the Jewish community, they'll never regain it.
And then, they'll have nowhere to turn in terms of access to other clubs.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[Jud_T]

Interesting that the one male Jewish Major winner only ended up winning the Open after he became a born again Christian.  

Jud,

I'm trying to figure out why you would post the above.

What does one's religion have to do with playing golf

Apparently ones religion has had, and continues to have, entirely too much to do with playing golf.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Interesting that the one male Jewish Major winner only ended up winning the Open after he became a born again Christian.  

Jud,

I'm trying to figure out why you would post the above.

What does one's religion have to do with playing golf

Apparently ones religion has had, and continues to have, entirely too much to do with playing golf.

Religion may affect what club you belong to, but a U.S. Open is just that, Open to all who meet the playing qualifications

[cary lichtenstein]

Sorry, but i neither buy that or agree. Jews are the most liberal, accepting group on the planet. Jews will be delighted to accept any qualified member and probably hold a higher than for accepted Jews that know.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

All,

It's very difficult to keep this thread "on topic." I am interested in the " golf courses of the historically Jewish clubs. " However,  we all know the reason for the formation of the clubs in the early 20th century. Bear in mind the founders of these clubs "back in the day" were mostly German Jews who discriminated against the Eastern European Jews for many years. Just read the books by Stephen Birmingham-"Our Crowd" and "The Rest Of Us." Today, the situation is different for the most part. In the major metro areas, with rare exceptions, "HJC" remain strong. Otherwise, in smaller areas, these clubs are struggling for various reasons. On the other side, many old line WASP clubs have opened their previously restricted memberships. Some have not. Remember, private clubs are private. There's a place for every one in golf.

That being said, any comments about the 2 courses at "HJC" in Pittsburgh that I mentioned above- Westmoreland (Dick Wilson) and Green Oaks (Ross) ?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Sorry, but i neither buy that or agree. Jews are the most liberal, accepting group on the planet. Jews will be delighted to accept any qualified member and probably hold a higher than for accepted Jews that know.

Cary,

You need to re-read my post, evidently you didn't understand it.

[Tim Martin]

AS long as this topic has been brought up, I will address the the anti Jewish, anti Sematism in Chicago and here in Fl.

It is very evident, especially now that I am in the real estate business. I can tell u all the clubs and gated communities that do not want Jews, and how it would shock you.

I can tell you the realtors who protect their own and what a crock of shit that is.

I can tell you the clubs that only want to admit 10 "good Jews" and all about that

I can tell you about Seminole, Jupiter Hills, Lost Tree, Loblobby Pines and others that are too good for Jews

If you think Anti-Sematism is rampant in Europe, so is it here.

I  can also tell u about in in Chicago, clubs that you never admit a Jew, let alone allow one to play.

Cary,

I can't speak to Chicago clubs, but, I will offer a contrarian position when it comes to golf clubs, especially Jewish golf clubs.
One that I think you'll understand.

Jewish golf clubs are inextricably woven into the fabric of the surrounding and supporting Jewish community.
We both know why Jewish clubs were formed and we both know why they remained vigilant and true to their Jewish roots while the world around them was begining to become homogenized.  They had to for survivability

For 50, 75 and 100 years, Jewish clubs were an integral part of the Jewish community.
That was their identity.
Had they opened their gates to non-Jewish members, early on, they would have begun to lose that identity with each suceeding generation.
In order to survive as a Jewish club and remain an integral part of the Jewish community, they had to retain exclusionary admissions policies.
It was a key to their survival.

Today, for a variety of reasons, Jewish clubs are admitting non-Jewish members.
But, they have to be careful, for if they admit too many non-Jewish members, the club will lose it's identity and it's connection to the Jewish community.
It's critical that those clubs retain their historical identity and an ongoing connection to the Jewish community.

Hence, quotas are a practical methodology for selectively integrating the club.
A methodology that brings an element of diversity while preserving the Jewish heritage and retaining their connection to the Jewish community.

You and I both know that there have been debates about the "religion" versus "ethnicity" aspect of Judaism.
It's my opinion that religion is a significant element inherent in a Jewish club, and I think that separates them from many other clubs.

Hence, I'm of the opinion that Jewish clubs should continue to remain selective in terms of their admissions policies.
That they should utilize quotas in structuring their memberships, today and into the future.
If they should lose their historical and inherent connection to the Jewish community, they'll never regain it.
And then, they'll have nowhere to turn in terms of access to other clubs.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Deleted

[Steve_ Shaffer]

All,

I give up. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,

My initial guess is that the courses built in the "Golden Age" we're of a high quality and designed by "Name" architects.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,

You are correct- Park, jr, Tillinghast, Ross, Colt/Alison, Raynor, etc all did work in the "Golden Age" for "HJC" In my first post on this thread in '08 I referenced :

Golf Digest

Quaker Ridge is 33 in America's Greatest 100 and  7 in NY state
Century is 20 in NY state
Franklin Hills is 21 in Michigan
Mountain Ridge is 14 in NJ
Hollywood is 15 in NJ
Broadmoor is 15 in Indiana

Golfweek

Quaker Ridge is 35 in Best Classic
Fenway is 60 in Best Classic
Franklin Hills is 63 in Best Classic
Engineers is 79 in Best Classic
Hollywood is 83 in Best Classic

[Tom Bacsanyi]

If I marry a Jewish girl can I join Franklin Hills?

[Ryan Hillenbrand]

Steve,

Interesting, I have played all of the Toledo courses attributed to Mr. Weber.  Chippewa does not have the same feel as Tamaron and Highland Meadows.  Riverby Hills I believe was redone by Harold "Pappy" Paddock in the 60's and any original portion that may remain is the back 9.  I also believe a portion of the original course was across the street.  The Fairways at Twin lakes, Ridgewood, Madison, Highland Meadows and Tamaron have always struck me as very similar from a design standpoint.

I wonder if Mr. Weber worked with Sandy Alves or vice versa.

Thanks for the intel on Harold Weber,

Chris

Harold Paddock also designed Westwood in St. Louis, and I had never before heard of him.

[David Amarnek]

Ryan,
We sure wish we could figure out how it was that Harold Paddock was chosen to design Westwood's new course on Conway Road.  Any documentation which would have shed light on the subject was most likely lost in an all-too-common clubhouse fire in 1944.  My guess is that one of the influential Westwood members must have had some family or business connections in Ohio and liked what he saw of Paddock's work and engaged him to design the course. 
David