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Patrick_Mucci

Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #150 on: April 19, 2014, 11:30:58 PM »
Pat,

if I remember correctly, Woodbridge spent a lot on their club house and was sold to the town for $6.9 million in 2009.

http://www.woodbridgect.org/wnews/?FeedID=352

Steve,

I've fought at the committee and board level against incurring debt at clubs my entire life.

The problem was, that for the longest time, times were good and no one thought that they would end.

Woodcrest, Shackamaxon, Woodridge and so many other clubs spent money recklessly, mostly building club houses as a tribute to the Taj Mahal.

And, how did these morons fund these projects ? 

With debt.

They counted on the future members to pay for the obligations created by today's members.

Sounds familiar doesn't it.

In truth, the generation that created this debt didn't experience the Great Depression, and their parents admonitions, borne of unpleasant experiences, went unheeded, as times were "good"

Pay as you go should be the motto displayed at every club's front gate and included in their by-laws.

End of rant  ;D


Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #151 on: April 20, 2014, 10:07:45 AM »
Patrick - you're SO right.

One of the best character builders in my life was my late mother.  She was born in '32, and, after her father passed away at a young age, spent part of her childhood living in "projects".   The fiscal conservatism that she taught me has served me very well, and you're right - it would serve country clubs well too.

Also - our LDS friends know that too much debt leads to a kind of bondage.


Nigel Islam

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #152 on: April 20, 2014, 11:15:31 AM »
Patrick - you're SO right.

One of the best character builders in my life was my late mother.  She was born in '32, and, after her father passed away at a young age, spent part of her childhood living in "projects".   The fiscal conservatism that she taught me has served me very well, and you're right - it would serve country clubs well too.




Agreed. My dad was born in India & my mom in England and they grew up during World War 2. The values  passed on from them have been invaluable. Thanks Dan and Pat for helping me to think of them today.

Paul Gray

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #153 on: April 20, 2014, 03:58:21 PM »
Pat,

if I remember correctly, Woodbridge spent a lot on their club house and was sold to the town for $6.9 million in 2009.

http://www.woodbridgect.org/wnews/?FeedID=352

Steve,

I've fought at the committee and board level against incurring debt at clubs my entire life.

The problem was, that for the longest time, times were good and no one thought that they would end.

Woodcrest, Shackamaxon, Woodridge and so many other clubs spent money recklessly, mostly building club houses as a tribute to the Taj Mahal.

And, how did these morons fund these projects ? 

With debt.

They counted on the future members to pay for the obligations created by today's members.

Sounds familiar doesn't it.

In truth, the generation that created this debt didn't experience the Great Depression, and their parents admonitions, borne of unpleasant experiences, went unheeded, as times were "good"

Pay as you go should be the motto displayed at every club's front gate and included in their by-laws.

End of rant  ;D


Mucci,

What happened around here? I go away for a while, come back and the first thing I read on returning is written by you......and it's hugely sensible!

Incredibly unlikely though it may be, if we ever end up on a committee together it seems we might actually manage to agree on something. Not sure how I feel about that. ;)
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #154 on: April 20, 2014, 06:19:48 PM »
Paul Gray,

I think you'd feel enlightened, as if you had an epiphany  ;D

Don't ever forget that everyone is entitled to my opinion. ;D ;D

Tim Gavrich

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #155 on: April 17, 2015, 09:32:35 PM »
Thought I'd resurface this interesting topic rather than start a new one that might not gain much steam.

I played Banyan Golf Club today and found it to be quite enjoyable. The course did not blow me away, but I left feeling as though it and the other aspects of the club suit the members' purposes pretty perfectly.

The course was designed by Joe Lee and opened in 1973; it's a pretty on-the-nose example of golf courses built in that era by people not named Pete Dye - it's very straightforward tee-to-green, lots of "4 and 8 o'clock" greenside bunkering but almost always enough room to run a ball up onto a green, which is necessary for a club that seems to take a lot of rounds from older male and female players.

I thought there was an interesting aesthetic contrast between the two nines. On the front, each hole is at least mostly isolated with a border (well off the fairway, mostly) of palms and palmettos, mostly, keeping it out of sight of adjacent holes. Under those vegetative borders is the hard-packed sand that serves as a good and unintrusive cart path surface. But the back nine, for the most part, has almost a savanna-like feel, with a big contiguous field of maintained grass connecting holes 10-15. The last three holes are more like the front side. It wasn't a jarring difference, but I was struck by it.

The course was in really excellent shape - very green, certainly, but firm enough that shaping approach shots in the right direction was advantageous. The greens were the perfect speed, given that there was some grain in them. Downhill down-grain putts were quite slick. I was also pleased to see that the primary rough is kept quite short - it's not the type of place where the membership prioritizes the ability to brag about how tough the course is.

Likewise, the clubhouse is not ostentatious and blends in perfectly to the environment. The '70s seemed to be a pretty hit-or-miss time architecturally; Banyan's clubhouse struck me as a hit.

Suffice it to say that I thought there was a great deal of balance at Banyan. I am not nearly well-traveled enough to make any declarations about whether this put-togetherness is typical of traditionally Jewish clubs, but there you have it.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #156 on: April 17, 2015, 09:55:26 PM »
AS long as this topic has been brought up, I will address the the anti Jewish, anti Sematism in Chicago and here in Fl.

It is very evident, especially now that I am in the real estate business. I can tell u all the clubs and gated communities that do not want Jews, and how it would shock you.

I can tell you the realtors who protect their own and what a crock of shit that is.

I can tell you the clubs that only want to admit 10 "good Jews" and all about that

I can tell  you about Seminole, Jupiter Hills, Lost Tree, Loblobby Pines and others that are too good for Jews

If you think Anti-Sematism is rampant in Europe, so is it here.

I  can also tell u about in in Chicago, clubs that you never admit a Jew, let alone allow one to play.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 09:57:34 PM by cary lichtenstein »
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #157 on: April 17, 2015, 10:14:33 PM »
Most clubs in Chicago can't afford to discriminate, but some still do. Some won't take Jews some won't take Goyim. Most accommodate. I played an old line Jewish club in town today with my buddy who is the first NJ member. And I'm not saying New Jersey!  We had a great day. Like every time I've played there.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #158 on: April 17, 2015, 10:41:18 PM »
AS long as this topic has been brought up, I will address the the anti Jewish, anti Sematism in Chicago and here in Fl.

It is very evident, especially now that I am in the real estate business. I can tell u all the clubs and gated communities that do not want Jews, and how it would shock you.

I can tell you the realtors who protect their own and what a crock of shit that is.

I can tell you the clubs that only want to admit 10 "good Jews" and all about that

I can tell  you about Seminole, Jupiter Hills, Lost Tree, Loblobby Pines and others that are too good for Jews

If you think Anti-Sematism is rampant in Europe, so is it here.

I  can also tell u about in in Chicago, clubs that you never admit a Jew, let alone allow one to play.

Still true in Minneapolis as well as far as I know.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #159 on: April 18, 2015, 12:33:09 AM »
@ Tim

Thanks for reviving this thread. Banyan, The Falls & High Ridge are all non residential "HJC" clubs in the West Palm area. Here's an old thread:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=47971.0

@Cary & Jason

I'm in the process of gathering more information for an article about the only "HJC" in my new hometown- the Phoenix area- the NLE Century CC, founded in the 1950s, with a course by Johnny Bulla. The members sold the club due to financial distress in 1977 and became public and is now known Orange Tree Golf Resort, It does have a hotel/time share component, hence "Golf Resort."  It's very playable and is usually in good condition.  Century was founded for the usual reasons as the old line clubs in the area were restricted. Now they're not. Phoenix probably remains as the only major metro area without a "HJC."
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #160 on: April 18, 2015, 02:44:14 AM »
Thought I'd resurface this interesting topic rather than start a new one that might not gain much steam.

I played Banyan Golf Club today and found it to be quite enjoyable. The course did not blow me away, but I left feeling as though it and the other aspects of the club suit the members' purposes pretty perfectly.

The course was designed by Joe Lee and opened in 1973; it's a pretty on-the-nose example of golf courses built in that era by people not named Pete Dye - it's very straightforward tee-to-green, lots of "4 and 8 o'clock" greenside bunkering but almost always enough room to run a ball up onto a green, which is necessary for a club that seems to take a lot of rounds from older male and female players.

I thought there was an interesting aesthetic contrast between the two nines. On the front, each hole is at least mostly isolated with a border (well off the fairway, mostly) of palms and palmettos, mostly, keeping it out of sight of adjacent holes. Under those vegetative borders is the hard-packed sand that serves as a good and unintrusive cart path surface. But the back nine, for the most part, has almost a savanna-like feel, with a big contiguous field of maintained grass connecting holes 10-15. The last three holes are more like the front side. It wasn't a jarring difference, but I was struck by it.

The course was in really excellent shape - very green, certainly, but firm enough that shaping approach shots in the right direction was advantageous. The greens were the perfect speed, given that there was some grain in them. Downhill down-grain putts were quite slick. I was also pleased to see that the primary rough is kept quite short - it's not the type of place where the membership prioritizes the ability to brag about how tough the course is.

Likewise, the clubhouse is not ostentatious and blends in perfectly to the environment. The '70s seemed to be a pretty hit-or-miss time architecturally; Banyan's clubhouse struck me as a hit.

Suffice it to say that I thought there was a great deal of balance at Banyan. I am not nearly well-traveled enough to make any declarations about whether this put-togetherness is typical of traditionally Jewish clubs, but there you have it.
I always thought the 2 nines were vstly different, never really liked the back nine
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #161 on: April 18, 2015, 04:36:25 AM »
I work with most of the Jewish and formerly Jewish clubs around Toronto and Montreal.
There are very few left and it appears that in one more generation and there may be none.

I've always been stunned by the discrimination that led to their formation.
It's not the discrimination aspect, as bothersome as that is for me, but how "recently" this was still a problem in Canadian society.
Interestingly, people of colour were welcome well early on, "long" before Jewish members of society were welcome at many private clubs.

I always thought I lived in "Toronto the Good" until I became part of Jewish Golf community.


With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Jason Way

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #162 on: April 18, 2015, 09:04:40 AM »
Even though Chicago clubs have to change practices for practical reasons, I suspect that the exclusionary spirit will likely remain for a long time, which is unfortunate.

This thread reminded me of the story of Albert Lasker commissioning William Flynn to build the NLE Mill Road Farm course because he couldn't join any of the local WASP-havens (I'm a Lake Forest born WASP, so I can say that). 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-06-26/news/0906240565_1_albert-lasker-first-tee-club

Although it was not a club, was this the first Jewish course in Chicagoland?  Dan Moore must know... 
"Golf is a science, the study of a lifetime, in which you can exhaust yourself but never your subject." - David Forgan

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #163 on: April 18, 2015, 10:14:30 AM »
@Jason Lake Shore CC (1908)  and Bryn Mawr CC (1918) are older. Lake Shore was founded by Julius Rosenwald, President of Sears Roebuck.

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #164 on: April 18, 2015, 10:51:04 AM »
It isn't just traditionally Jewish golf clubs that are disappearing.   Article on the Jewish deli's changes:  http://www.philly.com/philly/food/20150416_Jewish_delis__Co-opted_by_assimilation.html


Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #165 on: April 18, 2015, 11:03:08 AM »
@Jason Lake Shore CC (1908)  and Bryn Mawr CC (1918) are older. Lake Shore was founded by Julius Rosenwald, President of Sears Roebuck.



Bryn Mawr is where I played yesterday. Great club, great restoration by Jim Nagle. And the club recently started seeking out non Jewish members. A couple (two pals of mine) have joined.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Sam Morrow

Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #166 on: April 18, 2015, 12:03:18 PM »
I'm shocked by all this talk of antisemitism in what are supposed to be the cultured parts of America. Here in the south neither myself or any relatives have ever been treated poorly.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #167 on: April 18, 2015, 12:34:04 PM »
I'm shocked by all this talk of antisemitism in what are supposed to be the cultured parts of America. Here in the south neither myself or any relatives have ever been treated poorly.

Sam ,
Same here.......the big baptist clubs are also going away ever since a couple of those big time preachers got caught servicing the choir directors...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Terry Lavin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #168 on: April 18, 2015, 12:34:12 PM »
I'm shocked by all this talk of antisemitism in what are supposed to be the cultured parts of America. Here in the south neither myself or any relatives have ever been treated poorly.

The discrimination cuts both ways in Chicago, but it's dying on the vine, for a variety of reasons.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #169 on: April 18, 2015, 03:30:25 PM »
Even though Chicago clubs have to change practices for practical reasons, I suspect that the exclusionary spirit will likely remain for a long time, which is unfortunate.

This thread reminded me of the story of Albert Lasker commissioning William Flynn to build the NLE Mill Road Farm course because he couldn't join any of the local WASP-havens (I'm a Lake Forest born WASP, so I can say that). 

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2009-06-26/news/0906240565_1_albert-lasker-first-tee-club

Although it was not a club, was this the first Jewish course in Chicagoland?  Dan Moore must know... 

As I understand it, Lasker started Mill Road Farm because he lived off the first tee of Lake Shore and thought it was too busy. But Ravisloe goes back to 1901.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2016, 09:18:33 PM by Tim_Cronin »
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #170 on: April 18, 2015, 08:42:08 PM »
I have only been lucky enough to play at a few Jewish clubs, but the food has always been superlative. 

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #171 on: April 18, 2015, 09:09:14 PM »
Jews are great eaters, poor drinkers. I remember the club manager at Bob O Link telling our manager that his bartenders spill more than our club members drink.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Josh Stevens

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #172 on: April 18, 2015, 09:28:45 PM »
Only one historically Jewish club in Australia as far as I am aware, the Monash Country Club in northern Sydney.  Not a masterpiece architecturally and the Jewishness now diminished but the need for its formation still an interesting footnote

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #173 on: April 18, 2015, 09:54:37 PM »
Jews are great eaters, poor drinkers. I remember the club manager at Bob O Link telling our manager that his bartenders spill more than our club members drink.

That's probably not too good for the bottom line!   ;D

John McCarthy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The golf courses of the "historically Jewish clubs"
« Reply #174 on: April 18, 2015, 11:23:06 PM »
Who designed the original Twin Orchard before they moved because of the semi-eponymously named airport was going in?

Edit: http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=25494.0;wap2

Langford.  Nevermind.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 11:26:06 PM by John McCarthy »
The only way of really finding out a man's true character is to play golf with him. In no other walk of life does the cloven hoof so quickly display itself.
 PG Wodehouse