Laying up on par threes

[AndrewB]

Having recently layed up on a par three for the first time that I can recall (the second at Royal Dornoch), and having gotten up and down for par to win the hole making me think it was a good idea, I started to wonder what other par threes have caused players to lay-up.  The sixth at Royal Dornoch also comes to mind, I've heard stories about the 10th at Winged Foot West, and the 16th at Cypress Point surely requires some to layup given the carry distance.

What other par threes present a realistic option for laying up?   Is the layup an attractive option because there is a great distance to carry or the severity of the penalty if one misses the green?  In general, is causing players to consider laying up short of the green a characteristic of a good hole or one that is too severe?

I suspect like everything else this has been discussed before on here.

[Jed Peters]

The third at pasatiempo.

No doubt, a mid iron shot over the carry bunker to the left side of the fairway with a pitch on may be a smarter play than hitting fairway wood or driver for some.

With some of the membership at Pasatiempo, this is more out of necessity than choice as well.

[JESII]

I believe Billy Casper laid up onall four par 3's at Winged Foot, all four days when he won in '59.

I watched Jeff Knox lay up on the 11th at Cc of Charleston about 10 years ago in the Azalea in the first two rounds on his way to 65 - 67 andan eventual win.

I lay up on the 5th at Pine Valley, but only because I cannot reach the green...

[Kalen Braley]

Both Carnoustie and Oakmont have a long par 3 where many would layup I suspect.

I think the most compelling one I ever saw was the hole Mike Cirba posted months ago.  Can't remember the course, but it was no more than 140 yards IIRC with a green tucked in the back corner of the property with OB left, long, and right for the most part. Looked very intimidating, even with no more than 9 iron in hand.

[wsmorrison]

The 17th at Merion East.  Someone in an Open did it on purpose each day and made par.  I cannot recall who did it, but whoever it was, he did not win the tournament.   I thought it was Casper, but with Sully's post, I might just be confused.  Nahh...can't be that  

[Tom Huckaby]

You know Andrew, I think this is that very rare new topic here.  At least I can't recall this being discussed generally; though I think the idea of laying up on certain par threes has come up in discussions of particular holes.

So this is a great one!

And of course this doesn't happen too often; for one thing, there are going to be very very few holes where it really is the best play, but for another and more important thing, it takes a lot of ego-check to make this play even if it is the best one.

Another famous one to add is #3 on Winged Foot West - cited often from some long-past open winner (man I forget which one)... and from my one playing it, I can see it as a very viable play.  It's a long tough shot, and missing the green in the wrong place is indeed death.  I think it's even a bit more severe than #10 in this respect.

I can't think of any other options, to be honest!  But in general I'd have to say that if the layup choice is due to severity near the green, that's a better thing than a layup that most players can't make.  That is, I'd say the shorter the hole is where a layup is the best play, the better the golf hole is in this respect.

TH

[Garland Bayley]

I regularly lay up on a short par 3 on my home course during tournaments, because I have this hook that sneaks into my swing without warning and missing the green three paces right (I'm lefty) is OB. I think this type of situation takes the fun out of a hole and is bad architecture.

BTW: This has often been discussed here.

[TEPaul]

I've played Pine Valley's #5, oh I don't know, maybe 300-400 times in my life and I've only ever tried to get all the way to the green about five times! 


For some reason the idea of using a driver on a par 3 is just a concept I've never been able to wrap my mind around for some reason and I've basically never tried to do it.

I do recognize, however, that George Crump, who was a damn good player and tournament player probably used nothing but his driver on that tee. His driver was fairly famous----it was called Bolivar!   

[Tom Huckaby]

The third at pasatiempo.

No doubt, a mid iron shot over the carry bunker to the left side of the fairway with a pitch on may be a smarter play than hitting fairway wood or driver for some.

With some of the membership at Pasatiempo, this is more out of necessity than choice as well.

Hmmm... not sure I agree with this, Jed, at least not for those with the ability to hit a ball 220 yards decently straight.

I'd say aiming left is the wisest play, no matter where the pin.... but I can't see intentionally leaving the ball on the hill.  The front right bunker is not a horrible place, and heck even right trees is not going to be totally dead - not to the extent of intentionally foregoing any chance at the green.  Beyond this, where does one leave it to have an easy shot?  Anything on the hill short left will be a blind pitch, not exactly all that much better than the worse results nearer the green....

And Garland, I'd say we have discussed laying up on individual holes lots of times - but not the general concept, not the questions Andrew asked.  Do you recall this?  Not that it matters much.... hell repetition is everything here.  I just think young Andrew deserves some credit for trying.  

[SPDB]

To Huck and JES' posts, it was Billy Casper and it was the 3d hole (not all of the par 3s) and he laid up four days.  

This is a good example of narrowing the topic because the 3d at WFW is different from CPC #15 or PV #5. Accomplished players (like Casper) don't lay up because the length or carry is onerous and missing the green is trouble. On the contrary, I believe Casper's main concern was that he would hit the green, only that he would hit the green and be above the hole.

[Kalen Braley]

Found the Mike Cirba thread.  Here is the hole!



http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,33957.0.html

[David_Tepper]

Andrew -

Having spent a lot of time on the chipping green at the Olympic Club and watched many, many golfers tee off of the par-3 third hole, I would suggest a lot of them should think about laying up on that hole (your truly included!).

Just hit a smooth 6- or 7-iron down in front of the green, chip on and walk away with a 4. Much easier than hitting your 2nd shot from somewhere down by the 4th tee.

DT

[Mike Leveille]

Andrew:

For me, the question of whether it makes sense to lay up on a par three would be dependent on the situation.  If I'm just playing a Saturday morning game with buddies, no way am I laying up, regardless of risk, unless I physically cannot carry a hazard with even my best Driver.  Now, make it a tournament round, and that is a different story and would depend on the circumstances and type of tournament.

The best example of a potential lay-up par three that I play regularly under tournament conditions (club championship, etc.) is the 5th hole at my home club, Settindown Creek.  It is a 190 yard par three with a narrow but deep green that has water just off the right edge and a deep bunker left, but with an area for a lay-up type shot short and left of the green.  Going for the green is definitely the most intimidating shot on the golf course.

If I'm playing the hole in the medal play club championship, I will most likely play to the lay up area, in order to take a double bogey or worse out of the equation.  In a match play tournament, the decision gets more complicated.  If I have the tee, I will play for the green if I feel good about my iron game that day but be perfectly content to lay up if I have any doubt, as I still have a good chance of halving or winning the hole from the lay up area.  If my opponent has the tee, my decision would most likely be dictated by his shot.  If he hits a good shot on the green, leaving a sure par or possible birdie, I'm almost certain to go for the green.  If he goes for the green and puts it in the water or bunker, I'm almost certain to lay up.  If he lays up, its depends again on my confidence level on the given day.

The other factor that comes into play here is where in the round the potential lay up par three falls.  If the 5th at Settindown were instead to fall as the 17th hole, I suspect my decision as to whether to lay up or not would be significantly altered based on the status of my match or medal play round.

I personally think that a par three such as the 5th at Settindown, that brings a lay up option into the equation because of the severity of penalties for missed shots as opposed to sheer length, is a good hole.  The same is true of the 2nd at Dornoch, and I have seen many mid to high handicappers make that play.  I am curious to hear the circumstances that caused a player with your game to lay up on the 2nd at Dornoch, presumably in the Shield.  Obviously it worked out, as you won the hole.

Mike

 

[Tom Huckaby]

To Huck and JES' posts, it was Billy Casper and it was the 3d hole (not all of the par 3s) and he laid up four days.  

This is a good example of narrowing the topic because the 3d at WFW is different from CPC #15 or PV #5. Accomplished players (like Casper) don't lay up because the length or carry is onerous and missing the green is trouble. On the contrary, I believe Casper's main concern was that he would hit the green, only that he would hit the green and be above the hole.

GREAT point and very correct.  The issue there is definitely that above the hole is completely dead; thus off the green short is better than on the green long.  Great call, and a proper play for most.

Hmmm... there are likely quite a few holes where this is the case... the task remains having the ego-check ability to make the right play.

You know what else I think is cool?  Holes like this that allow a decent layup spot - like WFW #3.  I'm thinking about 18 Pasatiempo, where many spots on the green are dead... but there also really is no place to layup.  There is a place in the world for do or die holes like that for sure, but in the end, aren't holes like WFW#3 superior?

TH

[Rich Goodale]

Andrew

You will find as you get older that you lay up on par-3s with increasing frequency, partly because you see what disasters await you when you play, say, a 4-iron to a back pin on the 2nd at Dornoch or a 6 to the 6th, or even a 9-iron to the 10th downwind, but also partly because you try to hit the "proper" shot, mishit it, find yourself in a serendipitously good position, and then say seamlessly, "I was laying up, of course...."

All the best

Rich

[Bob_Huntley]

Andrew,

Bobby Locke laid up on Carnoustie's 16th green all four rounds in the 1953 Open. He was the defending champion.

Bob

[Stan Dodd]

I recall hearing thast in the final round Club Championship at Panmure both players laid up on a 165 yard hole because the penalty for being above the hole was an almost certain putt off the green.

[AndrewB]

I can't think of any other options, to be honest!  But in general I'd have to say that if the layup choice is due to severity near the green, that's a better thing than a layup that most players can't make.  That is, I'd say the shorter the hole is where a layup is the best play, the better the golf hole is in this respect.

Tom, I definitely agree with you about this since I feel the shorter hole where a player chooses to layup suggests a more challenging and enjoyable green and surrounds.  But, I'd also emphasize your last few words ("in this respect") given how many other ways in which two holes can be compared.

Does anyone feel that a hole where one can reach the green but chooses not to means the green and surrounds are likely too severe, or is this good design?  Does the fact that one is trying to reach the green in regulation (rather than off the tee on a par four or on the second on a par five) affect your thought process at all?

[Tom Huckaby]

Andrew:

Stan's mention of Panmure got me thinking about your last question; that is, my first reaction to reading that is man that must be a stupid green.  But here I am praising WFW#3 for pretty much the same reason... so I have confused myself.   

I guess it comes down to this:  if the green is SO severe that laying up short is not just the wise play but the ONLY play, then the green is too severe.  This to me would mean that the green is so severe that the ball won't stay on it regardless of where one tries to play the shot, just due to gravity.  So long as there is a place on the green where the ball will stay, I'd say it's very cool design to make players so fearful of the bad places that actually missing the green on purpose becomes a wise play.

And yes, to me it does effect things that the shot in question is one reaching the green in regulation.  If it's not that, then there is obviously a very viable - and normal - choice to leave the shot off the green.

TH

[AndrewB]

Having spent a lot of time on the chipping green at the Olympic Club and watched many, many golfers tee off of the par-3 third hole, I would suggest a lot of them should think about laying up on that hole (your truly included!).

David, good point.  I play a sort-of half-layup on the third at Olympic.  I'll hit a shot that will land short (or just on the front if I really hit it well).  If my ball bounces on, great, if not, that's fine.  I'd rather be short than long or wide, and I feel more comfortable with the club that may bounce on than the one that will definitely carry to the hole.

Come to think of it, I play a similar shot on the sixth at Royal Dornoch.  I try to select a club that if I hit it well will land just on the front and if in doubt I err on the side of the shorter club.  More often than not I find myself landing a few feet short on the upslope to the green and rolling back a bit, where I can putt up on the green.  I of course find it much easier to get down in two from there than anywhere long, left, or right.

On both of these shots I am hoping to get on the green, though.  When I layed up on the second at Royal Dornoch I knew I would be at least 15 yards short of the green.

[Paul Stephenson]

I recall hearing thast in the final round Club Championship at Panmure both players laid up on a 165 yard hole because the penalty for being above the hole was an almost certain putt off the green.

A front pin placement on the 9th at my home course is the same.  Short is the play, even you end up in one of the bunkers that are short left and right of the green.  Before everyone goes  , there is an opportunity to run the ball onto the green, but it's narrow.

[Mark Bourgeois]

What about 17 at Ganton?

Mark

[AndrewB]

Mike, thanks for your comments regarding tournament vs. casual play, stroke vs. match play, where the hole falls in the course, and the potential state of the match.  I think they are all good points and the hole you describe seems to do a good job of making you think and potentially rewarding you for doing so.  It sounds like a good hole.

I am curious to hear the circumstances that caused a player with your game to lay up on the 2nd at Dornoch, presumably in the Shield.

This was in the finals of the Shield this year.  They played the upper right "blue" tee most of the days and that seems to change the angle and the distance just enough to cause me trouble.  I had played the hole six times before the finals and only hit the green once, every other time missing it left.  Depending on where my ball landed (left side of the green and rolled off or on the slope left of the green), I ended up with either a relative easy up and down (twice), a near impossible up and down (twice), and once the ball was lost in the bushes and I had to go back to the tee.  If I remember correctly, I had made two pars, two bogeys, one double, and one triple, so clearly my approach was not working that well.

My Dad always lays up on this hole and, before the final match, I asked him about the layup play (where he aims, how far he tries to hit it, what the resulting shot is like).  He was also caddying for me all week and witnessed my previous play, and agreed laying up was the better play given the scores I had made.  I was probably more anxious about laying up than "going for it" since I was questioning myself, but all his comments and experience with that play helped, and it worked out well.

One thing I should mention is that when I got up to my ball I realized that there's not all that much room for error in that area either.  It's only a little wider than the green so you're really counting on the fact that you can hit an eight iron straighter than a five iron.

[Bill Brightly]

The 14th at Overpeck (NJ) County Course I kid you not..

3 over and Qualifying for Bergen Am. 216 to the pin. Water left, right and long, trap front left. I hit 6 iron, wedge and missed the putt. Doubled the next hole and missed the cut by one...

[Anthony Fowler]

I am perfectly fine with a 1 shotter (doesn't matter what par you call it) that you may have to lay up on given the conditions or the strengths of your particular game.

I have a fun personal story about laying up on a par 3.  All the New England college players play a 2 day tourney on two different courses (to accomodate ~250 players) at the Captains Course in Hyannis, MA.  This is the biggest tourney of the year for most of the schools present and it is typically played in horrible weather.  Additionally, they don't allow practice rounds the week of the tournament, so my Freshman year I had not seen any of the 36 holes we were to play.

Through 34 holes I was only a couple over par (don't remember exactly) which was pretty damn good with howling winds and freezing temperatures.  I knew I was close to if not in the lead.  I got to my 35th hole which was a long par 3 (maybe 230) into howling wind.  I tried to hammer a 3 wood into the wind and flared it right into the trees, lost the ball, and made a 6, losing the tourney by just a couple strokes.  The next year I came back, saw this hole for the second time, flared it into the trees again and made 4.  The third year I returned to this hole and the wind was howling just as it had the other two times.  I laid up with a 4 iron and pitched in for a 2.

There's nothing that looks daunting about this hole, but it is long and the green is hard to hit.  Why not lay up and take my chances with an easy pitch shot?

As an interesting correlary to this story, Dave Pelz had his players try an experiment in practice rounds.  Every time they wanted to hit a 2 iron, they hit a 6 iron instead.  Their scores did not decrease but improved in many cases.  The 6 iron never got them in trouble and those guys a pretty good with easy pitch shots from the fairway.  This also demonstrates that there are a lot of ways to lay up.  You don't have to play back to a full wedge.  If you have a shot you're not really comfortable with, hit a couple clubs less and pitch on from in front.