Ridgewood's Nickel and Dime

[Mike Policano]

At The Barclay's this hole played at 290 yards to a tiny elevated green.  Prior to the tournament, there was some discussion here as to whether the players would hit driver or go with a 5 iron and a wedge.  According to Golfweek, the results are in.

Players used the driver 83 times over the four days.  Only four of the 83 put their drives on the green.  However, the drivers averaged 3.65 while the 5 and wedges averaged 3.89.

[JESII]

Mike,

What do you make of those numbers?

24/100ths of a stroke is a big difference...were they able to get up and down pretty regularly if they missed one side or the other? (It looked to me like right was better).

Is the wedge shot still a very difficult shot? They did average under par on it, so it couldn't have been that difficult?

Is there a breakdown by day? Were most of those 83 on Thu and Fri?

[Phil McDade]

I didn't watch all days, but the day I did, the Mickelson-Harrington-Perry trio didn't seem to have too much trouble w/ up-and-downs after all used driver (admittedly, three pretty long and good players...Phil and Paddy had birdies, while Perry missed a somewhat makeable birdie putt). I clearly got the impression from the announcers, who seemed really taken by the hole, that the ability to get up and down depended on pin position. The day I watched, I believe the pin was left-center.

[Mike Policano]

It is much better to miss right than left.  Angel Cabrera missed left and lost his ball, made a six.  Couples said that missing right gave an easier pitch up against the left side, although it was a very small landing area.

The wedge in was an easy shot for the pros.  I saw at least 60 players go thru and only saw one wedge miss the green.  On the other hand, I only saw 8 birdies from the 5 and wedge guys.  I saw several birdies and an eagle from the drivers.

The players underread the break consistently even though many of the wedges were 8-12 feet from the hole.  The guys who used driver were often able to chip inside 5 feet.  Except for Phil on Saturday when he double hit his chip for a six.  

On Sunday however, Phil used driver and was three feet off the green in the front.  He chipped to four feet and made birdie.  Jesper drove the green.  He made his 2.5 foot eagle putt.

[Bill Brightly]

From what I saw, the best miss was in the front right bunker where the pros made many up and down birdies. I saw Phil lip out for eagle from there.

I am surprised that going for it produced slightly lower scores. There is  one factor that ticked me off: trampled down rough (TDR.)

Players missing way right (safer than missing left) often ended up in the TDR where the gallery walked. So rather than a 40 yard shot up the hill out of brutal rough, they hit fairly simple wedges where they could spin it a bit...

[Jerry Kluger]

Mike:  How does the hole play for a 10 handicap member - will he go for the green?  How did the hole play with respect to pace of play - if players waited for the green to clear in order to hit their tee shot did it cause a backup?

[Mike Policano]

For member play, about 1 in 200 members try to drive the green.  I have only seen my son consistently attempt it.  And only once did he land on the green on a fly.  He hit the front half of the green and stopped on the back half.

Because of the elevation, it is a serious carry.  Interestingly, I never noticed a backup.  It may have been because the Tour elected to alter the flow and make the players cross an intervening hole to get to the nickel and dime which took more time than usual.

[Bill Brightly]

Jerry,

You asked how the holes play for members, but let me answer as someone who gets to play this hole one or two times per year. I am a 3 and I always lay up. But the 70 yard shot I have left is one of the most unsettling shots of the day!

By the time I get to this hole I have probably already made a few bogies and I certainly don't want to bogie a 290 yard Par 4, right? And I get to the fairway and look at this tiny target:





There should be nothing hard about a 70 yard shot,  but when hitting it to a normal size green, you know you can live with an 8 yard pull or push. Not here...it is a classic "sphincter-tightener"!

[PThomas]

I think its a terrific golf hole

[JSlonis]

At The Barclay's this hole played at 290 yards to a tiny elevated green.  Prior to the tournament, there was some discussion here as to whether the players would hit driver or go with a 5 iron and a wedge.  According to Golfweek, the results are in.

Players used the driver 83 times over the four days.  Only four of the 83 put their drives on the green.  However, the drivers averaged 3.65 while the 5 and wedges averaged 3.89.

This just shows you how good the top level tour players are with their wedges and short games.  In my view, this particular area is what really separates the PGA Tour player from everyone else, including the Nationwide and Mini Tour guys.  From 100 yards and in, it's unbelievable how good they are.  The greensite at the Nickle and Dime is quite small and well guarded...it is definitely not easy. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I think the answer lies in the following.

For that green, it's easier to get closer to the hole, the closer you are to the putting surface, especially if you're on the upslopes leading to the green.

With the hole cut in the front or the back, it's a dicey approach from the fairway.

It's a much easier approach from the upslopes.

I believe that I predicted this.
Matt Ward felt that few would attempt to drive the green because there was no advantage, but, there is an advantage to being on the upslope and you can only get to the upslope by trying to drive the green.

[JESII]

Pat,

Less than 20% of the shots from the tee were drivers.

[Jerry Kluger]

The question might be: What is a good percentage of those going for the green versus those laying up, for a short par 4 to be considered a good risk/reward hole?  Would the ideal be 50/50 or would it be something else, say 80/20?

[JESII]

Jerry,

I think if you told all the players on the tee that it is .25 strokes easier if they go for the green, the number would rise from 83...

To answer your question, I think a wide scoring range is a better indicator than the ratio of either decision...the 5 rion wedge guys probably didn't have a very wide spectrum.

[AndrewB]

I think if you told all the players on the tee that it is .25 strokes easier if they go for the green, the number would rise from 83...

If that 83 number increased I would expect the .25 strokes easier to decrease too, particularly on this hole.  Some that probably shouldn't go for it -- because they can't realistically get there or get close enough to make the pitch easier than the shot from the fairway -- would go for it and likely not make birdie.

[Ronald Montesano]

Do we have numbers for driver versus layup on the shortie at TPC Boston from this past week's event?  Love those driveable two-shotters.

[Anthony Fowler]

This was a very fun hole to watch, but I suspected that those hitting driver were doing better on the hole.  I didn't see a lot of guys get close with their wedge shots.  I even saw a few miss the green.

There is a lurking variable here, however.  It is possible that players made lower scores with their drivers because the ones that hit driver were a very different group than the ones that laid up.  For instance, the ones that hit driver may have been feeling better about their swing, might feel more confident in their short game around the green, might hit it more consistently, etc.  What we would like to have is an experiment where the same players hit drivers and lay up and we can compare the scores they make.

Do we have numbers for driver versus layup on the shortie at TPC Boston from this past week's event?  Love those driveable two-shotters.

The 4th at TPC Boston is probably not a good one to ask this question because so few people actually laid up.  I am almost sure that the driver crowd did better, but that is not to say that Nick O'Hern would have done better if he had hit driver. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

Less than 20% of the shots from the tee were drivers.

That's one fifth of the entire field.

Others predicted that only a handful would attempt to drive the green.

83 competitors is far more than a handful, by a margin of about 78.

[JESII]

Pat,

1 in 5 seems a small number to me if it's true that pitch shots from the upslopes near the green are easier than a wedge from 100 yards.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,

1 in 5 seems a small number to me if it's true that pitch shots from the upslopes near the green are easier than a wedge from 100 yards.

JES II,

Have you played the hole ?

Prior to the tournament it was stated that only a handful, or about 5 attempts would be made.

83 attempts is an overwhelming number of attempts when the over/under was 5.

[JESII]

Whomever put the over/under at 5 was off their rocker...why can't I ever get a bet like that? Phil is good for 4, so you'd only need one other knucklehead to have a rip and you've got a push...two and it's a win.

Pat,

Based on your observations of it being easier to chip and putt than to wedge and putt, why would 80% of the attempts select the wedge and putt?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Whomever put the over/under at 5 was off their rocker...why can't I ever get a bet like that?


That's what I thought and stated.

Phil is good for 4, so you'd only need one other knucklehead to have a rip and you've got a push...two and it's a win.

Pat,

Based on your observations of it being easier to chip and putt than to wedge and putt, why would 80% of the attempts select the wedge and putt?

It's my limited experience that the pros play the percentages/optimal margins and that conventional wisdom, prior to the tournament, led them to take the conservative approach.

I would be very interested to see how they would play the hole if the tournament was held at Ridgewood next year.

[JESII]

I'd agree with all of that.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

I think the Barclay's put Ridgewood on a few radar maps, thus I wouldn't be surprised if they were awarded a tournament in the coming future.

[Ian_L]

One factor worth considering: maybe the people that go for the green are just better players, leading to better scores.  It might not be that players shoot higher because they lay up.  Maybe they lay up because they shoot higher.

I'm not saying it's true, just some food for thought.  A quarter of a stroke is a lot...

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