News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


CJ Carder

  • Karma: +0/-0
TPC Sawgrass (pics)
« on: September 03, 2008, 12:29:17 AM »
So I just returned from a wonderful, albeit hot and humid, weekend in Ponte Vedra Beach where I was very lucky to have an understanding wife allow me to play the TPC Sawgrass twice. 

General thoughts:
1.  I was surprised as how ample some of the driving areas were (#2,4,5,7,11,12,14,16), how narrow some of the others were (#6,10,15), and then particularly how the remaining driving holes were sort of in the middle but obviously rewarded a particular shot (#9 for example where the reward for length was up the left side but left the player with a poor angle into the green).

2.  I really enjoyed the second-shot nature of the course and think it might be the most demanding second-shot golf course I've had the opportunity to play.  With the sole exception of maybe a few holes at Pebble (#8 - 10) and a few others at Pinehurst #2 to a lesser extent, I can't remember a round where I've felt as pressured to hit it in the correct spot on the green as I did at Sawgrass.  Those are some fantastic green complexes.

3.  That said, missing the greens or missing the correct portion of the green didn't exactly mean death either, particularly if you have some creativity to your short game.  Bump & run, flop shots, and creative use of slopes and "sideboards, Johnny Miller" all give the player a chance to save par if he misses on the approach. 

4.  #18 - what a hole.  While the hole is very much about driving it in the fairway, I can't help but think that it wouldn't be quite so difficult if the approach wasn't as long.  I hit 3-wood off the tee on day 1 and had 183 left.  With a front left pin, I thought perhaps running it up would be helpful, but that green is definitely not any fun if you don't have some reasonable control over your golf ball.  2nd day I hit driver and had a more reasonable 168 in - though this time, they'd tucked the pin behind the bunkers on the right and just at the top of a ridge.  Again, not too easy.  Still, both days I had really no problem keeping the ball in the fairway - it was the 2nd shot that made the hole so difficult. 

Here are some of the better pics that I touched up a bit before uploading them to the net...

Clubhouse - whoa!


Approach to #4...


Approach to #5...


Tee shot on #8...


Tee shot on #10...


View from behind the green on #11...


Couple shots of #17...






Tee shot on #18...


Looking back down #18 from behind the green...




Finally, just cause I thought this was cool and am always amazed at how absurd some of the shots are made by professionals, here's a few pictures from the spot where Davis Love III hit his 190+ yard 6-iron to make eagle at #16 during his final round 64 en route to the 2003 Players Championship (note the right edge of the green that can be seen ever-so-slightly protruding up above ground level in the middle of the picture)...






henrye

Re: TPC Sawgrass (pics)
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2008, 08:40:46 AM »
Good pics CJ.  I haven't been there in 5 years (prior to the reno), but from what I remember, the course looks identical.  Can anyone comment on the before & after.  Obviously the clubhouse has changed, but what about the course both visually & from a playability standpoint?

CJ Carder

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TPC Sawgrass (pics)
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2008, 09:31:38 AM »
Can anyone comment on the before & after.  Obviously the clubhouse has changed, but what about the course both visually & from a playability standpoint?

I can't really comment on the before very much since this was my first time there.  From what our forecaddie said though, 17 green is not as severe as it was before the renovation.  On Saturday, one of the guys in our group wanted to re-create Tiger's "better than most" putt from 2001 and it wasn't really possible since I think some of the contours had been smoothed out a bit.  I was also surprised on 17 that it is indeed possible to putt from one extreme side of the green to the other.  For our 2nd round, the flag was way down front and one guy in my group hit his tee shot way towards the typical Sunday pin location (far right).  He two putted for par, though he did have to make about a 10 footer coming back.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TPC Sawgrass (pics)
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2008, 10:23:37 AM »
Terrific pictures!  Thanks.

What do you see as the strengths and weaknesses of the course?

What distance did you play from?

How playable do you think the course is for the 18 handicapper?

Was the course more difficult or more easy than you expected?  How did you score compared to how you would score on your normal course with the same game? 

How tough was the rough at this time of year?

Did you ask about that tree on 6 (I believe) tee?

CJ Carder

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TPC Sawgrass (pics)
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2008, 11:43:52 AM »
What do you see as the strengths and weaknesses of the course?

Strengths are definitely the precision nature of the approaches.  There's also a sneaky bit of strategy involved in some of those holes, it's certainly not "bomb and gouge" on every hole.  I also think they've done a real nice job of offering the player some options around the greens, shaving down some of the banks, creating some roll-off areas, etc.  Adding on to that, and sort of moving in to my first weakness, I really like some of the little gumdrop mounding around a couple of the greens.  This goes along well with the exacting nature of the approach shots, but also contributes a little to the over bunkering.  Still, it's an extra thing for the player to think about when he's trying to blast something up near the green.  Find yourself in those mounds and it is certainly not a guaranteed up and down.

Weaknesses, I think there's a bit of "over bunkering" going on.  Take my picture of the 5th hole - is all that really necessary?  And related to the bunkering, the usage of "waste areas" to border some hazards is a little repetitive.  I really like it on #11, but Dye did basically the exact same thing on #1, #2, #4, #5, #7, #10, and #15.  Finally, and I suppose I'm nitpicking here, it really doesn't look THAT much like your typical Florida course.  That much is good, but there are quite a few areas where it doesn't have that natural feel - i.e. they moved a ton of dirt.  I happen to really like how it turned out, but it also has the feel of "the architect is forcing me to do this" rather than "hey, it's the lay of the land, deal with it."

Quote
What distance did you play from?

Blue tees, which I guess is 6600+.  Though there was definitely an added dimension of difficulty as they had the pins set in the PLAYERS locations since they were also hosting the AJGA PLAYERS Invitational this weekend.

Quote
How playable do you think the course is for the 18 handicapper?

Eh, I'd say maybe 50/50.  Depends on the type of 18 handicapper.  Generalizing, there's going to be some hazards left and right that'll catch a lot of balls, but there aren't a lot of forced carries that'll mess anybody up.  It's a tough course, no doubt, but there's a lot of visual distractions that will make it less playable for the 18 handicapper I think.

Quote
Was the course more difficult or more easy than you expected?  How did you score compared to how you would score on your normal course with the same game? 

Actually, the course was easier than I expected, but I was disappointed with my scores both days.  I wasn't completely on my game, but I'd say that over the course of the round, despite my perception of being easier than I expected, it was at least 2-3 shots harder than what I'm used to with that same game.  And most of those added shots came from the 5-8 stretch that just completely screwed me both days.   :)

Quote
How tough was the rough at this time of year?

Not.  A little wirey, but nothing that a 10 rounds per year player couldn't handle.  Not on the topic of rough, but the course in general was in excellent shape despite Faye dumping about 20 inches of rain on the area over the past 2 weeks.  The whole underground air system that they installed during the renovation works wonders.  Greens were firm, but receptive, and on the few chances I had to run the ball up to a green, I got more than enough rollout.

Quote
Did you ask about that tree on 6 (I believe) tee?

Yup, still there too.   :)  No one really seems to have an answer though, so it might remain one of the great mysteries.  I honestly can't think of a good, non-environmental reason why it's still there.  It would definitely qualify as one of those visual hazards that would mess with an 18 handicapper, but it's so far back that really only the pros are playing from those tees.  I guess it could be considered a method of forcing the players to hit something low off that tee, but that seems a bit contrived and doesn't really even mesh with how the rest of the hole plays.  I'm grasping at straws, but maybe a lower shot off that tee brings those left bunkers more into play rather than just bombing straight over them?  But even then, the green doesn't really reward anyone trying to carry those.  So I guess we'll still have to be at a loss for words on that one.   :)

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TPC Sawgrass (pics)
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2008, 12:00:14 PM »

Quote
Was the course more difficult or more easy than you expected?  How did you score compared to how you would score on your normal course with the same game? 

Actually, the course was easier than I expected, but I was disappointed with my scores both days.  I wasn't completely on my game, but I'd say that over the course of the round, despite my perception of being easier than I expected, it was at least 2-3 shots harder than what I'm used to with that same game.  And most of those added shots came from the 5-8 stretch that just completely screwed me both days.   :)


Thanks for all of the responses.

I had exactly the same reaction on the difficulty issue.  The course seemed much more playable than I expected although I wound up shooting a bit worse than I normally would have shot. 

I think a good design gives the player the hope of success and TPC Sawgrass is a terrific example of a course that gives that hope while still being able to challenge the best players in the world.

Cabell Ackerly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TPC Sawgrass (pics)
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2008, 04:27:52 PM »
CJ - Unless you really bomb the ball, I suspect that 18 was not playing into the wind. Both the drive and approach are pretty terrifying when played into the wind.

Regarding the conditions, keep in mind that you were playing on bermuda grass, whereas the whole course is over-seeded with rye in the winter and for the players championship. The rye is MUCH thicker than the bermuda. Some of the recovery shots that seem reasonable out of the wiry bermuda are close to impossible from the rye.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TPC Sawgrass (pics)
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2008, 04:50:56 PM »
CJ - Unless you really bomb the ball, I suspect that 18 was not playing into the wind. Both the drive and approach are pretty terrifying when played into the wind.

Regarding the conditions, keep in mind that you were playing on bermuda grass, whereas the whole course is over-seeded with rye in the winter and for the players championship. The rye is MUCH thicker than the bermuda. Some of the recovery shots that seem reasonable out of the wiry bermuda are close to impossible from the rye.


I thought they quit overseeding with the recent date change.

Cabell Ackerly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TPC Sawgrass (pics)
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2008, 05:03:33 PM »
It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, but I'd be shocked if they stopped.

Andy Troeger

Re: TPC Sawgrass (pics)
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2008, 06:48:18 PM »
CJ,
Thanks for posting the photos. I found the course to be very challenging, but not nearly as penal as most comments would lead you to believe. The last two holes certainly can mean death to golf balls, but the first 16 give you enough room to play comfortably for the most part with few forced carries. Certainly, very poor shots tend to lead to very poor results, but that can be said at many fine courses. Mediocre shots will lead to challenging recoveries and/or lousy scores, but I found the course to be very enjoyable.

An 18 hcp who keeps the ball relatively in play could do fine at TPC. Anyone who really sprays the ball, regardless of handicap, will have a long day. I played very poorly and shot about 90, but it was generally self inflicted!

Matt_Cohn

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TPC Sawgrass (pics)
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2008, 07:26:24 PM »
It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, but I'd be shocked if they stopped.

They stopped. That was indeed part of the move to May.

CJ Carder

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TPC Sawgrass (pics)
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2008, 07:31:12 PM »
It wouldn't be the first time I've been wrong, but I'd be shocked if they stopped.

Quote from: The TPC Website
As we look to the future at TPC Sawgrass, THE PLAYERS Stadium Course is committed to consistently providing optimum playing conditions. Early in the year, THE PLAYERS Stadium will have a dormant look, yet provide firm and fast conditions. When Spring arrives and THE PLAYERS Championship nears, the course will be ready for the best in the world. After THE PLAYERS and into the summer months, conditions remain constant. Aerification occurs on June 8 - June 11, 2009 and again on July 27 & 28, 2009, each resulting in a few weeks of disturbed playing surfaces for a minimal number of weeks. THE PLAYERS Stadium has discontinued the overseeding process and you can expect conditions to remain excellent throughout the end of the year.

Looks like they stopped.

George_Bahto

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: TPC Sawgrass (pics)
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2008, 08:12:33 PM »
CJC: thanks for posting your pictures of one of my favorite courses on earth.

If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back