[wsmorrison]

Mark,

I disagree with you.  Or should I say, photographs disagree with you.  I have early photographs of all the courses I listed and the sand is flashed to the top in many cases and flashed high up the faces on many more.  Flynn flashed sand up the faces on most of his bunkers, though he would vary the amount of grass showing.  I do not use the definition of flashed sand as you do, with sand all the way to the toplines of bunkers.  Regardless, a majority of Flynn bunkers had sand flashed well up the faces, with quite a few all the way to the top.  It is a fact.  Pictures do not lie.

As for Flynn's design principals not allowing a different design style for resort play, I think you are wrong there as well.  First of all, I wouldn't call it "dumbed down."  Secondly, like any architect, there was some direction from the resort and owners.  Flynn designed other public golf courses that were rather benign in comparison to other designs and he designed 2 courses at Boca Raton that were among the best in America at the time.  They had wide fairways but severe shot demands if you strayed off the ideal line of attack or into the hazards.  I'd say he would design for the course requested.  If given the freedom, he would lean towards championship designs.  The primary reason for the bunker depths at Cascades is likely the rocky soil.  But I wouldn't discount some component being what the client wanted and was willing to pay for.  That was an expensive and vast construction project.  It was not nearly as laid on the ground as you originally believed.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom P,
I’ll ask Forrest about the tapes as he got them from Jack Sr.'s son before he passed away.  Your definition of Merion’s bunkers is consistent with my understanding.  That is why I describe the look of the original ones as “cresting waves” vs. “crashing waves”. 

Mike,
I am not sure what you are driving at but I would tend to agree though I’d have to see the situation to make a better assessment.  At the end of the day, however, it is still going to be a judgment call. 

Wayne,
How many of his 52 courses had bunkers with sand flashed all the way to the top – One third?  One quarter?  Also, many of the ones you mentioned were seaside designs and I have no real disagreement there.  I’ve looked at countless photographs as well and I would be quite surprised if you feel “most” of his bunkers looked like those presently at Winged Foot.  Would you describe the bunkers at Lancaster as properly flashed?  If so, then we are not in that big of a disagreement. 

As far as “resort” courses, maybe he did more than one would think to please his client.  If so, it still doesn’t really explain the pedestrian looking nature of bunkers such as this one below.  I would have guessed rock was the culprit but he still could have done better don't you think?  Again the shallowness surprised me.  I’m sure this was not the only site where he encountered rock. 

[Lester George]

Wayne,

The 1937 aerial I sent you of CCV clearly makes your case doesn't it? 

Lester

[Bradley Anderson]

Wayne,

Do you know if Flynn ever made departures from his drawings? This is an important question because a set of these drawings would be invaluable for true restoration, but only if it could be determined for certain that Flynn never made departures from what was drawn.

Now my next question is if we know of any other architects of this era whose drawings had this much detail to them. I think Ross' drawings are very close. I am especially interested in seeing anything that was drawn by Bendelow.

[Bradley Anderson]

Mark:

With the kind of sand flashed bunkering of the original Merion and Flynn style it was sand swept right to the top and up to an almost imperceptible grassline on top. There was basically no rollover of the top grassline at all. At least that's the way they were constructed and actually remained for some time at Merion (and other of Flynn's courses). The deal was the top grass line was allowed to sort of grow down in fingers and lacyness and such through the use of multiple grass types. Flynn was very much the grass expert, he was fascinated by all kinds of grass strains and his and Toomey's farm in Montgomery County (where some of their crew lived) was his own personal grass experimentation laboratory.

That lacy or fingery top grass line that was the look of the Merion White Faces into the 1930s took time to develop and the method of maintaining those top grass lines was pretty specific too. They were only cut with a scythe back then and that is something of a specialized art or was at Merion.

Later under Richie Valentine, the son of long term Merion Super Joe Valentine, they got into cutting those top lines with mechanized equipment and that lacy, fingery top line was basically lost and the top grass line got to look a bit cleaner and less prominent (some today call that old lacy, fingery top grassline look, elegant).

That somewhat cleaner and more clipped look (compared to the old lacy, fingery topline look) is the look the club maintained until the bunker project that began in the last decade where eventually they settled on a somewhat turfed and grass rolled over look that appears much heavier and grassier on top than anything Merion ever had before. Plus the grass is maintain much much longer top than it ever was previously in Merion's history. The latest and present look also minimizes the famous Merion sand flashed up look to some extent.

I heard somewhere many years ago this incredible story about how those bunkers were postioned with the aide of laying large white sheets out on the ground to see how they looked visually from the hitting areas before committing to building them. Is that true? And when would this have happened?

I used to care for a 1965 RB Harris course, and I kept a 2 inch lip on all the bunkers. Then one day I put a fresh edge on them and pulled the sand right to the very top so that if you stood below the bunker from any significant distance, the sand flashed strait up to the horizon, and with no visible grass line. I ended up staying with that look - giant friggin saucers big enough to loose an Aldi store in with sand right up to the skyline. Now that's a good look eh? No wonder my eyes think Raynor's lines look so natural. 

[TEPaul]

"I heard somewhere many years ago this incredible story about how those bunkers were postioned with the aide of laying large white sheets out on the ground to see how they looked visually from the hitting areas before committing to building them. Is that true? And when would this have happened?"


Bradley:

We've never been able to specifically document that but it probably was true (after all who would just think up something like that). It makes a lot of sense as those guys back then apparently did a whole lot more with visulization, actual shot testing and things like that compared to most today. And don't forget, Merion was very much the evolutionary project and guys like Wilson appears to have been over there for one reason or another pretty much all the time.

That method of sheets may've begun as early as 1912 or 1913 or so.

[wsmorrison]

Bradley,

We don't have all his finalized plans.  Of the ones we do have, they are remarkably similar to the way the courses were built.  In fact, overlaying the drawings on old aerials indicates not only the accuracy of the drawings but that they were accurately followed.  We were able to provide Cascades a clear picture of what was planned, what was built and what changed over time.  We used this same process to determine where greens and fairways shrunk at Shinnecock Hills.  The work that Craig, Tom and I did allowed the club to determine the extent of green expansion and fairway expansion in some cases.  It is a process that can only be done because the drawings are so accurate.  I'll try to post some examples for you.

[Mark_Fine]

In my opinion, Flynn followed his drawings probably as closely as anyone but he did make departures.  We've used Flynn drawings that Wayne provided us as well as from the clubs themselves, from Mike Hurdzan (who just scanned some for us) and from other findings.  They are usually close to what was built but as Wayne will tell, Flynn often did many iterations (sometimes it is hard to tell how many for sure).  To me, there is still no substitute for use of drawings, old aerials to confirm what was built, old photos, and on the ground study.  Put that all together and you should be close to knowing what was done. 

Pocono Manor is one example where I know Flynn didn't follow them precisely 100%.  They are close but not spot on.  A good test case might be the Cascades and Wayne would know for sure.  Did Flynn really know how deep the rock was throughout that site before he started construction?  I presume he had a good idea but he must have had to make field changes hole by hole if he hit rock.  If he called for a bunker that was three feet deep on his drawings and he hit rock at a foot and a half, what did he do?  Sounds like he left the bunker at a foot and a half which would have been a departure from his drawings.  Not sure how it could be any other way.  As built drawings of course are a completely different animal. 

[Mark_Fine]

Tom P,
Following up on your question about that tape; Forrest believes the Zimmers has a copy.  I do know John Fitzgerald at Oakmont, however, we're not sure if he has a copy.
Mark

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