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Mike_Cirba

I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year (for the 1st time)
« on: August 31, 2008, 11:54:15 PM »
I'm going to try to draw this hole in letters.   I'll call it the "Scissors".

                                                 DDD
                                                  G BB  DD
                                                    GGGG  DDDD
                                        BBBBBBBBB GGGG      DDDD
                                            BBBBBBBBBBB
                                                BBBBBBBBBBBBB


                                                                    BBBB
                                                         BBBBBB
                                            BBBBBB 
                                   BBBB
                                B

TTT             


Where T is the Tee, 

B is immense, rugged bunkering running at a direct opposite diagonal along the fairway to the diagonal of the green, and then running in front of green at the same angle as the green.

The empty space between the B's is fairway.   THere is also fairway "under" the B's.

The G's is the green.

The D is death beyond.

The hole is 305 yards from the tips.   The green is perhaps 40 feet from front to back and angled at the diagonal in the crude drawing.   The hole plays slightly downhill and the green and flagstick are quite visible from the tee, although a considerable number of the bunkers are not.

I have never seen a hole quite like it, and I'm going to go see if I can't find an aerial.   I'm doubtful, because the course just opened in recent months, but I'll see what I can come up with.

« Last Edit: September 02, 2008, 08:56:53 AM by MikeCirba »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2008, 12:16:09 AM »
No luck on google, mapquest, or google earth.

The architect's website does have a drawing, but it was built with much more sand going back towards the tee on an angle than is evident in the picture.   

It's the 4th hole.   I do wish I had something better because this hardly does it justice.   I've never seen anything quite like it.

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Scott Sander

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2008, 07:09:21 AM »
I'd love to see it with all the bunkering!

By description, it's very similar in length, direction and elevation change to a hole from Trophy Club in Lebanon, Indiana.  The bunkering sounds FAR more dramatic in your example.

How does the green play?  The one below has a false front, but then it's flat or slightly front-to-back at about a 45 degree angle from the tee, making it functionally more oblong (if that makes any sense) in the same direction as yours and extremely hard to hold if you "go for it".
 
There's no "scissors" on this one.  The primary defense/disincentive to heroics is the bunkering along the left (steep and on a severe sidehill) and mounding/deep rough through the fairway.

http://maps.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&FORM=LMLTCC&cp=40.095186~-86.515607&style=h&lvl=17&tilt=-90&dir=0&alt=-1000&phx=0&phy=0&phscl=1&encType=1
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 07:16:50 AM by Scott Sander »
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Mike_Cirba

Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2008, 07:14:50 AM »
Scott,

I really found myself wishing I'd brought my camera.

The green in question is a very shallow, but fairly wide shelf as approached from the tee, with the bunkering going right to the front of about 80% of the green, and one "saving" pot bunker behind.   Most anything going long, however, would cascade down into death in the form of wooded reeds.

The best strategic play I saw was to try and drive almost beyond the green, but to the right of it...down into the narrowing neck of fairway, and then shooting back up along the length of the diagonal.   Anything...even a pitch...coming from the direct route invokes some of the same fear and strategy as say the 10th at Riviera, only with some different twists.
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Scott Sander

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2008, 07:21:37 AM »
Quote from: MikeCirba on September 01, 2008, 07:14:50 AM


The best strategic play I saw was to try and drive almost beyond the green, but to the right of it...down into the narrowing neck of fairway...

I really enjoy a shot like that - something that turns convention on its head a bit - makes you think "Am I really about to hit the ball past the eventual target on purpose?!? 
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Mike_Cirba

Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2008, 07:35:00 AM »
Scott,

Yes, that was pretty much my thought as well.   I've never seen a hole quite like it and was very impressed.
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2008, 07:42:26 AM »
I will take my camera when I take the trip to play there in a few weeks.  How are the conditions for this new course?
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Dan Herrmann

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2008, 07:56:30 AM »
The price is right too..  Who's the architect?
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Bruce Leland

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2008, 07:58:14 AM »
In an article about the grand opening of the course it stated that the GCA works for McDonald & Sons.  Any idea who the architect is?  I know McD & Sons
is a very apt builder but was unaware that they employed an architect on staff.
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"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Cliff Hamm

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2008, 08:00:41 AM »
Mike..Overall impressions of the course?
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Tom_Doak

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2008, 09:40:34 AM »
The architect is Joel Weiman, who was a  Cornell student back in the mid-90's.  He has worked as McDonald & Sons' "in-house" architect for several years, doing a lot of renovation work and a handful of original 18-hole courses in PA and MD.  It took me a bit of digging on their web site to confirm this -- Chip M. wants to keep him in place, and it was interesting that none of the many housing developers building next to the course saw fit to mention who the designer was.
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Bruce Leland

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2008, 10:48:02 AM »
Quote from: Tom_Doak on September 01, 2008, 09:40:34 AM
The architect is Joel Weiman, who was a  Cornell student back in the mid-90's.  He has worked as McDonald & Sons' "in-house" architect for several years, doing a lot of renovation work and a handful of original 18-hole courses in PA and MD.  It took me a bit of digging on their web site to confirm this -- Chip M. wants to keep him in place, and it was interesting that none of the many housing developers building next to the course saw fit to mention who the designer was.
Thanks Tom.  I did a little digging on the site and had the same thought....the McDonald logo is prominent, however. 
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"The mystique of Muirfield lingers on. So does the memory of Carnoustie's foreboding. So does the scenic wonder of Turnberry and the haunting incredibility of Prestwick, and the pleasant deception of Troon. But put them altogether and St. Andrew's can play their low ball for atmosphere." Dan Jenkins

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2008, 11:01:07 AM »
I played a course a couple of years ago in Denton, Md.
by JW called Upland Meadows. A fine layout with some
out of the ordinary holes. Good enough for me to play it
again if in the neighborhood.

Mike,
Looks like a SaharaHogback fairway
coupled to a CapeRedan green. Great Stuff!!!!!  ;)
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"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Mike_Cirba

Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2008, 11:55:31 AM »
Yes, as Tom mentioned, the architect is Joel Weiman and the course is very thoughtful and strategic with quite a number of intriguing and unusual holes.

As a housing development course, it has some of the limitations associated with a spread-out routing, but it was also great fun.

redanman asked me to check this link...hopefully this will work.   The tee would be in the top right of the pic;

http://maps.live.com/#JnE9eXAuT2Rlc3NhJTJjK0RFJTdlc3N0LjAlN2VwZy4xJmJiPTUyLjU4OTcwMDc2ODcxNzglN2UtNDkuMTMwODU5Mzc1JTdlMjQuMDQ2NDYzOTk5NjY2NiU3ZS0xMDMuMjcxNDg0Mzc1

oops...that doesn't do it...sorry

I've played Uplands and also have heard good things about a course Weiman built near Ocean City, MD called Riddle Farm that I believe Rob Waldron is a big fan of.

Mr. Kennedy,

I'm thinking it's a biarritz.  ;)
« Last Edit: September 01, 2008, 11:59:14 AM by MikeCirba »
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Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2008, 03:21:55 PM »
This was originally a Gil Hanse project. I don't know why he was replaced.



Odessa on track to open this summer

Public course's grow-in stage almost complete

By BRAD MYERS
The News Journal

Joe Gulotti is certainly doing more than just sitting back and watching the grass grow, but the heavy lifting is finished at Odessa National Golf Club.

Gulotti is a golf course superintendent for Evergreen Turf, the company handling the course's grow-in stage. He said the public course, located off Fieldsboro Road about two miles south of Odessa as part of the Odessa National housing development, is on track to open this summer.

"We're pushing for a July 4 weekend opening, but sometime between July 4 and Labor Day is probably more realistic," Gulotti said Wednesday. "All of the turf is in -- the greens, fairways and tees. The rough is a little spotty, but it's coming along. We just basically have some touch-up work to do."

The course was designed by architect Joel Weiman and built by McDonald & Sons, a Jessup, Md.-based golf course construction firm that has done renovation work on many of the nation's most prestigious courses, including Augusta National, Congressional, Merion, Oakmont and Winged Foot.

Gulotti also worked through the grow-in stage at The Club at Patriots Glen in Elkton, Md., in 2001 and at Glen Riddle Golf Club, another McDonald & Sons project in Berlin, Md., in 2006-07. He said the Odessa National course will be unique to the area.

"It's an excellent layout. It's very different from the other courses here in the Middletown area," Gulotti said. "It's undulating, has some nice changes in elevation, and it's got a lot of trees. We've got an eagle's nest on the 15th hole right now. There is a lot of wildlife out here.
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2008, 03:26:05 PM »
Here's the review and hole by hole description from the Wilmington News Journal:

http://delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080814/SPORTS11/808140383
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Bill_McBride

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2008, 08:17:48 PM »
#12 also looks like an interesting short par 4 with the center bunker shoving safe tee shots out to the right.  Is the topography very different from #4?

The best short par 4 I've played in years continues to #17 at NGLA.  The shot required to get a look at the green and the penalty for failure to hit a long enough drive make that such a great hole.
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Jeff Doerr

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2008, 08:37:58 PM »
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Jeff Doerr

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #18 on: September 01, 2008, 08:40:01 PM »
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"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
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Jeff Doerr

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #19 on: September 01, 2008, 08:50:44 PM »
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"And so," (concluded the Oldest Member), "you see that golf can be of
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Mike Nuzzo

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #20 on: September 01, 2008, 10:06:56 PM »
That is a nice illustration.

The fairway and green shapes look inspired by Kelly Blake Moran's shapes.
And the hole Mike has been describing looks similar to Baxter Spann's 14th at Black Mesa - or at least his initial sketch.

Not exact - just what looking at the plan reminded me of.

cheers
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Bill_McBride

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #21 on: September 01, 2008, 11:03:30 PM »
Quote from: Mike Nuzzo on September 01, 2008, 10:06:56 PM
That is a nice illustration.

The fairway and green shapes look inspired by Kelly Blake Moran's shapes.
And the hole Mike has been describing looks similar to Baxter Spann's 14th at Black Mesa - or at least his initial sketch.

Not exact - just what looking at the plan reminded me of.

cheers


Mike, I played a couple of rounds at Black Mesa in May, and had a birdie and par at #14.  They are cutting the rough pretty short just left and short of the green.  Both times I tried to hit driver left of the 'knob' and both times tugged my tee shot into that no man's land short and left.  Both times I missed the gnarly bunkers but got great lies in the short rough.  Hit one LW to 3' and one 10', made the short one, missed the longer one.  I think that hole is much better if that's 3" fescue so those nice sitting up lies aren't possible.  Is there a short par 4 with more playing options?  Good call.
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Mike_Cirba

Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2008, 08:56:26 AM »
There were a number of very interesting and unusually creative holes at Odessa.

The 12th was indeed a good one that also featured a reverse cant to the fairway dogleg.   However, the following hole, which is again not well-served by the drawing, featured a minefield of bunkers down the right side that someone would have to try to carry to get in position for the second to a very cool, lay-of-the-land, narrow fallaway green with a blind bunker right of it.   Failing that, it seemed to me that the only other reasonable play was to hit it about 200 yards to the top of the hill at the 150 post, and then play the downhill second from there.    It's certain to be a controversial hole, as is the 16th.

By the way...I've retitled my post, because I should say that it's the best short par four I've seen this year for The First Time!.

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Jerry Kluger

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year (for the 1st time)
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2008, 09:13:45 AM »
There was a contest in one of the golf publications for readers to design a hole on a course being built by Arthur Hills - it reminds me of the winning entry.
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Chris Avore

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Re: I've just seen the best short par four I've seen all year (for the 1st time)
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2008, 09:21:58 AM »
When I first saw your keystroke sketch and the map, it reminded me of the 15th hole at Pine Barrens/World Woods.  Looks a bit different after I found the PB map, but still similar...

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my photos from a few courses around the world:
http://flickr.com/photos/erova/collections/72157600394512195/
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