You and your golf swing

[Steve Lang]

   I've been playing since i was 9, i now have 47 years experience; I'd say get off the darn computer, ride a bike, go swimming, cut some wood, mow the lawn, play basket ball, have sex, or whatever gets you tired out and then go play.. and don't keep score, just aim at the pins..

oh yeh, and see a professional

[Will E]

John-

To call Stack and Tilt "complete garbage" is pretty strong.
Can you tell us of your experience with Mike and Andy?
It doesn't appear to be as positive as Mike Weir's.
How are your students playing this week in Boston?
How much knowledge do you have of Homer Kelly's work?
Why is Jim Hardy's one plane method superior to the Stack and Tilt pattern?

-my feeling is that no "method" works, that for success to occur the student must work

 "awareness is curative"

[Dan_Callahan]

I've read the books on Stack and Tilt. You know what Stack and Tile used to be called? About 5 years ago, it was called a reverse pivot. IT STILL IS!  
--Dan-this is not a personal attack on you, please don't take it that way.


Not to mention, if you have any back problems at all, Stack and Tilt will worsen them because of the even-more-odd movements you have to make in order for the swing to work.

I didn't take it that way. It does seem to defy logic . . . but then you try it and it works. I do disagree on your labeling it a reverse pivot. A reverse pivot, to my understanding, results in your weight ending up on your right side (for a righty) and the end of your swing. Duval used to do this, and Mickelson still does at times.

I don't know why you think the stack and tilt requires you to be an athlete to execute. In some ways, it takes athleticism out of the swing. Instead, it forces you to rotate your swing around a stationary axis. That is the part that makes lots of sense to me. What I didn't anticipate was an increase in distance. But I think that is owed to higher swing speed generated from a solid axis as opposed to a center that is shifting back and through the ball.

Rick, the key for me is to keep my weight from shifting off the ball (to the right) on the back swing. I used to have very quiet legs. Now, I make sure to bend my left knee as I take the club back. I try to keep my head positioned over the ball. I also used to really extend my arms . . . now I keep me elbows somewhat tucked to my side (although not nearly as tight as Bads does). Finally, on the downswing I straighten my left leg . . . similar to what the slow motion shows Tiger does that likely created his knee issues. I don't pop it like he did, but that straightening is a great way to get the feel of starting your downswing with your lower body. It also helps you maintain your posture. Wen I was playing bad, I used to really fire my hips, they would open too quickly and I would end up with the club behind me. With the stack and tilt, I feel like it is all one smooth rotation, with all the parts working together. It feels effortless and very balanced. Which isn't to say I don't still have issues. It isn't natural for me yet, so I tend to lose parts from time to time and have to remind myself of what I am trying to do.

Go to YouTube and you'll find videos of Bads, Weir, Axley, etc. There are also some vids of Tiger that make it pretty clear that some of his Hank Haney "One Plane" swing incorporate some stack and tilt elements.

Most interesting to me is how there seem to be variations of this across many golfers. I think it comes down to staying on top of the ball and striking the ball with a descending blow, and whichever pieces of this swing help you do that will be what you adopt.

Anyway, like I said I'm no expert on this and I've never taking the full blown stack and tilt workshop. But it certainly is working for me and is something I am likely to stick with.

[Joe Bausch]

I've read the books on Stack and Tilt. You know what Stack and Tile used to be called? About 5 years ago, it was called a reverse pivot. IT STILL IS!  
--Dan-this is not a personal attack on you, please don't take it that way.


Not to mention, if you have any back problems at all, Stack and Tilt will worsen them because of the even-more-odd movements you have to make in order for the swing to work.

I didn't take it that way. It does seem to defy logic . . . but then you try it and it works. I do disagree on your labeling it a reverse pivot. A reverse pivot, to my understanding, results in your weight ending up on your right side (for a righty) and the end of your swing. Duval used to do this, and Mickelson still does at times.

I don't know why you think the stack and tilt requires you to be an athlete to execute. In some ways, it takes athleticism out of the swing. Instead, it forces you to rotate your swing around a stationary axis. That is the part that makes lots of sense to me. What I didn't anticipate was an increase in distance. But I think that is owed to higher swing speed generated from a solid axis as opposed to a center that is shifting back and through the ball.

Rick, the key for me is to keep my weight from shifting off the ball (to the right) on the back swing. I used to have very quiet legs. Now, I make sure to bend my left knee as I take the club back. I try to keep my head positioned over the ball. I also used to really extend my arms . . . now I keep me elbows somewhat tucked to my side (although not nearly as tight as Bads does). Finally, on the downswing I straighten my left leg . . . similar to what the slow motion shows Tiger does that likely created his knee issues. I don't pop it like he did, but that straightening is a great way to get the feel of starting your downswing with your lower body. It also helps you maintain your posture. Wen I was playing bad, I used to really fire my hips, they would open too quickly and I would end up with the club behind me. With the stack and tilt, I feel like it is all one smooth rotation, with all the parts working together. It feels effortless and very balanced. Which isn't to say I don't still have issues. It isn't natural for me yet, so I tend to lose parts from time to time and have to remind myself of what I am trying to do.

Go to YouTube and you'll find videos of Bads, Weir, Axley, etc. There are also some vids of Tiger that make it pretty clear that some of his Hank Haney "One Plane" swing incorporate some stack and tilt elements.

Most interesting to me is how there seem to be variations of this across many golfers. I think it comes down to staying on top of the ball and striking the ball with a descending blow, and whichever pieces of this swing help you do that will be what you adopt.

Anyway, like I said I'm no expert on this and I've never taking the full blown stack and tilt workshop. But it certainly is working for me and is something I am likely to stick with.

I would encourage anyone with an interest in the mechanics of the golf swing (and John in particular,    ) to get someone to lend them just discs 1 and 2 of the 4 volume series of Stack & Tilt.  I had read about the method in that Golf Digest article over one year ago and a pro I know in the Poconos starting to sell me on it.  But the method is more complicated than they presented in Golf Digest, and the first two DVD's are wonderful.  Not just for understanding Plummer and Bennett's method, but for understanding many of the other ways to swing a club.  They compare and contrast various methods beautifully.

[John Moore II]

Dan, and all--let me rephrase. I think to execute the Stack and Tilt move exactly as shown, you need to be an athlete. I have seen the videos of ST swingers.
Lets break it down-The "Stack" part of the swing come from the take-away where you 'stack' the weight on the left leg (for a right-handed golfer).  The "Tilt" part of the swing come from the fact that you wind up tilting back and moving the weight to the right foot (at least in all the models I have seen. Wier made this move at the Mercedes this year).  Those two moves are the very definition of a reverse pivot. Weight on the left side at the top and the right side at impact. So at this point, at impact, you have your back tilted backwards and your weight on your right foot. You have to do something to get back to your left side so that you do not, literally, fall down.

When Wier was shown on the range at the Mercedes this year, he had a massive arch in his back when he was swinging, especially so when he hit his driver. Thats why I say it will give you back problems.

NOW, I do think that if you can manage to keep the weight on the left side (Even though I had a PGA Master Professional Instructor tell me that you basically can't make a golf swing around a stationary pivot point as long as you swing with your feet apart) THROUGH THE WHOLE SWING and never let the weight get back onto your right side, its a good move. But from what I have seen, that is not a Stack and Tilt move, its more a Mac O'Grady move, and he does not teach exactly Stack and Tilt, more like an early version of it. If you can Stack (and not Tilt) its a good, simple move, but for the most part, you can't, and so far as I know, its not exactly what they teach, just an older form.


Jim Hardy's One Plane:Two Plane method, I feel, is easier for an average golfer to understand because it doesn't try and apply the same mechanics to every golf swing. There are different sets of positions and fundamentals for what can be basically categorized as "flat" and "upright" swings. So long as someone can tell which he is, and there are definitions all in the book, you can easily work through the process on your own.

I do not judge the merits of a golf swing based simply on what works on the tour. Annika Sorenstam and David Duval used to come to impact with their eyes looking 5-6 feet in front of the ball down the target line. Most wouldn't teach that to students. Jim Furyk makes two huge loops in his swing. I bet no instructor would teach that. Guys and girls on the tours have so much different (read better) feel and control of a golf swing that they can really make nearly anything work.

[Richard Boult]

Ditto RJ's comment - read Extraordinary Golf by Fred Shoemaker!

Regarding the S-word - I had my wedges bent from regular to 2-degrees flat and having had one since. They plagued me for months before that.

Regarding Stack & Tilt - here's a great thread containing hundreds of comments from golfers who've tried it. It's working for most who've tried it. Certainly not garbage... and IMO, you have to be an athlete to execute ANY swing.

http://thesandtrap.com/extras/playing_tips/a_few_months_later_stack_and_tilt

[Richard Choi]

I am with Dan. I had a dreadful case of topped shots earlier this year that I could not fix. My scores were ballooning and was struggling to break a hundred.

Desperate, I tried stack and tilt. Mainly, I concentrate on keeping my weight on my leftside the entire swing and explode up and the impact. It has done wonders for me. I am now back down to breaking 90s regularly (real close to breaking 80). I have never hit so consistently in my life. Just ask my Chambers Bay outing mates - Sean, John, and Michael. They tried to needle me on several tee shots and I still hit solid every time.

Only negative side is that I lost about 10% in distance. But I will take consistency over distance.

[cary lichtenstein]

Try tying our bag to your back bumper, douse it in gasoline, set it on fire and drive down a dirt road. Those clubs will behave the next time

[Bill_McBride]

I guess it gets frustrating not being too consistent.  I've been playing two years now and my handicap is around 12.  Does anyone know how long it takes to shoot pretty consistently without blowing scores up near triple digits or is it just that nature of golf to have highs and lows?

LOL Rick, I've been playing over 50 years, have been as low as a 2, but a 12 or so for years.

Golf is a tough game if you play by the rules.

[Steve Kline]

Sometimes shortening your swing is not the best idea. When I start playing bad I do not make a full shoulder turn and the transition at the top gets quick. I cut my shoulder turn off - in effect swinging shorter - and I never get behind the ball and I start hitting blocks to the right or snap hooks if I get my hands through it. How do I correct it?

1. Concentrate on turning behind the ball - but no necessarily swinging my arms farther.
2. Stand closer to the ball.
3. Move the ball up in my stance.
4. Turn my right shoulder under during the swing - a la Sean Ohair.

However, the thing with all of this is you have to know your own tendencies and what you can do to correct them. Generally, most of us fall into the same faults repeatedly.