Shinnecock or NGLA?

[Jeff Fortson]

If you had ten rounds to play how would you split them up between these two Long Island masterpieces?

Why?

What characteristics, in all aspects of the enjoyment of golf, do you find most enjoyable or unenjoyable about these two?

What are you favorite holes at either?  Why?

I want this to be an open discussions on these two courses. 


My initial answer is.....   I will wait to hear some comments first!  Just know that both are in my personal Top 5 in the world.


Jeff F.

[BVince]

I would settle to experience them both.

[Tom Huckaby]

Aha, Jeff.. a classic question from the GCA archives, perhaps phrased a little differently which is cool.  Many (including me) have often said that how one views these two is quite revelatory about what he prefers in a golf course.

SO, bearing in mind I have played each course exactly once... and NGLA had punched greens that day and I was wielding a broken, head-rattling driver....

If you had ten rounds to play how would you split them up between these two Long Island masterpieces?
Straight off impulsively, I'll say 6 NGLA, 4 Shinnecock.

Why?
NGLA just offers a few more pure fun shots, for me.  Shinnecock is a much more fair test of golf.  I prefer the former to the latter.

What characteristics, in all aspects of the enjoyment of golf, do you find most enjoyable or unenjoyable about these two?
Just very briefly, the strategic choices one faces at NGLA appeal to me, as do the number of chances for glorious risk/reward shots.  I find nothing unenjoyable at either course - they are both absolutely fantastic.

What are you favorite holes at either?  Why?
#2,3,17,18 NGLA
#10, 11, 16 Shinnecock
They are all fantastic golf holes - no real need to elaborate why.  These are just my favorites.  Hell there's not a weak hole in the entire 36.

TH

[Jim Franklin]

Aha, Jeff.. a classic question from the GCA archives, perhaps phrased a little differently which is cool.  Many (including me) have often said that how one views these two is quite revelatory about what he prefers in a golf course.

SO, bearing in mind I have played each course exactly once... and NGLA had punched greens that day and I was wielding a broken, head-rattling driver....

If you had ten rounds to play how would you split them up between these two Long Island masterpieces?
Straight off impulsively, I'll say 6 NGLA, 4 Shinnecock.

Why?
NGLA just offers a few more pure fun shots, for me.  Shinnecock is a much more fair test of golf.  I prefer the former to the latter.

What characteristics, in all aspects of the enjoyment of golf, do you find most enjoyable or unenjoyable about these two?
Just very briefly, the strategic choices one faces at NGLA appeal to me, as do the number of chances for glorious risk/reward shots.  I find nothing unenjoyable at either course - they are both absolutely fantastic.

What are you favorite holes at either?  Why?
#2,3,17,18 NGLA
#10, 11, 16 Shinnecock
They are all fantastic golf holes - no real need to elaborate why.  These are just my favorites.  Hell there's not a weak hole in the entire 36.

TH

+1. Not a weak hole out there. I cannot imagine a better 36 holes of golf in a day.

[Tom Huckaby]

Aha, Jeff.. a classic question from the GCA archives, perhaps phrased a little differently which is cool.  Many (including me) have often said that how one views these two is quite revelatory about what he prefers in a golf course.

SO, bearing in mind I have played each course exactly once... and NGLA had punched greens that day and I was wielding a broken, head-rattling driver....

If you had ten rounds to play how would you split them up between these two Long Island masterpieces?
Straight off impulsively, I'll say 6 NGLA, 4 Shinnecock.

Why?
NGLA just offers a few more pure fun shots, for me.  Shinnecock is a much more fair test of golf.  I prefer the former to the latter.

What characteristics, in all aspects of the enjoyment of golf, do you find most enjoyable or unenjoyable about these two?
Just very briefly, the strategic choices one faces at NGLA appeal to me, as do the number of chances for glorious risk/reward shots.  I find nothing unenjoyable at either course - they are both absolutely fantastic.

What are you favorite holes at either?  Why?
#2,3,17,18 NGLA
#10, 11, 16 Shinnecock
They are all fantastic golf holes - no real need to elaborate why.  These are just my favorites.  Hell there's not a weak hole in the entire 36.

TH

+1. Not a weak hole out there. I cannot imagine a better 36 holes of golf in a day.

Ah but Jim, that question has also been asked before many times.  This is likely the winner... but I can certainly imagine contenders:

Cypress + Pebble
Winged Foot East/West
MPCC Dunes/Shore
St. Andrews Old/New
Muirfield + Gullane #1

In any case it's on the very short short list.

[Kalen Braley]

Huck,

I'd add any twosome at Bandon Dunes Resort to that list as well.

And perhaps even Ballyneal/Sand Hills even though they're in different states. 

[Tom Huckaby]

Certainly - any two at Bandon for sure.

As for Sand Hills/Ballyneal, that rather strains the "play in the same day" criterion which is the normal standard for this.  But yes, have helicopter, will travel!

TH

[Bill_McBride]

Haven't played Shinnecock so can't say. 

Best 36 hole day?  Does it have to be two courses?  My votes:

Muirfield x 2 

NGLA x 2 

Both serve a fantastic lunch between your rounds, great day at each.

[wsmorrison]

While not right next to each other, Merion and Pine Valley should make most people's list of two courses to play in a day. 

[Ronald Montesano]

Since I've played neither, five and five.

Devil's Pulpit and Devil's Paintbrush in Caledon, Ontario.  For that matter, National GC of Canada and Ladies Golf Club of Toronto.  In Columbus, Scioto and The Golf Club.  In Boston, The Country Club and Myopia.

[Ajay Yadav]

Huck,

I'd add any twosome at Bandon Dunes Resort to that list as well.

Bandon dunes / pacific dunes.... yes.... but the 14th, 16th and 18th at Bandon trails do not allow me to put Bandon Trails in the same league of the august company we are talking of...

[Joel_Stewart]

I've played them both and would say NGLA 7 and Shinny 3.

I've played Shinnecock 3 times and find it so hard that it intimates me.   NGLA is so unique and fun yet challenging its almost irristible.

[Jeff Fortson]

NGLA - 5
Shinnecock - 5

I know, what a PC answer right?

NGLA is a museum to me.  I love it.  It captures the chance, quirk, and beauty of the game better than any course I have played.

Shinnecock is the finest examination of one's skills in goof, IMO.  It is truly "the" test to me.  It asks you to hit every shot and demands proper execution.

The older I get the more stock I would put in NGLA but in one's prime the test of Shinnecock is undeniable to the soul of a player trying to achieve excellence.


Jeff F.

[Tom Huckaby]

Jeff:  that's perfectly stated, although also perfectly PC.   

Hopefully your skills never do diminish to the point you don't relish the test.  But you - and Joel more forcefully - nailed the "issue" here.  Shinnecock is a very very difficult golf course on which to score.  It's just plain relentless in its challenge.  I'd agree that if trying to achieve excellence is one's prime motivator, then one should prefer Shinnecock - there is no place better for this.  It tests all aspects of the game, both physical and mental.  It is the ultimate challenge.

But if that is NOT one's prime motivator - if excellence has been given up on, or is not important - I can't see how NGLA would not be preferred.  You said it well - it does indeed capture the chance, quirk and beauty of the game to a huge degree. 

So again to me it comes down to what one values in the game.  You seem to value each part of this equally - and that's cool.  I value quirk chance and beauty a lot more; what prevents me from getting it more than 6-4 is that there's quite a bit of that on Shinnecock also (I think).

TH

[Ted Kramer]

I take exception to Shinnecock being described as relentless and overly difficult. Granted, I only played it once. But I didn't get that feeling at all. It seemed . . . well . . . perfect.

-Ted

[Tom Huckaby]

I take exception to Shinnecock being described as relentless and overly difficult. Granted, I only played it once. But I didn't get that feeling at all. It seemed . . . well . . . perfect.

-Ted

Ted - you and I never seem to be on the same side of anything.   

Just note that I didn't say OVERLY difficult.  I did say relentless.  And I did find it to be that.  The great Rich Goodale stated it well while we played it:  "it's not that hard; all it requires is perfect golf shots."

And I concurred.  Mis-struck shots are ruthlessly punished, particuarly near the greens.

Now Wayne Morrison and I have batted this back and forth for years - he thinks I definitely overstate it.

But that's how I felt playing the course.  Oh man it was fun and I'd play there again in a hearbeat; but as Joel says, it's so hard that it gets irritating. 

TH

[Ted Kramer]

I take exception to Shinnecock being described as relentless and overly difficult. Granted, I only played it once. But I didn't get that feeling at all. It seemed . . . well . . . perfect.

-Ted

Ted - you and I never seem to be on the same side of anything.   

Just note that I didn't say OVERLY difficult.  I did say relentless.  And I did find it to be that.  The great Rich Goodale stated it well while we played it:  "it's not that hard; all it requires is perfect golf shots."

And I concurred.  Mis-struck shots are ruthlessly punished, particuarly near the greens.

Now Wayne Morrison and I have batted this back and forth for years - he thinks I definitely overstate it.

But that's how I felt playing the course.  Oh man it was fun and I'd play there again in a hearbeat; but as Joel says, it's so hard that it gets irritating. 

TH

Fair enough. I don't expect people to agree on stuff like this. I just like to offer my opinion for those who might be interested in another point of view. I think I was a 7 or 8 handicap when I played out there. I shot an 81 having never been on the proerty before. And I wouldn't say I hit the ball extremely well or made a ton of putts. . .

-Ted

[Tom Huckaby]

Ted:  variety is the spice of life as disagreement is the spice of this forum.  It's all good.

I was a 4 when I played there.  I hit the ball decently.  I shot a "soft" 89 with several taken putts and generous drops.

So our different takes are genuine, born from experience for each of us.

One thing - we played the tippy-tip tees.  Seemed fun to me, heck get the full US Open experience.  That did make it tough though.  I just wonder if it would be much easier from shorter tees... to me all the trouble and difficulty were on the approaches, and it wouldn't have made a whole heck of a lot of difference to have 1-2 less clubs in.

TH

[Ted Kramer]

Ted:  variety is the spice of life as disagreement is the spice of this forum.  It's all good.

I was a 4 when I played there.  I hit the ball decently.  I shot a "soft" 89 with several taken putts and generous drops.

So our different takes are genuine, born from experience for each of us.

One thing - we played the tippy-tip tees.  Seemed fun to me, heck get the full US Open experience.  That did make it tough though.  I just wonder if it would be much easier from shorter tees... to me all the trouble and difficulty were on the approaches, and it wouldn't have made a whole heck of a lot of difference to have 1-2 less clubs in.

TH

I don't think we played the tippy tips. We played the back tees that day, but I'd guess that there was plenty of room behind them.

-Ted

[Steve Wilson]

I have not played either one and never will.  Based on what I've read here through the years, I'd play Shinnecock once and NGLA the remainder.

I know that Shinnecock would beat the hell out of me even from the "Forward" tees.  And while NGLA would leave some black and blue marks and even some lumps I think I would enjoy as an educational rather than a punitive experience. 

Of course, my opinion is predicated on seeing Shinnecock set up as it was for the 2004 Open.  I realize it would be much softer under normal conditions, but still I think it would exceed my diminishing abilities in its demands.