Stonewall Olde, North and Merion East.

[John Blain]

I just returned from a two day trip to Philadelphia where my wife and I were treated to rounds at Stonewall and Merion.
I can't tell you how impressed we both were with Stonewall. From the ambiance of the club which is wonderfully understated to both of the golf courses that were a treat to play. The entire Stonewall experience (we stayed at the club) was awesome.

Unfortunately Merion East was a huge disappointment. They punched the greens ten days ago and they were still unputtable. Every hole was an "automatic two-putt." Obviously that alone took away the fun but what would bother me the most if I were a dues paying member was the overall condition of the golf course and I'm not talking about aerated greens. The fairways were horrendous and I'm being kind. I hate to say but the course had a "muny" feel to it. The amount of unfilled divots was shocking and the overall quality of the turf had a diseaesed look to it. The caddies told me that the west course has been mint but the east has had all sorts of problems.

I know there are a lot of Philadelphia people that post on this site so I would be curious as to their opinion on what is up with the conditioning at Merion.

- John

[JSlonis]

The East course is usually in very good condition.  Unfortunately you played at a time where a lot of courses in this area always seem to look their worst.  Even though this August has been pretty mild, a lot of courses look stressed at this time of year due to aeration and other environmental factors.

I'm sure you'll get some feedback since there is a poster here who is a member.

My club was closed last week for 5 days for our aeration program.  I was out at the club yesterday and it looked lousy as well.  In a week or two it'll be back in very good shape.

[Cabell Ackerly]

JB,
I find it hard to believe that you couldn't find anything else to say about Merion East. Most courses have ups and downs in conditioning, and everyone has to aerate their greens. Was there anything architecturally that you liked or disliked, or were you just blinded by the "muni feel"?

[Sean_A]

I just returned from a two day trip to Philadelphia where my wife and I were treated to rounds at Stonewall and Merion.
I can't tell you how impressed we both were with Stonewall. From the ambiance of the club which is wonderfully understated to both of the golf courses that were a treat to play. The entire Stonewall experience (we stayed at the club) was awesome.

Unfortunately Merion East was a huge disappointment. They punched the greens ten days ago and they were still unputtable. Every hole was an "automatic two-putt." Obviously that alone took away the fun but what would bother me the most if I were a dues paying member was the overall condition of the golf course and I'm not talking about aerated greens. The fairways were horrendous and I'm being kind. I hate to say but the course had a "muny" feel to it. The amount of unfilled divots was shocking and the overall quality of the turf had a diseaesed look to it. The caddies told me that the west course has been mint but the east has had all sorts of problems.

I know there are a lot of Philadelphia people that post on this site so I would be curious as to their opinion on what is up with the conditioning at Merion.

- John

JP

But what did you think of the course itself?  Good and bad conditions tend to come and go, but a proper course brings you back again and again regardless of a maintenance schedule or a bad patch.  Personally, I don't give much weight at all to conditioning when it comes to looking at courses.  Of course if something is in outstanding conditioning (very, very rare) or conversely if its in very poor condition (most likely in my case if the rough isn't controlled properly and takes away options) I may add or deduct a small amount.  To really hammer a course for poor conditions I would need to see it many times.  

Ciao

[Dan Herrmann]

I just don't believe what you've said about green aeration at Merion.

I'm 90% certain that Merion used the same technique as our club, 20 miles to the west.  We were back up and running pretty well a week later (I played the day after and they rolled fine - they just looked bad). 

This is the aeration season in SE Pennsylvania.  For example, I can tell you that our tees are now pretty much sand due to the amount of material added to increase sand content in the soil profile.  But that's normal.

And I know that Merion staff goes around the course with divot mix filling in the divots with some regularity.

Having played many munis in my day, I can assure you that Merion has NEVER had a muni feel.

[John Blain]

Dan,

You can think what you want about the condition of Merion. I played it yesterday and I can tell you it was lousy. If you don't want to believe me that is your right. The greens were aerified sometime last week and they were unputtable and I can't imagine they will be even decent for at least another few weeks. I don't have a problem with that because I know it's aerifying season but it does take away when you hit the green and then for all intents and purposes pick your ball up. My biggest gripe was the fairways which were abysmal and there were many, many holes where unfilled divot holes just stood out. The first hole was a perfect example. I drove it about 230 yards and it was a miracle that the ball didn't finish in a divot that hadn't been filled in. Same with number 8. A number of holes had large patches of dead turf particularly in the run-up areas in front of the greens.....
I would never judge a course on conditioning alone but when  you play a golf course that is almost always considered to be in the top 10 courses in the country I was very surprised, to say the least.

On a scale of 1 to 10 both courses at Stonewall were a solid 9 and Merion was a 3.

 - John

[rjsimper]

::ducks and runs for cover::

[Eric Smith]

I would never judge a course on conditioning alone 

You just did

 - Merion East was a huge disappointment
 - the course had a "muny" feel to it
 - fairways which were abysmal
 - Merion was a 3

"I would never judge a course on conditioning alone "

How is it a '3' then? your post bases this rating on conditioning - your words

[Dan Herrmann]

John...
"the fairways were abysmal"
"large patches of dead turf"
"unputtable"
"won't be decent for at least another few weeks"

Even if true (which I doubt), a guest should never post such a diatribe on a public website for all to read.  How do you think this makes your host feel?

[Charles Scalzott]

::ducks and runs for cover::

Hahahaha!

[Charles Scalzott]

I have to admit, I'm a little surprised to hear the degree of conditioning woes being experienced on the East.  I've played several other area clubs in recent weeks and haven't encountered anything described herin.  I hope there isn't a bigger problem on that great course!

Conditions can and do certainly affect the enjoyment one has in a round, but I'm in agreement that it does not entirely overtake/upstage the architecture.  On the flip side of that, I do think that conditioning can and certainly does enhance the architecture as it was intended to be played (e.g. Huntingdon Valley CC only a handful of miles north of the East.)

Does anyone know for sure if Merion has had any unusual/significant turf health issues this summer?  How has it been leading up to this week of aeration?  I can understand the greens being affected through this process but am a little surprised to hear of declining fairway health.  The commentary on the divot situation doesn't compute either.  Very surprised to hear that...especially in the month of August in which I wouldn't think it would get as much play as in other months due to vacation schedules.

[John Gosselin]

John...
"the fairways were abysmal"
"large patches of dead turf"
"unputtable"
"won't be decent for at least another few weeks"

Even if true (which I doubt), a guest should never post such a diatribe on a public website for all to read.  How do you think this makes your host feel?

Dan, I couldn’t agree more.

I also don't think you should continuously throw your former superintendent under the bus on a public forum.

[Dan Herrmann]

John - your point is well taken.

[Matt Dupre]

Driving by Merion daily last week, they were aerating the entire golf course - and it looked like they were putting down a tremendous amount of sand on the fairways as well.  It did not look like the East was even open last weekend.  That work may have resulted in what could be considered short term turf damage.

That being said, the playing experience may have been a "3" due to the conditions you were faced with but the golf course is certainly not a "3".

In fact, while addressing my tee shot on the first (even if standing on aeration holes) I would find it impossible to conjure up a "muni feel."

[Steve_ Shaffer]

JPBlain,

Did your host forewarn you of the conditions and give you the opportunity to reschedule your visit? I recently turned down an invite to a top club because my host forewarned me of green aeration and other work being done on the course.

[Carl Nichols]

Paging Matt Ward.  Is this an example of conditioning bias -- or whatever you want to call the effect on how someone judges a course's architectural merit because of its condition? 

[John Blain]

In all fairness my host did inform me of the greens being aerified (sp.?) a week or so prior to us playing the east and I found out during the round that the course was closed the entire week prior to us playing there. I didn't back out  because we live four hours from Philly and generally aerified greens are least somewhat puttable a week or ten days after the fact. Not these, though. These got beat up pretty good. Once again, the greens being aerified was not the problem. The "problem" was the condition of the fairways. Not having played Merion in 16 years I was just very surprised at the overall condition of the fairways. Having played both courses at Stonewall the day before just added to the bad experience. Both the Old and the North at Stonewall were in mint condition so when I stepped on the first fairway at Merion it was shocking. Even my caddie (who was terrific) told me that the general conditioning of the east has been disappointing this year but the west has been great.

I'm not trying to cause trouble. I was just wondering if anyone knew or has heard of Merion East having problems as of late..?? The fact that the course was closed for a week in August is a red flag, no? When you are a guest of two clubs in the same area and one has two courses that are mint and the third and very famous last course you play is lousy it just raises a red flag. Overall I thought the design and the layout was awesome. The bunkering was incredible. It was just the conditioning that was really lousy.

-John

[wsmorrison]

John,

I am sorry you didn't enjoy your day at Merion East.

Decisions being made today are being done with the Walker Cup in mind next year and the US Open in 2013.  The typical aeration that was to be done in June could not be done.  This recent work was a large tine drill and fill aeration and is the last major aeration before the Walker Cup.  I don't think it is fair to compare the processes going on at a club with major events on the horizon with clubs that have different agendas and requirements.  Some clubs allow poa annua and other clubs want to control it.  The fairways have a fair amount of poa in some spots and it is being controlled which at times is not a pretty sight.  They are going to be sodded a bit later in the year with bent.  They know what they are doing.  It was unfortunate that the timeline for the club did not coincide with the timeline of a guest.  If a club chooses to act for the long run and the membership is OK with it, that is the most important factor.  If you only live 4 hours away, perhaps you could have put off your round till later in September or in October.  Those are wonderful times to play in and around Philadelphia.  Or perhaps you can come back sometime.  You chose the wrong time to visit.  Did you tell your host that the course had a muni feel to it?  If not, why did you do so on the Internet? 

The course is improving dramatically day by day.  I don't know if there were agronomic or other reasons why the greens weren't cut and rolled until a few days later, but I assure you all, we have one of the finest staffs in the business with the means to do what is necessary.  The decision timeline is longer than most clubs, but that is understandable.  Right?  I can tell you that today was a lot better than yesterday and certainly the day before.  This past weekend and the first couple of days this week weren't really worth playing unless the opportunity to do so is rarely available.   Still, the architecture is worth considering if that's what you're into.  You said you are in the business and fairly well connected with the privates in the area.  Why didn't you go elsewhere?  Your host properly alerted you that there were conditioning problems.  The decision was yours and yet you seem to be transferring that responsibility or at least the consequences of your decison.

[Scott Stambaugh]

I don't know JP Blain but if his opinion is a course is in poor (muni) shape then why is there a problem expressing his opinion.  First, many of you have made a joke of Merion the past few months ripping to shreds its history in the most profane way, and second you don't hesitate to criticise designs and particular architects like Rees Jones so why should criticism be spared here just because it might offend a superintendent. 

To me, the fact that it is Merion is a non-issue.  It could be any club, anywhere and it seems the answers to his concerns are not going to be found on a forum where 99.9% of the members cannot offer any insight.  The answers should have come from the hosting member.  How embarrassing for the member if this gets back to him/her. 

And, most people on here are quick to critisize/debate archirecture because (I think) that is one of the premises of this site.  By the time people on this site are debating a particular architect, the check has already been cashed.  Ripping the condition of a course can have a negative impact on a Superintendent and his staff.  I always appreciate the Tour players who are quick to critisize the quality of a golf course if it is not to their satisfaction on a particular week.  People lose their jobs over stuff ilke this.  Although, I'm pretty sure not the case with this event.

Wayne- Someone in the 'business' would have known most everything you explained in detail. 

Scott

[Dan Herrmann]

Scott,
But I think most of know how important aeration is, don't we? 

I know what Wayne means about large/deep tine aeration.  We had this done in the spring - they went all the way down to the gravel under the greens, and the tines were (I think) 1/4 inch in width.  They were big suckers, but they worked really well.

In the same vein, we're doing our tee boxes right now.  They will punch one day and sand-fill two days later.  It isn't a pretty process.  In fact, it's really long, tough work.  But it's critical for the health of the living thing that is a golf course.

[Jerry Kluger]

You know, some people would have looked at Bethpage Black before its restoration and said why bother.

[mike_malone]

 Merion's aggressive approach to poa elimination in the  fairways should be applauded. I understand this is best done in August since that is when bent grass can best overcome poa. I played there in past Augusts and was told why the fairways looked a bit unsightly. If Merion gets abused for this then no other club will ever try it.

[JSlonis]

Merion's aggressive approach to poa elimination in the  fairways should be applauded. I understand this is best done in August since that is when bent grass can best overcome poa. I played there in past Augusts and was told why the fairways looked a bit unsightly. If Merion gets abused for this then no other club will ever try it.

Mike,

There is a chemical that is now being used for Poa control in our area with very good success.  It is called "Velocity" and it is very good in eliminating Poa.  The best time for its use is during a 4-6 week period beginning in early June.  The application rates are very important to control because it can also stress out the bent grass as well if you're not careful.  It is also only approved for use on fairway/tee turf, not for greens.

The timing of this application is key because it'll kill the Poa while the bent it still thriving and it comes before the period in our area where the bent is usually stressed.

If courses have a good amount of Poa in their fairways, you'll definitely see some turf loss associated with this treatment.  In time, the bent will take over those spots or in larger areas they need to be resodded with bent.

We've had a lot of success with our Velocity program this year.  Even though our bent fairways are only two years old, we still had some Poa in them after the grow in period because the granular Basimid didn't completely kill it all at the start of the project.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa4031/is_200306/ai_n9276369

[Jerry Kluger]

Ohio State published a report demonstrating that A4 bentgrass greens could successfully fight off poa - has anyone redone their greens using A4 where they previously had poa greens - did it work? 

[JSlonis]

Ohio State published a report demonstrating that A4 bentgrass greens could successfully fight off poa - has anyone redone their greens using A4 where they previously had poa greens - did it work? 

Jerry,

I'm sure some clubs in this area have used A4 either alone or in conjunction with other "A" strains.  Although I have not read that report, I don't think the grass type alone will fend off Poa.