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Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #600 on: September 09, 2008, 10:25:42 AM »
Tom MacWood,

You've saved quotes of Wayne's and Tom's from over 5 years ago??

Cue the "Psycho" music!! 

Glad this isn't a personal vendetta...  ::)

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #601 on: September 09, 2008, 10:29:26 AM »
Mike
Are you familiar with the search engine? You can find past posts rather easily. As an example if you entered Marrucci and Merion and Fazio what do you think you would find...my have times changed.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #602 on: September 09, 2008, 10:32:21 AM »
"TE
As usual you are good at personal insults not so good at backing up your claims."

Mr. MacWood:

The time has unfortunately come again when you very much deserve to be insulted for your participation on here with this garbage of yours.

If you'd like to see some holes on a course that go through depressions and play up to high and raised greens perhaps you should take the time to visit MYOPIA for the first fucking time in your life!  :P

I think we are back to that point with you where some of us will need to follow you everywhere you go on this website and explain how wrong your opinions really are. I feel the integrity of the history of golf architecture essentially demands that we do that.

Mike
Speaking of personal vendettas....what do you make of this?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #603 on: September 09, 2008, 10:49:46 AM »
I think it's the frustration that many of us feel with this endless misleading speculation, the constant pointless arguments and refusal to grant even the most basic facts as reality.

Yesterday I posted the most basic, declarative post related to Cobb's Creek stating how the term "Laid Out" referred to design of the course because the same sentence stated that work would begin in the spring.

Your compadre refused to even make that simple, basic, admission.

Your continued insistence that some fragment of a Barker routing MUST have gone forward despite no evidence of that whatsoever and much evidence to the contrary is similarly just bafflingly irrational and seemingly agenda-driven and obstinately contentious.

The fact that you would implicity contend that Hugh WIlson and his Committee and the rest of the in the know Merion members at the time completely STOLE Barker's routing is an insult to the entire club.    The fact that you implicity contend that they also didn't appropriately credit Macdonald & Whigham for their "design" work is a similar insult.   The fact that you basically accuse ALan Wilson of lying is insulting on every level.

I can see why people get pissed because I share their frustration trying to actually have dialogue with you guys.

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #604 on: September 09, 2008, 11:12:01 AM »
Mr. MacWood:

That post of mine you quoted is not a personal vendetta at all, it is accepting a very important responsibility towards the integrity of the history of golf course architecture and particularly the integrity of the history of a few very important American courses and clubs and of the impressive men from those clubs that had to do with them.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 11:14:07 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #605 on: September 09, 2008, 11:21:32 AM »
Mr. MacWood:


Thank you for that quotation in your post #605 from four years or so ago. I can't imagine why I haven't won more literary awards and kudos than I already have for my glorious satire. Things like that are definitely inspired by the ridiculous impression and opinion you and your protege have of Hugh Wilson and the rest of the Merion people from back then and what they WERE NOT capable of accomplishing. Frankly, I've always suspected iconoclasts of the type and degree that you two are. I think the most interesting thing to do is to figure out why it is that you two have such massive chips on your shoulder, as well as what those massive chips are!    ;) 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 11:25:53 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #606 on: September 09, 2008, 11:22:04 AM »
TE
In a perverted way your attempts to stiffle discovery and criticize have actually led to some of the most dramatic discoveries. So I would have to agree with you, you serve a very important role and your involvement has been a great benefit.

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #607 on: September 09, 2008, 11:28:19 AM »
Mr. MacWood:

Thank you, THANK YOU, thank you very much. It's really quite amazing the important things I've discovered during my time and deep research into the world of golf course architecture, isn't it? But the important and noble mission of snuffing out revisionism in the history of golf architecture is never really done, particularly when you two backward Indians are still around.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 11:30:48 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #608 on: September 09, 2008, 11:36:06 AM »
"The fact that you would implicity contend that Hugh WIlson and his Committee and the rest of the in the know Merion members at the time completely STOLE Barker's routing is an insult to the entire club.    The fact that you implicity contend that they also didn't appropriately credit Macdonald & Whigham for their "design" work is a similar insult.   The fact that you basically accuse ALan Wilson of lying is insulting on every level.

I can see why people get pissed because I share their frustration trying to actually have dialogue with you guys."




MikeC:

That is the absolute essence of this on-going Merion thing. I think you should run the above on here every day until the entire INTERNET world of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com gets that picture, as it's the truth and it's what this whole thing is about. We had hope but this website took a real turn for the worse when those two came back on here with that ludicrous Merion Essay entitled "The Missing Faces of Merion".   ::)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 11:38:15 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #609 on: September 09, 2008, 11:43:13 AM »
Mr. MacWood:

What happened to your supposition that there is some evidence out there that Lloyd had a part in that "syndicate"? Have you suddenly gotten cold feet about something or do you figure your lack of understanding of it will be embarrassing to you and your opinion of yourself that you are some "expert researcher?   ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #610 on: September 09, 2008, 11:53:40 AM »
"The fact that you would implicity contend that Hugh WIlson and his Committee and the rest of the in the know Merion members at the time completely STOLE Barker's routing is an insult to the entire club.    The fact that you implicity contend that they also didn't appropriately credit Macdonald & Whigham for their "design" work is a similar insult.   The fact that you basically accuse ALan Wilson of lying is insulting on every level.

I can see why people get pissed because I share their frustration trying to actually have dialogue with you guys."

MikeC:

That is the absolute essence of this on-going Merion thing. I think you should run the above on here every day until the entire INTERNET world of GOLFCLUBATLAS.com gets that picture, as it's the truth and it's what this whole thing is about. We had hope but this website took a real turn for the worse when those two came back on here with that ludicrous Merion Essay entitled "The Missing Faces of Merion".   ::)

Tom,

It really is, isn't it?

That and their complete refusal to even acknowledge the most basic facts when they don't suit their "theories".

This is the Philadelphia Inquirer report from early 1915 that I quoted the other day;


"Such experts as Hugh Wilson, who laid out the Merion and Seaview courses, George Klauder, one of the constructors of the Aronimink course, and Ab Smith, who had done a lot for the Huntingdon Valley course, have laid out the course in Cobb's Creek park and work begins in early spring.   There are so many natural hazards that this problem has not been much of a bother to the golf architects."


Mike Cirba:

David,

Would you agree that in the case above "laid out" clearly means "planned", "Designed", and "architected"?

At the point this was written, not a single stone was overturned in terms of constructing the course.



David Moriarty:

I don't know enough about the details of the courses to say. 



I do still believe that David could pass a 3rd grade reading comprehension test, which is about the level of the sentence above, so I have to believe he's simply being....
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 11:58:37 AM by MikeCirba »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #611 on: September 09, 2008, 12:49:20 PM »
Tom MacWood.  Don't you get it?  It is not a personal vendetta, it is a very important personal vendetta.

_________________________________


Mike Cirba.  For the life of me I cannot figure out what you are talking about.   I do not know what "laid out" meant in that quote, and you do not know for a fact either.  Had they staked out hole locations?  Had they a written plan?  I have no idea, nor am I going to speculate based on your opinion.   If I did have an idea it would not be an "admission" but an "opinion" based on limited information.

If you ask me whether I think Hugh Wilson was involved in the planning at this point, I'd say yes.   But again I do not know the history of the course too well.  If you ask me whether the term "laid out" sometimes included a planning component, I'd say yes.

But do I know whether the term meant to design, to plan, to architect in that quote?  No I don't.

If you are frustrated by this, I cannot help you.  Perhaps if you asked questions that do not require "admissions" of your speculation you might be more satisfied with the answer.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Rich Goodale

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #612 on: September 09, 2008, 12:52:45 PM »

Mike
You are sounding a bit paranoid. If you paid a little more attention you would see I have questioned and/or corrected the architectural attribution of scores of courses: Bethpage, Myopia, San Francisco, GCGC, NGLA, St. Andrews-Old, St. Andrews-New, Columbus CC, Addington-Old, Olympia Fields-South, Rye, Quaker Ridge, Muirfield, Dornoch, Brora, Lahinch, Cruden Bay, County Down, Worlington, etc.


Tom

If you take out the "and/or corrected" out of the above statement, it would be far closer to the truth. ;)

Rich

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #613 on: September 09, 2008, 01:09:40 PM »
Richard the Magnificent:

That is priceless, and of course very true.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #614 on: September 09, 2008, 01:49:22 PM »
David,

You're the person who claimed in your essay that all of the early accounts of Hugh Wilson having "laid out" Merion meant that he had simply CONSTRUCTED it to someone else's plans.  You know quite well the distinction I'm drawing here just as you know quite well that the author meant planned as well.

I know you're a smart guy but I also know you're a disengenuous one when you deny the obvious.

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #615 on: September 09, 2008, 02:05:41 PM »
David,

You're the person who claimed in your essay that all of the early accounts of Hugh Wilson having "laid out" Merion meant that he had simply CONSTRUCTED it to someone else's plans.  You know quite well the distinction I'm drawing here just as you know quite well that the author meant planned as well.

I know you're a smart guy but I also know you're a disengenuous one when you deny the obvious.

Mike,  I tried to understand the terminology as best I could.   As I have said, "lay out" is tricky and is somewhere between plan and construct, and is often used inconsistently and with some confusion.   

As for your continued accusations about my intentions and whether or not I am being genuine, this says much more about you than me. 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 02:07:27 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #616 on: September 09, 2008, 02:20:59 PM »
Mike,  I tried to understand the terminology as best I could.   As I have said, "lay out" is tricky and is somewhere between plan and construct, and is often used inconsistently and with some confusion.   

As for your continued accusations about my intentions and whether or not I am being genuine, this says much more about you than me. 

David,

If construction hadn't started yet (the article states it will start in early spring), then wouldn't "have laid out" in the past tense HAVE to refer to prior planning or architecting? 

As to the tone of your posts, I can't tell you with 100% certainty or absolute proof that I'm alive and breathing but at some point I have to just act on obvious common sense.


DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #617 on: September 09, 2008, 02:36:00 PM »
It could have referred to the planning, but it also could have referred to staking out the course and its features either with or without a written plan.   I cannot say definitively what he meant.  You demand I see it your way for rhetorical purposes, yet you attack my intentions?

My "tone" is to answer honestly as best I can.  But I am growing quite tired of doing so only to have you flip out about my intentions every few posts.  Good grief.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #618 on: September 09, 2008, 02:43:57 PM »
It could have referred to the planning, but it also could have referred to staking out the course and its features either with or without a written plan.   I cannot say definitively what he meant.  You demand I see it your way for rhetorical purposes, yet you attack my intentions?


David,

I didn't ask you to parse or differentiate between the architectural/design/planning activities of  "staking out the course", "planning", and/or "with or without a written plan".

I asked you to define how "laid out" is used in the quote;

It's either a planning (architectural) activity or a construction activity.

Either or.

Black or White.

Yes or No.

There is no safe, murky, squishy middle ground.

Why is this a difficult or complex question??
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 02:45:42 PM by MikeCirba »

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #619 on: September 09, 2008, 03:31:20 PM »
MikeC:

The way MCC and the Wilson Committee used the term "laid out" in their 1911 planning for the Merion East course there is no way at all it could mean construction. It had to mean designing by staking and such on the ground or on a paper plan or both for completely obvious timeline reasons.

Some of those guys could be sort of quaint with the terms they used because the president of MCC from time to time tended to refer to the laying out of the course as the "laying off" of the course.  ;)

It certainly would be very cool if we could find the plan of the Wilson Committee that was approved and built (the maddening thing is the report submitted to the board mentions that plan was attached to it and it even seems like you can see where it was but it's gone now). But what would really be cool is to also be able to find and analyze all the other plans the Wilson Committee did for Merion East in the winter and spring of 1911. What if one or some of them seemed even better?  ;)

Actually I did find one of them and it had some of the most amazing and challenging holes you ever saw but unfortunately on the bottom of it was a note that said:

"Ooops, sorry, even though I think I have found the most interesting and challenging holes and layout on the property, when I counted them up I see there are only sixteen of them. A regulation golf course is eighteen holes, right? If none of you fellows know the answer to that would one of you mind calling up Charlie and asking him if he knows?"
Hugh "The Novice" Wilson
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 03:46:47 PM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #620 on: September 09, 2008, 06:30:43 PM »
Kirk Gill
Full Member

 Offline

Posts: 980



    Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #574 on: Yesterday at 10:47:35 pm »   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote from: Tom MacWood on Yesterday at 10:20:35 pm
Obviously Alan Wilson did not consider M&W architects, although I reckon they themselves would have disagreed with him. Alan Wilson was not involved in the project. His report is second hand and came years after the fact.





"Is it that Mr. Wilson didn't consider M&W to be architects, or that he didn't consider that the nature of their contribution was such that they were "used" in the way he meant? Just a possibility. What possible reason would Mr. Wilson have to diminish the accompishments of Macdonald? Was there an animosity there?"


Kirk:

I feel pretty strongly that all Alan Wilson meant in his report by the fact that Merion did not use an "architect" and that their courses were "home-made", only had to do with the fact that Merion did not hire or use a professional in the design of their courses in 1911-1913 (East and West courses).

If you'd like to know why I think they didn't I'd be happy to tell you but one thing you should know is MCC felt the club and its membership was probably the best representation of the concept and ethos of the true "amateur" or "amateur/sportsman" in the nation. They felt very strongly that was their essence and theme.

We can prove that to you by putting on here a speech given in 1915 by Edward Sayers, the long time secretary and then president of the club on the fiftieth anniversary of the club. A part of it speaks directly to this very issue. Apparently the club thought so much of his speech they asked him to publish it and we have it.

I think it says most everything we need to know about why they turned to Macdonald and Whigam, a couple of "amateurs" and "amateur/sportsmen" of the highest order who were just like them.
 

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #621 on: September 09, 2008, 06:37:02 PM »
"TE
I never mentioned MCC. There is no evidence HDC (Connell, Lloyd, Hutson, Atterbury, Filton, etc) were disatisfied with Barker. They brought in Barker and Macdonald because they were the cream of the crop.

Richard Francis is pretty clear on what his contribution was...and when there became an issue relating to HDC who did he immediately call?

Obviously Alan Wilson did not consider M&W architects, although I reckon they themselves would have disagreed with him. Alan Wilson was not involved in the project. His report is second hand and came years after the fact.

If you knew Lloyd was part of HDC in 1910 why did you object to the Inquirer article which stated he had the property inspected by Barker & CBM?"



Mr. MacWood:

Would you like to discuss these items and questions of yours or would you rather ignore them? You did say you thought there was some evidence out there that Lloyd was part of the syndicate. Do you want to tell me what you know or think about that and hear what I know and think about it?

Oh how about you, Mr. Moriarty? Would you like to discuss those items in a calm and logical manner or would you rather ignore them?
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 06:47:04 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #622 on: September 09, 2008, 06:48:35 PM »
It could have referred to the planning, but it also could have referred to staking out the course and its features either with or without a written plan.   I cannot say definitively what he meant.  You demand I see it your way for rhetorical purposes, yet you attack my intentions?


David,

I didn't ask you to parse or differentiate between the architectural/design/planning activities of  "staking out the course", "planning", and/or "with or without a written plan".

I asked you to define how "laid out" is used in the quote;

It's either a planning (architectural) activity or a construction activity.

Either or.

Black or White.

Yes or No.

There is no safe, murky, squishy middle ground.

Why is this a difficult or complex question??

There you go again.  Not only demanding an answer, but making the question multiple choice with the correct one missing. 

I don't know what the author meant.  It is far from black and white. Here is how I explained it to Peter a week or so ago . . .

Peter,

First, I am not equating "laying out" a golf course with "constructing" a golf course.   There are three overlapping but sometimes distinct concepts:  Planning, laying out, and constructing.    It is a bit confusing, I am not sure I totally understand it, and am pretty sure that often-times those recording these things were still figuring out how to use the terminology.  Nonetheless, here is a quick and dirty, over-generalized, and oversimplified explanation, looking at the evolution historically:

        Once upon a time, golf links were just "laid out."   Some shepherd walked around the dunes, found some good grass, and put a hole in the ground, walked for a while, found another good chunk of grass, put another hole, etc.    He simply laid the course out on the ground.  Any "planning" that took place was part of the laying out.  Same goes for the "constructing," which might not have amounted to anything other than digging holes.   
        With the advent of man-made hazards and artificially leveled and/or contoured greens, the need for constructing arose.   With the game spreading around the globe to those without much experience with the game, the need for planning a golf course arose.   Somewhere in between was the concept of "laying the course out on the ground."  Sometimes part of planning, sometimes part of constructing, sometimes neither.


Early on in this transition, before the planners were doing detailed plans or putting much of anything on paper, it seems like their contribution was easy to minimize or totally ignore.   The people getting their hands dirty are not mentioned much either.   It seems like the person in the middle, the one taking the planners advice and telling the builders what to build are the ones who got the most credit, usually for laying out the course.

I am sure it will not satisfy you, but it is the best I can do based on what I have read. 
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 06:56:19 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #623 on: September 09, 2008, 08:11:40 PM »
David,

Thank you for that thoughtful answer.

I understand the distinctions you are drawing, but would add something to that.

From my perspective, the person who does the "planning" is the architect, whether in your example that person is the original primitive linksman who walked around the dunes without any plan and just "laid out" holes, or someone sitting at a drafting board or CAD program with a topographical map or whatever, even if like Donald Ross at times they are simply mailing it in remotely.

Yet, as you alluded, there are really two parts to the architectural process, aren't there?   There is the routing of the holes along the land and then there is the planning and creation of any man-made features, whether they be bunkers, mounds, ponds, or other earth-moving tasks that are intended to make the routed holes more interesting and/or challenging.

Technically, as in the examples like Stonewall I provided the other day, I believe that it's possible for one person to plan the routing and one person to plan the interior hole features;  in fact, I'm betting it happens a lot more than we realize.

In that example, I'd provide co-credit to both, although again using Stonewall as an example, I'd claim it's a Tom Doak course primarily because he created the features, the green designs, the strategies, and altered the routing where feasible and desirable to achieve a better course.   I think he'd agree and I also think he'd be honest enough to say that Fazio deserved more credit for creating the initial routing if he really believed that.

The lines get blurrier beyond that, especially with the example of a team like Doaks where guys like Jim Urbina and others have latitude in the field to try different things.    Yet, even in that example, I'd still credit the principal architect, because ultimately they are the ones signing off on the design and on the construction.   Thus, even though I'd bet that Fred Pickering added some touches and creative flourishes based in his years in construction, I still wouldn't credit him as some type of co-architect of Merion.

Instead, I think due credit there should be given to 1) whoever created the routing, and 2) whoever was responsible for designing the internal hole features.

I know we strongly disagree on who that first person(s) was in the case of Merion, and we also probably disagree on the second.   

In either case, just so we can get on the same page and possibly a better understanding, I wanted to make sure that your thoughtful answer received one in kind.

I guess to summarize, I would still break it out simply between design and construction, even recognizing the various permutations and venues I've just outlined.   



To


TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #624 on: September 09, 2008, 08:39:52 PM »
MikeC:

Nice to see things have gotten kind and considerate again but on this subject of "laying out" or whatever, I hope the essayist isn't still trying to convince you that in the case of Merion East the term "laying out" only meant constructing because that very clearly was not the case.

When the term "laying out" was used by various people it just meant what they meant---it was definitely not some standardized agreed upon terminology back then.

And I should remind you that the essayist did say in his essay that Wilson and committee did not design Merion East, they only constructed the course to someone else's plan. I can quote that from the essay but the fact is that seminal conclusion in the essay isn't even close to the truth.