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Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #375 on: September 03, 2008, 08:45:25 PM »
Patrick,

Now that's just plain silly.

Here, we have some of the top golf course researchers in the world working to elevate Macdonald's status.

Why Tom MacWood and David Moriarty could tell you the name of Hugh Wilson's maid in 1908 and the name of Herbert Barker's ship in 1915, and the exact date and hour of HJ Whigham's induction into the Loyal Order of Toadies in 1904 but they can't cite a single piece of existing documentation that shows a single person playing on NGLA in 1909. who wasn't one of the original owners/designers, such as Emmett, Macdonald, Travis, Whigham, or others.   ;)

ALL accounts of the 1910 tournament...American Golfer's...George Bahto's...and other news accounts of the time all stated that the July 1910 tournament was the inaugural.

Even at that time, they mentioned that the course condition was very rough and unfinished.

IN fact, it wasn't until 14 months later that the course actually opened to membership.

My agenda is to stop this ridiculous attempt to change the historical record.

If "they" were playing NGLA in 1909, and "they" were more than just Macdonald and his closest co-developers and co-designers, then it should be a very simple matter to provide proof here.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, Patrick.

I'm just asking to see the proof.  ;D

 

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #376 on: September 03, 2008, 08:49:40 PM »
Patrick,

Now that's just plain silly.

Here, we have some of the top golf course researchers in the world working to elevate Macdonald's status.

Why Tom MacWood and David Moriarty could tell you the name of Hugh Wilson's maid in 1908 and the name of Herbert Barker's ship in 1915, and the exact date and hour of HJ Whigham's induction into the Loyal Order of Toadies in 1904 but they can't cite a single piece of existing documentation that shows a single person playing on NGLA in 1909. who wasn't one of the original owners/designers, such as Emmett, Macdonald, Travis, Whigham, or others.   ;)

ALL accounts of the 1910 tournament...American Golfer's...George Bahto's...and other news accounts of the time all stated that the July 1910 tournament was the inaugural.

Even at that time, they mentioned that the course condition was very rough and unfinished.

IN fact, it wasn't until 14 months later that the course actually opened to membership.

My agenda is to stop this ridiculous attempt to change the historical record.

If "they" were playing NGLA in 1909, and "they" were more than just Macdonald and his closest co-developers and co-designers, then it should be a very simple matter to provide proof here.

I'm not saying it didn't happen, Patrick.

I'm just asking to see the proof.  ;D

I've provided the proof a dozen times, you just fail to acknowledge it.

It's on page 194 of "Scotland's Gift" the book that MACDONALD wrote.

Get the book, read page 194 and you'll see the proof that's been offered to you at least a dozen times.



Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #377 on: September 03, 2008, 08:53:11 PM »
Patrick,

I seem to recall you disputing Alan Wilson's recollections of things in the 1920s.

We already know that Macdonald made a mistake on the date of Ward's round...it was a LOT of years later when he was transcribing his recollections.

Macdonald trumpeted his idea of an "ideal course" at NGLA to anyone and everyone who would listen for quite a number of years.

Are you telling me that after about 5 years of planning he finally got it open to play and there is not ONE SINGLE NEWSPAPER ACCOUNT that anyone can find to validate play there in 1909??!   :o ;)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #378 on: September 03, 2008, 09:27:26 PM »
Patrick,

I seem to recall you disputing Alan Wilson's recollections of things in the 1920s.

Primarily because they conflicted with others.


We already know that Macdonald made a mistake on the date of Ward's round...it was a LOT of years later when he was transcribing his recollections.

Macdonald trumpeted his idea of an "ideal course" at NGLA to anyone and everyone who would listen for quite a number of years.

Are you telling me that after about 5 years of planning he finally got it open to play and there is not ONE SINGLE NEWSPAPER ACCOUNT that anyone can find to validate play there in 1909??!   :o ;)

Mike, your logic defies description.

Must we recollect the newspaper accounts of Wilson's alleged trip abroad prior to 1912.

Perhaps, because it was an informal gathering of MacDonald's friends and not a formal tournament, IT WOULDN'T BE IN ONE SINGLE NEWSPAPER ACCOUNT !

When MacDonald goes to great lengths to name some of the participants and the results of some of the matches, I doubt he conjured up a tournament that never existed.

It's mind boggling to me that you refuse to accept a fairly well documented fact from the architect himself.  Not just a vague recollection mind you, but, a recall that names participants and the results of a series of matches.

Your repeated failure to accept the documented evidence and your propensity for faulty logic, strikes at your credibilty and screams ....AGENDA, loud and clear. ;D



Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #379 on: September 03, 2008, 09:32:09 PM »
"Perhaps, because it was an informal gathering of MacDonald's friends and not a formal tournament, IT WOULDN'T BE IN ONE SINGLE NEWSPAPER ACCOUNT !"

Patrick,

If the only play at NGLA at that time was just Macdonald playing a roughly-hewn, still being-built course that was about 75% completed in 1909 with a few of his closest friends, then please don't claim that the course had world-class influence by that time because it clearly didn't.

It was a highly anticipated offering, for certain, and there was a lot of excitement, but it wasn't yet a huge influencer of golf course design for one simple reason;

If ain't nobody seen or played it, then nobody could learn the lessons it taught.  ;)




Mike Sweeney

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #380 on: September 03, 2008, 09:40:08 PM »

If ain't nobody seen or played it, then nobody could learn the lessons it taught.  ;)


Mike,

Sitting next to Shinnecock Hills Golf Club one of the founding clubs of the USGA, I doubt that nobody saw the course during construction. The fact that CB Mac was persona non grata at Shinnecock probably made it more interesting to many people.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #381 on: September 03, 2008, 09:42:14 PM »
Sweens,

Based on the state of the Shinnecock course at that time, do you really think that the membership there was in the vanguard of intellectual thinking about golf course architecture in 1909/10?

They were probably just happy that Macdonald took out some trees blocking their view of the bay!   ;D

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #382 on: September 03, 2008, 09:59:29 PM »
Kelly,

One of the best things about this site is the participation on working architects!

I can easily understand your desire to build unique and creative golf holes. But have you ever built any Redans? (Sorry if I am not familar with all of your work.) If not, is that because you felt that there are enough Redans out there already? As an absolute rank "armchair architect" I imagine that I would build a Redan on every course that I designed if I saw a proper place for one. My logic would be that I know I would be building a fun, challenging hole that golfers would enjoy. Or is that taking the easy way?

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #383 on: September 03, 2008, 11:21:42 PM »
Quote
Now, one could argue that the duplicates exceed the original in strategy, but I think only someone who has played both several times can make such a case...
.
Kelly,
I wholeheartedly agree with both halves of this sentence....

Quote
...and even then you must temper their remarks with the fact that the basis of their arguments lie with favoritism, or I believe the term may be provincialism.
....but I don't understand why, if it's possible to argue that the 'duplicates' exceed (or even just equal) the originals in strategy, that argument is provincial. Can no one be objective and come to that conclusion?

That was my post, agreeing with you and asking a question of you, to which you answered:
Quote
Jim
I don't really like expressing this because I would rather say otherwise so I don’t seem too negative, but I really have lost faith in people being able to acknowledge someone’s opinion to embrace that opinion when it contradicts their own about a subject in which they have a particular interest or stake.  This realization has come to me on many different levels: political, religious, architectural, etc.  Typically, what I see between two people is the repetition of their own views rather than a mutual exploration of each person’s views.  That said, I hope it explains my statement which you questioned.

I didn't question you, your statement, or your belief,  I asked you a question, that's all. As a matter of fact I agreed with most of what you said, and I think the above will show that. And no, you didn't answer it but that's OK. 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #384 on: September 04, 2008, 12:22:57 AM »
If ain't nobody seen or played it, then nobody could learn the lessons it taught.  ;)


Fascinating.    You spent months arguing that Wilson need not have seen the great links courses before designing Merion East, even though the design was reportedly modeled after holes on the great links courses.  Yet now you claim that nobody could learn anything from NGLA unless they saw it and played it?     I am not sure.  Is this Irony? Hypocrisy?  Both?

Or do you now agree at least some of Merion is based on NGLA? 
___________________

You claim that NGLA was 75% built in 1909.   Any support? Or are you just making things up to suit your argument?
________________________

Here, we have some of the top golf course researchers in the world working to elevate Macdonald's status.

Why Tom MacWood and David Moriarty could tell you the name of Hugh Wilson's maid in 1908 and the name of Herbert Barker's ship in 1915, and the exact date and hour of HJ Whigham's induction into the Loyal Order of Toadies in 1904 but they can't cite a single piece of existing documentation that shows a single person playing on NGLA in 1909. who wasn't one of the original owners/designers, such as Emmett, Macdonald, Travis, Whigham, or others.   ;)

Mike, this sarcastic nonsense wore thin months ago.  Give it a rest, why don't you?

1.   I don't take requests.  I doubt Tom MacWood does either.   It doesn't matter who played.  The course was far enough along to be playable and not deeply marred in construction like you and others have repeatedly suggested.   

2.   Even so, I have given you some names and others have as well.    You have even been provided with the location of a photograph of golfers playing the course in 1909!  Yet here we are still.  So what is this about? 

3.   NGLA's influence went far beyond those who played the course.

Quote
ALL accounts of the 1910 tournament...American Golfer's...George Bahto's...and other news accounts of the time all stated that the July 1910 tournament was the inaugural.

Even at that time, they mentioned that the course condition was very rough and unfinished.

That is NOT what the article said.  And Bahto said they were playing the course in 1909. 

Quote
IN fact, it wasn't until 14 months later that the course actually opened to membership.

A few posts above you highlighted where the article said that the tournament marked an "informal opening."   Yet you are already back to this bit about the course not being open to the members until Sept. 1911.   As CBM wrote, the club "formally opened" in Sept. 1911 when the clubhouse was finished.  But it had been informally opened for quite some time.

Quote
My agenda is to stop this ridiculous attempt to change the historical record.

Then your enemy is within.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 01:27:53 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom Lehman

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #385 on: September 04, 2008, 01:44:17 AM »
Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?  Well, there are several reasons, more than I care to go into here.  But golf is a sport, something most people do for enjoyment, and the one overriding quality of MacDonald/Raynor is that they are really fun to play.  Game, set, match MacDonald/Raynor!!!!!!!!!!!

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #386 on: September 04, 2008, 03:03:43 AM »
Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?  Well, there are several reasons, more than I care to go into here.  But golf is a sport, something most people do for enjoyment, and the one overriding quality of MacDonald/Raynor is that they are really fun to play.  Game, set, match MacDonald/Raynor!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll bet John Ward of Garden City thought so as well.  I'd imagine that going 2-2-4-2 on Holes 1-4 (then 10-13) at NGLA would be an quite a thrill for top player even today.  But to do it in 1910?  Incredible.

____________________________

Mike Cirba,

Here is John Ward playing at NGLA. 



The photo was published in October of 1909.     

Now can we stop this nonsense?


« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 03:34:05 AM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #387 on: September 04, 2008, 07:04:27 AM »
The illustrations in the May 1909 article in Scribners are some of the most striking golf history in my opinion. They clearly shows the course in all its glory - Redan, the Alps, the Sahara, the Home hole - being played over.

Mike
I'm still trying to figure out what point you're trying to make. Are you claiming that Macdonald was not that prominant in 1910 or the NGLA was little known in 1910 or both?


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #388 on: September 04, 2008, 07:56:30 AM »
"Perhaps, because it was an informal gathering of MacDonald's friends and not a formal tournament, IT WOULDN'T BE IN ONE SINGLE NEWSPAPER ACCOUNT !"

Patrick,

If the only play at NGLA at that time was just Macdonald playing a roughly-hewn, still being-built course that was about 75% completed in 1909 with a few of his closest friends, then please don't claim that the course had world-class influence by that time because it clearly didn't.

Mike,

First you repeatedly deny the existance of the event and now you make a WILD statement that they played a roughly hewn, still being built course that was about 75 % completed in 1909.

What concrete evidence do you have to support your wild contention ?

How do you know the state of the golf course at the time of the event, and event that you've repeatedly denied the existance of ?

If you didn't know about the event, how do you know the status of the golf course at the time of the event ?

What 25 % remained to be built ?

How was it roughly hewn ?

You've made these statements, now back them up with facts.

It's obvious that everything you type is agenda driven.


It was a highly anticipated offering, for certain, and there was a lot of excitement, but it wasn't yet a huge influencer of golf course design for one simple reason;

If ain't nobody seen or played it, then nobody could learn the lessons it taught.  ;)

We know that that's not true.

Many had seen it, and, they were prominent in the golfing world.
People like Travis and his peers.

And, in 1909 people played the golf course.
People who were prominent in the golfing world.



Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #389 on: September 04, 2008, 08:34:30 AM »
Kelly,

Thanks four answer and I understand how you feel. I think this ties into this thread because you would seem to be in the school of architects striking out in the opposite direction of using templates. Perhaps like Tilly and Ross 80-90 years ago, you can study and appreciate the work of Macdonald and Raynor, learn from it, and then design in your own style, which happens to be far different from Macdonald and Raynor.

But now I am  even more curious: wouldn't it be professionally challenging for you to build one?  Having explained your feelings about copying a Redan, you would have to overcome those feelings yet still build a good golf hole. And you have seen the original and been awed by it. Seems to me that it would cause you a few sleepless nights while you were building one!


Finally, you obviously build dogleg lefts and dogleg rights. Is it wrong to say that a Redan-style green complex (whether on a Par 3, 4 or 5) hole is simply another tried-and-tested basic tool available to any architect? You are not "pandering" when you build doglegs. Is it wrong to consider a Redan green complex as a staple?


Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #390 on: September 04, 2008, 08:45:58 AM »
Kelly,
Honestly, I didn't take it as a personal attack. What I was trying to say was I agreed that sometimes we are 'homers', but that doesn't necessarily mean we cannot respect the works of other architects and enjoy them for what they are.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

wsmorrison

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #391 on: September 04, 2008, 09:17:36 AM »
How Scotch golfers commented on the construction of the National course at Shinnecock Hills, from the NYT February 19, 1909

Glasgow-Golf courses as constructed in this country have, in a number of instances, appealed strongly to the humor of our leading golfers.  There recently appeared in one of the local papers an article regarding what American golfers are willing to do in order to get a course that will approach the ideal links.  It refers to the work which has been done on the course at Shinnecock, and says:

"Good progress, it seems, has been made with the construction of the American ideal course at Shinnecock, Long Island, and there is a prospect that it will be opened tentatively for play next June.  In the United States they believe that dollars can do almost anything, and as this curious project in golf course architecture is backed by a large millionaire element, no money will be spared in the attempt to do for Shinnecock what nature has done for some of the most famous courses in this country.  Already about $65,000 has been expended on the new course, which is to consist of 18 holes made as nearly as possible like 18 of the best holes on Scottish and English greens, among those selected for reproduction being the Alps at Prestwick, the famous short hole and "Road" hole at St. Andrews, and well known examples from North Berwick, Leven, Sunningdale, Sandwich and other noted greens.

Some golfers have questioned the possibility of the scheme ever becoming a success, but in the opinion of those interested golfers who have seen the course in progress of formation--the American ideal is going to turn out one of the two or three finest courses in existence.  We shall known by-and-by.  Certainly it was a novel notion to attempt the task of copying nature on so lavish a scale as to produce a golf course chockful of superlatives.  One would think that when the wonderful affair is completed it will present a terrible ordeal for the duffer, but perhaps it will be reserved only for the ideal golfer, in which case there would not be much danger of congestion occurring.

"Perhaps the next American experiment will take the form of an attempt to make a course from first to last like the classic Old Course of St. Andrews, but while the dollars would not be wanting for the work of construction, money could not buy the St. Andrews traditions, and without these and the golfing atmosphere so peculiar to the Auld Grey City a second Old Course would hardly be complete."


A January 3, 1909 NYT article mentioned that a group of Scotsman leased ground in Haworth, NJ (formerly the Haworth CC) to build a Scottish-American Golf Course with duplicates of famous holes from Scotch links.  The total yardage was to be 6019.  Was the course built?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #392 on: September 04, 2008, 09:35:37 AM »
That 1909 article from Scotland is a good example of the exposure the National project was getting throughout the world of golf.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #393 on: September 04, 2008, 10:31:45 AM »
My lord fellows...please relax! 

David...thanks for sharing that picture, and for Tom MacWood to cite Scribners and for Wayne to cite a 1909 article and other sharing of information.

See...that wasn't so bad, was it?   ;)

I'm simply trying to understand the early evolution of the golf course, who was playing it when, and how it evolved in the first couple of years in an effort to better understand it's possible influence on other architects and courses built around the same time.

Don't you think it's unusual that construction started in 1907 yet the course wasn' t formally opened until 1911, with a "trial run" invitational tournament in July 1910?

Yes, we know about the agronomic failure that set them back 18 months, but I think it's fair to say that by 1910 and certainly by 1911 it was starting to have a very direct influence in thinking of what was possible in US architecture, at least from an internal hole strategy standpoint.   I'm not sure that the routing was much of a lesson, as it was simple out and back as borrowed from abroad.

I do think agronomic issues probably existed for a time as the 1910 American Golfer article mentions that the course is still in pretty raw shape.   

I am just trying to figure out where things stood at a point in time.

That's all...thanks.

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #394 on: September 04, 2008, 11:07:43 AM »
"That 1909 article from Scotland is a good example of the exposure the National project was getting throughout the world of golf."


I don't think there's any doubt at all but that what Macdonald was doing with NGLA got an immense amount of attention and for a number of truly interesting reasons.

Those various OTHER reasons are probably what also need to be presented and discussed on here to do this era and NGLA and even the likes of Myopia (which preceded NGLA by almost ten years) historical justice.

To simply try to say that Macdonald was just this great golf architectural expert at that time unlike no other in America is not to do this era and others who were part of it historical justice.

The attention NGLA got and Macdonald too and very much through his own promotion had perhaps more to do with his contention that golf archtitecture in America was at a pretty miserable state in the over-all. NGLA was promoted and touted by him as an example of not just good golf architecture but how to make golf architecture in America so much better in the over-all. This is part of the reason Macdonald conceived of the idea of a "national" course with a national membership (which he also very much specifically promoted and worked on himself with his regional friends and acquaintenances). Macdonald was very much looking to the future of golf and architecture in America and I can and will provide his own statement to support that fact:

"All this is very true (I'll supply later what he was was referring to as 'very true' but for now he was referring to what was often called back the "The genius of locality") when it was written, but how about to-morrow? The birth of a nation creates a new soul. As we gaze back we will reverence the past, but it is to the future we must look."

What about Herbert Leeds of Myopia who had designed and created a really good American course and architecture almost ten years before NGLA? Was Leeds publicly promoting the future of better golf architecture in America and stating what came before him was rudimentary crap? Not at all---or not that I'm aware of. All Leeds was trying to do is create a really good golf course and architecture for his own club off a pretty basic nine hole course that preceded him and his Myopia efforts that lasted twenty and more years.

Then we all need to look very carefully at the dynamic that existed previous to NGLA with the way golf and architecture was preceived over here by Americans and over there by primarily the Scots and the so-called linksmen. To say that there was national pride and national defensiveness and national promotion from both sides would be a massive UNDERSTATEMENT, that's for sure.

Into this dynamic enter Macdonald in which he basically proclaimed most all golf courses over here to be crap (with his three exceptions of GCGC, Myopia and Chicago GC) he comes up with the novel idea to actually transport over here some really famous holes and their solid and fundamental architectural "principles", and not to just transport their basic architectural "principles" but also their well known names too.

To say this did not create huge interest as well as perhaps an equal amount of confusion and national competitiveness and defensiveness (which already very much existed anyway before Macdonald's idea) would be a massive misreading of the situation and its time.

Confusion and misunderstanding on both sides was certainly evident and we can most certainly read about it all from old news accounts. But of course there was perhaps an equal amount of interest in the idea, which again, was totally novel to that time and which some called visionary it was so novel. It seems what Macdonald did and would continue to do and which he was always so good at was to create an atmosphere of "controversy" (don't forget he did say ultimately that "controversy" may be at the very heart of great golf course architecture!  ;)

But the point and question for us, at least for me, is---did Macdonald's ideas for basic architectural "principle" copying from abroad or actual hole and name copying from abroad carry through into the future of American architecture as he may've perceived it or felt it should?

It did to some extent but I doubt it did even close to the way he may've visualized it, and that of course is the real story of the evolution of American golf course architecture apart from and in comparison to Macdonald's so-called "National School" style.

And then there is that question about whether Macdonald was the first over here to understand really good architectural ideas or principles? To say that would be to completely miss the fact of a Herbert Leeds who preceded Macdonald by close to a decade. And not just that but one needs to deal with the question of whether Myopia's architecture looks anything like or plays anything like Macdonald's National School style? Maybe just a little bit but not much, in my opinion, and the reason probably is Leeds preceded Macdonald and his NGLA style ideas.

To me perhaps the most interesting question of all is where Leeds developed his own ideas on golf architecture. I think I can pretty much guarantee one thing----he definitely didn't learn them from one Willie Campbell.

To find that answer truly interesting question (since Leeds seems to be the first to produce something really good over here) one needs to look at Leeds himself, his own life, his other interests and where he had been both previous to and during his creation of Myopia!





 
« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 11:21:18 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #395 on: September 04, 2008, 11:10:51 AM »

I'm simply trying to understand the early evolution of the golf course, who was playing it when, and how it evolved in the first couple of years in an effort to better understand it's possible influence on other architects and courses built around the same time.

Whatever you say.

Don't you think it's unusual that construction started in 1907 yet the course wasn' t formally opened until 1911, with a "trial run" invitational tournament in July 1910?

Unusual yes, but not unprecidented, Pine Valley took even longer. It would have something to do with the scale and the scope of the projects, and the challenging sites chosen.

Yes, we know about the agronomic failure that set them back 18 months, but I think it's fair to say that by 1910 and certainly by 1911 it was starting to have a very direct influence in thinking of what was possible in US architecture, at least from an internal hole strategy standpoint.   I'm not sure that the routing was much of a lesson, as it was simple out and back as borrowed from abroad.

The numerous articles in American and British magazines and newspapers - by Macdonald and about Macdonalds & his ideal golf course - dating back to at least 1906, if not earlier, no doubt captured the imagination of golfers every where. I believe the NGLA project in the US, and similar high profile projects in the UK like Princes, the redesign of TOC, the redesign of Westward Ho!, and the numerous new heathland courses, generated a lot of interest in golf architecture generally. I have not seen much evidence of interest in agronomic issues beyond the insiders.

The other high profile project in America would be the redesign of GCGC, which followed Travis's famous critique of the course.


I do think agronomic issues probably existed for a time as the 1910 American Golfer article mentions that the course is still in pretty raw shape.   

I am just trying to figure out where things stood at a point in time.

That's all...thanks.

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #396 on: September 04, 2008, 11:53:37 AM »
"Don't you think it's unusual that construction started in 1907 yet the course wasn' t formally opened until 1911, with a "trial run" invitational tournament in July 1910?"


MikeC:

I don't think the question of when NGLA actually formally opened for play is the real question here or the point (of course we do know from Macdonald himself NGLA formally opened for constant play in Sept, 1911).

What is far more interesting, I think, at least to me, is whether any or even all of these famous so-called "amateur/sportsmen" architects  that included the likes of Leeds, Emmet, Fownes, Macdonald, Wilson, Crump etc all of whom had those so-called "special" projects, understood going into them that they both should and would spend the many, many years on them that all of them did?

That is the most interesting question of all to me because the answer to it really can tell us so much about golf course architecture and what it may take to do it as well as it can be done.

Tihs might be evidence of the answer to that question:

"A first class course can only be made in time. It must develop. The proper distance between holes, the shrewd placing of bunkers and other hazards, the perfecting of putting greens, all must be evolved by a process of growth and it requires study and patience."

C.B. Macdonald said that and he included it in his book "Scotland's Gift Golf" that was published in 1928.

But I think the most salient thing of all about that statement of his, is he did not say it retrospectively, he claims in his book that he wrote that statement in an article that was published in December 1897!!

The next most interesting question is was that idea that a massive amount of time would be needed to build and improve these types of courses and architecture his own or did he get it from someone else. Another question is----was he the first to do it that way?

Apparently not, again it seems Myopia's Herbert Leeds was almost ten years ahead of him and both the Fownes and perhaps Emmet were some years ahead of him with that method and modus operandi too.



By the way, Mr. MacWood, Pine Valley did not set a precedent for the longterm creation and development method of NGLA for the simple reason PV came after NGLA. But a few others probably did like GCGC, Myopia and Oakmont, all of which seemed to use that extended development method and came before NGLA. It would be pretty illogical to say that Macdonald did not see that and wasn't aware of them and that methodology.

The real question to me, though, is did any or even all of them realize when they began that they would be at those special projects that made them all famous for as many years as they all took with them?

Perhaps another couple of ideas that most seem to miss that Macdonald might have pioneered himself, though, were the ideas of creating a course via a committee and also creating a course by permanently bringing a professional engineer on board first. Is this why MCC put a professional engineer onto the Wilson Committee or even why Flynn eventually picked an engineer as his permanent partner?

« Last Edit: September 04, 2008, 03:46:06 PM by TEPaul »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #397 on: September 04, 2008, 07:44:03 PM »
How Scotch golfers commented on the construction of the National course at Shinnecock Hills, from the NYT February 19, 1909 . . . .

The American artlcle was dated Feb 19, 1909.  Does it provide the date of the Glasgow article it is reciting?

Quote
A January 3, 1909 NYT article mentioned that a group of Scotsman leased ground in Haworth, NJ (formerly the Haworth CC) to build a Scottish-American Golf Course with duplicates of famous holes from Scotch links.  The total yardage was to be 6019.  Was the course built?

The club was actually a combination of the Haworth Club and the Scottish Golf Club.

One of the movers behind the plan was
How Scotch golfers commented on the construction of the National course at Shinnecock Hills, from the NYT February 19, 1909 . . . .

The American artlcle was dated Feb 19, 1909.  Does it provide the date of the Glasgow article it is reciting?

[/quote]A January 3, 1909 NYT article mentioned that a group of Scotsman leased ground in Haworth, NJ (formerly the Haworth CC) to build a Scottish-American Golf Course with duplicates of famous holes from Scotch links.  The total yardage was to be 6019.  Was the course built?
[/quote]

The club was actually a combination of the Haworth Club and the Scottish Golf Club.

Other articles emphasize that the club will be imitating many Scottish Clubs not so much in terms of golf holes, but rather in terms of atmosphere and egalitarianism.  In other words, they planned to structure membership and fees so that a broader range of people could enjoy the course.

Did you notice who one of the driving forces behind the club was Herreshoff, a friend of Macdonald's from NGLA who, according to Macdonald, was playing the course in 1909?

_________________________________________

TEPaul,

You've claimed that Leeds was about 10 years ahead of Macdonald.    Wasn't Macdonald designing courses in Chicago before Leeds was even a member of Myopia?

You also state unequivicolly that you know for certain that Leeds was not influenced by Willie Campbell.   How do you know this for certain?   Isn't it at least possible that Leeds was influenced by Campbell?   
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #398 on: September 04, 2008, 08:07:42 PM »
Wayno,

Old friends of mine, contemporaries of my dad owned Haworth Golf Club.

Unfortunately, both have passed away.

I'll try to see what I can find from others who knew them.


wsmorrison

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #399 on: September 04, 2008, 08:42:07 PM »
Thanks, Pat.  I hope that if you find out anything, you'll come down here to show it to me.

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