It is impossible to have any sort of conversation here. No one will give an inch, no matter how absurd their position. I wish a long lost relative of CBM (or at least zealous supporter of all he ever did) would show up and unreasonably stand his ground despite the facts just so he could be on equal footing.
Phillip,
I agree that Tillinghast turned out to be a terrific designer and was a major force in gca in America. As you say, within a few years after Shawnee he was a design muckity-muck. But he wasnt in 1906-1907 when just idea of NGLA was already being covered on two continents. He wasn't in 1909, when they started golfing at NGLA. He wasnt in in 1911 when, with the completion of the clubhouse, NGLA was "formally" opened.
Shawnee and NGLA were not designed and built "at the same time." NGLA was designed and built first, and they were golfing on NGLA before AWT started building Shawnee. Surely in 1909 and 1910 Tillie was considering more than just the contours of the ground around Shawnee. He of all people was not living in a design vacuum.
It is imprecise and innacurate just to expand the dates to your liking then say they were all equally responsible for the change in direction of golf in the US. There was a chronology, and you are mis-using the "formal" opening date of NGLA to blur that chronology and make it appear that Tillie and Macdonald were doing their thing at the exact same time, as you do when you write . . .
. . . The question then is, was the design of Shawnee influenced by Macdonald and NGLA?
Besides the obvious answer being that it would have been pretty near impossible for it to have for the simple fact that it was designed and built at the same time and officially opened some 4 months before the NGLA, consider Tilly's own words on the matter.
It was not "pretty near impossible." NGLA was designed and built (not successfully grown in, but built) before Tillie did a thing at Shawnee. You can't just pretend that they were simultaneous events based on the "formal" opening date.
I asked you twice when NGLA became influential in golf design. You did not answer but instead asked me questions about Oakmont.
When did NGLA first become influential in golf design? Before or after Tillinghast built Shawnee?
You state "I DO KNOW that whenever [AWT] first played it there was no impact upon his design philosophies in the least…"
Such a thing would be impossible for you to "KNOW" unless you were Tillie, and maybe even impossible then. You are not Tillinghast. You don't know.
As I should realize more around this nut-house, oftentimes we are more influenced by our adversaries than our allies. This is especially true when like Tillie one is trying to create an independent name for himself. But whether he knew it or not Tillie owed CBM bigtime. They all did.
And if you think that Tillie and CBM were really that far apart in their views in this very early period, then I suggest you don't understand CBM as well as you apparently think you do.
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Mike Cirba,
I don't care who was golfing at NGLA in 1909. My understanding of the historical record is that Macdonald and others were golfing on NGLA's course in 1909. Surely I can reasonably come to this understanding without having to produce scorecards for you. Try Macdonald's own book, for example. Or his other writings on the subject. Or Bahto's book.
You ask if Bahto's book is wrong? Not where he says they were golfing at NGLA in 1909. There were plenty of reviews of NGLA prior to its "formal opening." You've even posted at least one of them.
As for the 14th month wait before the "formal opening" of the club, my understanding is that the club was not formally opened until the clubhouse was completed. But the golf course had been around for a few years before then.
Besides, what is your point? You seem to be denying that he course and designer were hugely influential before the "formal" opening of the club. Such a denial is untenable.
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TEPaul,
You are wrong about the timing and impetus for the work at Myopia. Just read the source material.
As for NGLA, Macdonald was in contact with Hutchinson, receiving advice throughout. Not just at the 1910 visit. They were playing on the course in 1909 and in 1910. Revisions were already being made. But you act as if it was still under major construction. This is not the case.