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DMoriarty

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Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #325 on: September 03, 2008, 12:26:00 AM »

Might I suggest that maybe CB got his dates and names confused when he dictated "Scotland's Gift" many years after the fact.  Examples of this replete in the genre.

Rich

Rich,

No doubt Scotland's Gift had the wrong date for Ward's excellent round.   But other than the inclusion of Ward's excellent round in both, the 1910 tournament sounds little or nothing like the 1909 tournament, as described in Scotland's gift.   Isn't it more likely that Macdonald simply confused in which of the two tourneys Ward shot his great round.  This would have been a simple mistake to make if CBM's record's did not show stroke scores for the match play.

Otherwise, CBM not only had the date wrong but also the winners, runners up, and even the participants. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #326 on: September 03, 2008, 03:33:58 AM »
I think the matter rests between Bill B and Peter P.  CBM was hugely influential with the idea of building an ideal course based on tested and accepted design principles.  CBM was also hugely influential in that he raised the quality bar of courses (and redesign work) which followed.  While CBM was terribly influential, he wasn't the only guy on the block peddling good ideas.  Leeds knew the score and from my perspective, I don't quite understand why the debate takes an American viewpoint.  It is clear that what was happening on both sides of the pond was known and commented on.  It is also clear that CBM was part of the "good design/sound principles debate which was happening on both sides of the pond, but it seems mainly in the UK until CBM takes the bull by the horns.  Given this, why divide design philosophy/theory by country?  This seems a strange tendency imo, especially as we, or more accurately they, are talking about the same ideas.  On a further note, Peter P seems to be asking what were these ideas - was there a concensus which could describe/explain the concepts? 

What isn't clear, is how influential CBM was with his style of architecture.  Wayne seems to think that after a relatively short period of time, CBM's influence waned, basically with the arrival second wave of archies, which tended to be of the professional ilk and from the so called Philly School (is Shack was clever he would have called it the Philly Schuyl). 

Does this sound about right as a summary? 

All the nonsense about NGLA dates and other stuff, is interesting, but fluff.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #327 on: September 03, 2008, 08:13:41 AM »

Might I suggest that maybe CB got his dates and names confused when he dictated "Scotland's Gift" many years after the fact.  Examples of this replete in the genre.

Rich

Rich,

No doubt Scotland's Gift had the wrong date for Ward's excellent round.   But other than the inclusion of Ward's excellent round in both, the 1910 tournament sounds little or nothing like the 1909 tournament, as described in Scotland's gift.   Isn't it more likely that Macdonald simply confused in which of the two tourneys Ward shot his great round.  This would have been a simple mistake to make if CBM's record's did not show stroke scores for the match play.

Otherwise, CBM not only had the date wrong but also the winners, runners up, and even the participants. 

Rich brings up a good point about incorrect dates. Its not all that uncommon to find a date or two wrong in these memoirs or rememberances written several years later. If you have one date in a book or letter written several years after the fact and a different date in contemporaneous newspaper or magazine article which do you give more weight? I would go with the contemporaneous report.

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #328 on: September 03, 2008, 08:44:51 AM »
Tom MacWood,

If I read you correctly, you're agreeing that NGLA's first tournament was in 1910, correct?

I would go with the contemporaneous report as well, particularly as the article in American Golfer makes very clear that the course is just opening...that things are a little rough yet...that all of the holes are grand experiments and almost all of them work...it clearly sounds like a grand unveiling.

I'm not sure why Macdonald would have held this tournament in 1910 inviting top players to see the course and comment on the holes if he'd already done it in 1909.

Besides,  I have not found a single 1909 article from any source that talks about either the course being open or a tournament taking place.   Have you come across anything?   

Given Macdonald's penchant for making news, I would be surprised if this 1910 tournament wasn't the inaugural.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #329 on: September 03, 2008, 08:54:46 AM »
Mike
I haven't been following the controversay about 1909 and 1910 tournament, so my answer would be I have no idea either way. And for me its really not that important, I know for a fact they were playing golf at the NGLA in 1909...so I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make. Are you still trying to make the case Macdonald & Whigham were not qualified to help at Merion?

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #330 on: September 03, 2008, 08:58:19 AM »
Sean,

I did not intentionally try to "Americanize" the discussion but I just don't know enough about UK courses, their architects and UK history to broaden the debate. So in responding to the original thread: why does Macdonal get a pass repeating, I have to respond with the knowledge base that I have: US courses and US history.

But I would be very interested to learn if Macdonald had a big impact on gca in the UK. If you agree that Macdonald's work and words spurred on Tilly, Ross and others, do you think he changed what was happening on the ground in the UK? Or was it already happening?

Or a broader question, did the explosion of new golf courses in the US in the first part of the 20th century have an impact on UK gca?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #331 on: September 03, 2008, 09:03:30 AM »
Mike
I haven't been following the controversay about 1909 and 1910 tournament, so my answer would be I have no idea either way. And for me its really not that important, I know for a fact they were playing golf at the NGLA in 1909...so I'm not sure what the point you're trying to make. Are you still trying to make the case Macdonald & Whigham were not qualified to help at Merion?

C'mon Tom...that's not an answer and I know you have intellectual curiosity about this.

I've asked repeatedly and I'm still left wondering.   WHO was playing golf at NGLA in 1909?   If you know that they were playing golf in 1909, can you tell us your source and who they were?

My point is simply trying to determine what impact NGLA might of had on who, when, and where.   

A year's worth of activity is significant in those nascent moments of what would become the Golden Age.   Surely you would understand that more than most.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #332 on: September 03, 2008, 09:21:29 AM »
Honestly I have no interest. They were playing golf at NGLA in 1909, so what's the point.

I've never quite understood your reasoning for trying to diminish the qualifications of Barker and M&W. Clearly the braintrust at Merion thought they were highly qualified...and I couldn't agree more with their assessment.

It seems to me you trying to make the case your wife is ugly or stupid or both. Who does that reflect on?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #333 on: September 03, 2008, 09:34:24 AM »
Honestly I have no interest. They were playing golf at NGLA in 1909, so what's the point.

I've never quite understood your reasoning for trying to diminish the qualifications of Barker and M&W. Clearly the braintrust at Merion thought they were highly qualified...and I couldn't agree more with their assessment.

It seems to me you trying to make the case your wife is ugly or stupid or both. Who does that reflect on?

Tom,

CB Macdonald was a wonderful, great, awesome, sublime, prophetic, pioneering, almost divine architect, so these repeated attempts to tell the world that I'm trying to diminish his qualifications are flaccid and misguided.

I just want to know WHEN his influence began to take hold, and with WHO.   

If you (or anyone else) have no real evidence that golf was played at NGLA before 1910 and the inaugural Invitational tournament that American Golfer covered and George Bahto's book details,  then just as you said...I'll agree with your recommendation and hold onto the belief that the contemporaneous account that I've linked to here is the correct one, and golf was first played there on a larger scale (beyond the development committee) in July 1910. 

That seems reasonable and likely given that Travis, Hutchinson, and Darwin all wrote their NGLA articles in 1910.


As far as the influence of Barker, please explain to me why we should hold him in reverence above others who did "18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon" at that time such as Dunn, Bendelow, and even Findlay in those early years.

Certainly, it seems very little of his work survived, and it also seems that besides those few clubs where he worked as Professional, his architectural work between 1910-15 covered a large geographical area which also makes clear that much of his work was either paper jobs or quick one-day visits/routings, given that during that whole time he was employed by other clubs as their golf professional.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 10:11:59 AM by MikeCirba »

wsmorrison

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #334 on: September 03, 2008, 10:22:53 AM »
Kelly,

Thank you for your post #335.  There's a lot there to digest.

I had exactly the same feeling when I first saw the Redan at North Berwick.  On my second visit, it was still awe inspiring, as is much of the course.

While many heap acclaim on Macdonald, with most of it justified, I think the inspirations from the UK merit most of the acclaim as regards conceptual inspirations for Macdonald.  I would have a higher regard for Macdonald, Raynor and Banks if they weren't so easily defined.  Art and architecture should not be so narrowly compartmentalized.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #335 on: September 03, 2008, 10:41:14 AM »
Honestly I have no interest. They were playing golf at NGLA in 1909, so what's the point.

I've never quite understood your reasoning for trying to diminish the qualifications of Barker and M&W. Clearly the braintrust at Merion thought they were highly qualified...and I couldn't agree more with their assessment.

It seems to me you trying to make the case your wife is ugly or stupid or both. Who does that reflect on?

Tom,

CB Macdonald was a wonderful, great, awesome, sublime, prophetic, pioneering, almost divine architect, so these repeated attempts to tell the world that I'm trying to diminish his qualifications are flaccid and misguided.

I just want to know WHEN his influence began to take hold, and with WHO.   

I take it you are not convinced the powers that be at Merion were too sharp when they engaged Macdonald & Whigham.

If you (or anyone else) have no real evidence that golf was played at NGLA before 1910 and the inaugural Invitational tournament that American Golfer covered and George Bahto's book details,  then just as you said...I'll agree with your recommendation and hold onto the belief that the contemporaneous account that I've linked to here is the correct one, and golf was first played there on a larger scale (beyond the development committee) in July 1910. 

You don't consider photographic evidence of golfers playing over the NGLA in 1909 evidence?

That seems reasonable and likely given that Travis, Hutchinson, and Darwin all wrote their NGLA articles in 1910.


As far as the influence of Barker, please explain to me why we should hold him in reverence above others who did "18 stakes on a Sunday afternoon" at that time such as Dunn, Bendelow, and even Findlay in those early years.

Anyone who had played courses like Mayfield, Columbia and Druid Hills realizes Barker was much more than 18 stakes on a Sunday. Trying to make that case does not do your credibility much good with those of us who appreciate his work. But its free country, you have every right to present yourself as a dumb dumb.

Certainly, it seems very little of his work survived, and it also seems that besides those few clubs where he worked as Professional, his architectural work between 1910-15 covered a large geographical area which also makes clear that much of his work was either paper jobs or quick one-day visits/routings, given that during that whole time he was employed by other clubs as their golf professional.

Interesting speculation.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #336 on: September 03, 2008, 10:48:43 AM »

The American Golfer article of August 1910 makes it clear that John Ward shot 74, not in any qualifying round, but in his 1st round of match play, beating the medallist, our own Maxie Behr! 

That was in the July, 1910 tournament, NOT the 1909 Tournament.


Ward went out (in, today) in 42 and back (out, today) in 32!  He started the back nine with a 2 at today's 1st.  The article makes it clear that this was a new course record, so it seems very unlikely that he also shot a 74 at some gathering in 1909.

MacDonald is quite clear and devotes an entire page to the 1909 event.

I doubt he had a senior moment and doubled up on the events.


Might I suggest that maybe CB got his dates and names confused when he dictated "Scotland's Gift" many years after the fact.  Examples of this replete in the genre.

You might, but, it's more likely that the article got the dates wrong.
Examples of this are replete in the genre.
;D

« Last Edit: September 03, 2008, 10:57:53 AM by Patrick_Mucci »

Jim_Kennedy

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Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #337 on: September 03, 2008, 10:51:19 AM »
Quote
Now, one could argue that the duplicates exceed the original in strategy, but I think only someone who has played both several times can make such a case....
Kelly,
I wholeheartedly agree with both halves of this sentence....
Quote
...and even then you must temper their remarks with the fact that the basis of their arguments lie with favoritism, or I believe the term may be provincialism.
....but I don't understand why, if it's possible to argue that the 'duplicates' exceed (or even just equal) the originals in strategy, that argument is provincial. Can no one be objective and come to that conclusion?
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #338 on: September 03, 2008, 10:53:40 AM »
Kelly,

I have not yet played the original but it is definitely on my to do list...

I will grant you that in terms of creating that awe inspiring feeling you describe, nothing can compare to an original.

But Macdonald's work certainly bolstered the importance of the original. By repeating the original's design concepts, he made the original famous. (Or more famous, I don't know if the hole was considered "famous" in 1908.)

You say that you played many Macdonald and Raynor courses before going to North Berwick. So I'll guess you played 10-20 different Redan versions before you played the original. It is perfectly natural to "be blown away" when you finally played the original. But Macdonald helped build that drama for you, he set the stage. And in doing so, he made North Berwick's Redan a better experience for you.

This gets to the gist of Macdonald's genius. I'll let some "take points off" for a lack of originality but what he did was to accurately understand what FEATURES make for great golf holes. He captured all those features and put them on one golf course and changed the game.

The fact that he "borrowed" these design concepts does not bother me in the least. In fact, as a student of history, I find it incredibly cool that I can trace so many American golf holes back to their original roots. That adds great texture to the game of golf.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #339 on: September 03, 2008, 10:53:55 AM »
"Might I suggest that maybe CB got his dates and names confused when he dictated "Scotland's Gift" many years after the fact.  Examples of this replete in the genre.

Rich:

You might indeed suggest such a thing, and it is probably extremely commonsensical. But if you are asking Patrick that question--no way in Hell will he concede a point like that---not because it might be true or commonsensical but because he thinks it might prove him wrong and I think we all know in his mind admitting such a thing or conceding such a thing as the possiblilty that he might be wrong is unimaginable!


TEPaul,

How do you account for the different results in the matches ?

Did they replay the matches because they didn't like the results ?

It's clear that two SEPERATE Tournaments took place.
One, an informal gathering of MacDonald's friends in 1909 and the other a formal INVITATIONAL in 1910.

The record is clear, you just don't want to accept the facts.

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #340 on: September 03, 2008, 10:59:02 AM »
"Did they replay the matches because they didn't like the results ?"

No, Macdonald only did that for the National Championship  ;D

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #341 on: September 03, 2008, 11:02:16 AM »
Mike Cirba & TEPaul,

With respect to the 1909 and 1910 tournaments,
How do you account for the fact that the field, matches, winners and runner's up were different ?

I'm anxious to hear your explanation.

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #342 on: September 03, 2008, 11:16:37 AM »
Kelly:

Your last post is a very good one---as usual, and for a number of reasons. One of those reasons is that you expressed a sentiment in your first paragraph that was very much expressed when Macdonald himself was talking about the entire concept of using the best features of holes from abroad in the making of his NGLA, or even in what he probably felt should be done with American architecture (I'll get into more of that later with a quote from his book and such).

But another reason your post is a good one is because you express again your obviously strong sentiment that golf architects and golf architecture should keep on stretching for some fresh and effective ideas now and into the future.

In that vein, the thing I've always liked about your attitude and approach to golf architecture is that you mention this constant search for new and interesting ideas to apply while never really identifying what they might be. To me this just exemplifies the fact that you really are on that constant search and have not arrived at any final destination or goal in that search. Perhaps there isn't one, and perhaps that's your very point----it's the search that's the real deal because it gets away from ever settling for some standardization, style or perhaps even principle.

But if one really tries to do that---to do what you may be doing in that vein, I should ask, where in the world are you looking? In how many places, contexts, philosophies etc?

Last night I was speaking to Peter Pallota on the phone, and in the course of that conversation we both agreed there are probably just layers and layers, and other layers upon other layers if one really does consider golf and golfers and golf course architecture altogether somehow.

What could possibly come out of trying to consider all these things together if one is actually looking to find or take something truly positive from it? That is a good question, indeed, don't you think? It just may be the everlasting riddle in all of golf and golf course architecture.

I think there may be an answer, and a pretty good one and it was a concept that Macdonald himself articulated a number of times. Unfortunately, his answer and concept, which was agreed with and also articulated by a few others who were arguably the best architects of his times, such as Mackenzie, probably does seem to be something of an nonanswer to many golfers and golf architecture analysts, and golf architects.

That answer and concept was of course the concept and idea of "controversy" or what they apparently looked at as "beneficial controversy." It's effect and result was supposed to be that something really good should be and must be hotly contested and apparently always. Consensus of opinion seemed to be anathema to them, including something that everyone felt was good.

Isn't it just amazing that they felt that if everyone agreed that something was good, that there must be something wrong with it---that it was actually lacking interest because there was consensus of opinion about it?

Apparently to some of those guys controversy actually equalled interest, that real interest has to amount to what is controversial in the end and in the final analyis.

But in some sense it seems that Macdonald was contradicting himself in this way if he truly approved of using even the best of known and recognizable features from abroad.

But what may be a really important distinction in what Macdonald meant in that vein has just occured to me, which might help explain what he was thinking. He may've meant the known and recognizable features from abroad were not necessarily things he should actually make in his architecture but merely search for in the way of natural landforms on various sites. But knowing his architecture as I do I can tell that is not exactly what he did, and Piping Rock's redan---in my opinion one of the best playing redans in the world----was certainly not wholly natural----he definitely had to make a lot of it and it definitely shows.

I'm drifting around here but on another post I want to get back to your constant search for fresh and interesting ideas.


TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #343 on: September 03, 2008, 11:21:54 AM »
"TEPaul,

How do you account for the different results in the matches ?

Did they replay the matches because they didn't like the results ?"



Pat:

Basically, I'm not trying to account for the different results in the matches because I can't really see the importance in any of it, but you are.  ;)

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #344 on: September 03, 2008, 11:24:33 AM »
Tom MacWood,

Why is Columbia listed as being designed by Walter Travis?   How much of Mayfield was Bert Way's efforts?   How much of Barker is left at Druid Hills?

What pictures of golf at NGLA in 1909 are you referring to?   Who was playing there in 1909?

I think Merion was very wise to bring M&W in to view their proposed property and help them select the best of their five routings.  They clearly referred to the fact that M&W had made a great study of course building.    Macdonald was also the most famous golfer in America at the time and having him involved with their new course, especially with the proposed real-estate component, certainly was also a vehicle for adding lustre to sales efforts.   A better question is why wouldn't they have sought his advice if they were able to obtain him?

Patrick,

It's unlikely that the entire issue of American Golfer, August 1910 is incorrectly dated.   ;)

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #345 on: September 03, 2008, 11:27:09 AM »
"Kelly,
I have not yet played the original but it is definitely on my to do list..."


BillB:

I have, and I can tell you there's definitely a lot about it and with it that is different and looks different from all the other redans done over here. However, there are about three basic similarities, at least, that probably do constitute what may be considered the basic "principles" of the redan hole or green.

TEPaul

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #346 on: September 03, 2008, 11:31:30 AM »
"How much of Mayfield was Bert Way's efforts?"


Mike Cirba:

Tom MacWood has allowed on another thread on here some time ago that Barker designed Mayfield and Bert Way who was the pro there for many years and had been the pro at the club's former course, which Way designed, only constructed Mayfield to Barker's design.

Of course, as he almost always does on here, Tom MacWood offered no actual evidence at all for why he said that.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #347 on: September 03, 2008, 11:32:29 AM »
There are few courses in my experience that have elicited a more powerful emotional response than the NGLA, Yale and Fishers Island. Regarding the importance of comparing these 'copies' to the original I'm not quite sure what the 4th at Fishers Island is a copy of or is based upon (Alps? Punchbowl?)...all I know is there isn't hole in the world quite like it. If an emotional response is the measurement of a great course, the sum of the emotional responses at the NGLA is hard to beat.  

Mike_Cirba

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #348 on: September 03, 2008, 11:33:54 AM »
"How much of Mayfield was Bert Way's efforts?"


Mike Cirba:

Tom MacWood has allowed on another thread on here some time ago that Barker designed Mayfield and Bert Way who was the pro there for many years and had been the pro at the club's former course, which Way designed, only constructed Mayfield to Barker's design.

Of course, as he almost always does on here, Tom MacWood offered no actual evidence at all for why he said that.

Tom,

That must be why the club advertises themselves as a Bert Way designed course.   I'm sure it was all the unknown genius of HH Barker.

Another of those foolish clubs, evidently.   ::) ;)

wsmorrison

Re: Why do we go easy on MacDonald and Raynor?
« Reply #349 on: September 03, 2008, 11:39:40 AM »
"Kelly,
I have not yet played the original but it is definitely on my to do list..."


BillB:

I have, and I can tell you there's definitely a lot about it and with it that is different and looks different from all the other redans done over here. However, there are about three basic similarities, at least, that probably do constitute what may be considered the basic "principles" of the redan hole or green.


Tom, sorry to put you on the spot here, but what similarities between the original and Macdonald's Redan holes do you see on the 3rd at Merion East?  That is besides grass, sand and a hole  ;)