A Bernardo requirement for a course to count as great: great 17th hole

[Mark Bourgeois]

Not sure if this topic will go anywhere but thanks to the FAA at least some of us have time to ponder!

Darwin wrote every great course must have a great 17th hole. He was thinking in match play terms but I agree.

We have probably covered this plenty of times - blast that new and improved search engine! - how bout another go round anyway?

Thinking about great 17s on *great* courses - again, Darwin is writing about great courses having great 17s  - I notice many of my favorites play as 4.5s.

In fact, the only par 3 17th that comes to mind immediately as a favorite is Ganton. This is the exception that proves the rule, though, for as those familiar with the hole can attest, calling it a 3 is a cruel joke.

Does anyone else feel great 17th holes are best when they are par 4.5s? (BTW, 4.5 here is meant to include hard par 4s and is not meant necessarily as gambling par 5s.)

Some favorites on great courses:
TOC
RM West (closer to a 4 than a 4.5)
RM East
Ailsa
Prairie Dunes
Ganton
Cascades
How about MacKenzie's NLE 17th on ANGC? It seems to be getting closer and closer to a 4.5 in The Masters. (FYI this hole is the current 8th.)

Let's expand it a little now so more can participate. What are great 17s on good courses? What in your opinion make them great?

A few favorites from this class - interestingly there appear a fair number of 4.5s in here:
Ravenstein Old
St Andrews Beach
Congressional Blue (NLE)
Seaton Carew
Fanling
Royal New Kent

Now to take Darwin head on. What great courses have less than great 17s?

Here are my nominees - interestingly both are 3s:
Rye
Pebble

Mark

[Tony_Muldoon]

Now to take Darwin head on. What great courses have less than great 17s?

Here are my nominees - interestingly both are 3s:
Rye
Pebble

Mark

Portrush Par 5
 and  Par 3's, (possibly) The Addington   (definitely) Walton Heath old.

[Bob_Huntley]

Now to take Darwin head on. What great courses have less than great 17s?

Here are my nominees - interestingly both are 3s:
Rye
Pebble

Mark

Mark,

But what is quite remarkable is that the most remembered shots in the history of the US Open at Pebble Beach, came at the 17th,

Nicklaus' long iron to within a foot of the hole in'72 and Watson's chip in at the event in '82.

Bob

[Anthony Fowler]

I really like the 17th at Bethpage.  The hole is great, and its positioning as the 17th may prove to be very exciting in future U.S. Opens.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Bob

I know we've had this discussion re Pebble 17 on the site before. All I will say is, if we got to play it from the TV tower at least we could see something from the tee.

And I was hoping you'd chip in CPC. A description of the hole was where I came across the Darwin quote.

Mark

[Mark Bourgeois]

Anthony

I considered BB 17 and while I like the hole, I am finding it difficult to accept a 3 in the 17 hole as "great." To me it's like asking about great openers that are 3s.

Tony, Addington is the one that could get me past the idee fixe. That's a strong hole.

Mark

[JESII]

Merion's par 3 is a doozy.

Pine Valley's is nice, and a cool short par 4, but it might not be great.

Huntingdon Valley's 17th is very strong, and another par 3.



Let's explore the theory a little, if we could...why would #17 be such an important hole in match play? Why moreso than in medal play?

Why not #16?

[George Pazin]

Oakmont's is terrific. Don't just take my word for it, look at how it influenced the outcome of the '07 US Open.

Mark, I don't think anyone needs to nominate CP #17, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Good question. What's your answer?

EDIT: good call on Oakmont, George - put that one with Ganton on the short list of great 3.5s!

[Sean_A]

Mark

I think you unduly slight par 3s.  Big mistake imo.  Especially if we are talking matchplay where one stunning shot can turn the tide.  Plus, par 3s are less likely to involve the giving or taking of shots which is always a plus that late in the match.

Lets see, great 17ths on great courses.

Prestwick
Rosses Point
Dornoch
Woodhall Spa
Enniscrone
North Berwick
Merion



Great 17ths on very good courses

Brora - its an all world hole
Harlech
Burnham & Berrow
Swinley Forest
Wallasey
Littlestone


Ciao

[Mark Bourgeois]

JES

One reason could be less to do with earlier and more to do with later: matches finish before 18 so 17 becomes the new 18!

[Ken Moum]

Let's explore the theory a little, if we could...why would #17 be such an important hole in match play? Why moreso than in medal play?

Why not #16?

George Thomas suggested that most matches ended on 14, 15 or 16, which was why he said the 15th green should be close to the clubhouse.

That way you'd only have to walk one hole in after a match.

I agree with you.

Why not 16?

(FWIW, the 15th green is by the clubhouse on the Ross I play... and so is the 3rd, also suggested by Thomas.)

Ken

[Mark Bourgeois]

Now to take Darwin head on. What great courses have less than great 17s?

Here are my nominees - interestingly both are 3s:
Rye
Pebble

Mark

Mark,

But what is quite remarkable is that the most remembered shots in the history of the US Open at Pebble Beach, came at the 17th,

Nicklaus' long iron to within a foot of the hole in'72 and Watson's chip in at the event in '82.

Bob

Bob there's also the 17th at The Country Club, site of Ouimet's putt, although I think in Frost's book he moved the putt over to the 18th green. You know, for drama.

I think some other putt happened on the green, but I can't remember so it must not have meant much.

Is 17 TCC a great hole?

Mark

[Tony_Muldoon]

Mark

I think you unduly slight par 3s.  Big mistake imo.  Especially if we are talking matchplay where one stunning shot can turn the tide.  Plus, par 3s are less likely to involve the giving or taking of shots which is always a plus that late in the match.

Great 17ths on very good courses

Littlestone

Ciao

QED, a magnificent golf hole.

[Mark Bourgeois]

Sean doesn't it have to be a difficult par 3, the better to force a result?

Like the 17th at Ganton. That hole is incredible.

And can you remind me of Woodhall 17? I can't pull that memory up - funny though, 18 is clear as a bell.

Mark

[Sean_A]

Sean doesn't it have to be a difficult par 3, the better to force a result?

Like the 17th at Ganton. That hole is incredible.

And can you remind me of Woodhall 17? I can't pull that memory up - funny though, 18 is clear as a bell.

Mark

Mark

All the par 3s I listed could play terribly difficult in the right conditions, but none are pushovers in any conditions.  I spose I should have listed St Enodoc as well.  A cracking one shotter.  Royal Aberdeen's is very fine as well. 

Woodhall's 17th is a drivable par 4 at just over 330 yards (it was just a bit long for the best 330 yard par 4s, but I can't recall exactly) sliding gently left.  The real protection are the bunkers, three of which guard the front corners of the green.  I reckon its not really a smart play to go for the green unless the pin is up front.  If you get caught in one of those front bunkers the splash out to the hole can be mile and as we all know that is one of the toughest shots in golf.  On the other hand, laying up short of the right fairway bunker leaves a wedge in, but if the hole is located up front, it ain't an easy target. 

Ciao

[Mike Boehm]

A nominee outside the 4.5 category:  I think the 17th at Crystal Downs makes for a great match-play par 4 - short par 4, not much more than 300 yards.  Plenty of options off the tee, a chance to drive on or around the green while bringing the trees at worst or a difficult pitch at best into play.  Plus, anything can happen on or around that green.

[JMorgan]

Not mentioned/what of:

3's
Harbour Town, Kiawah, TPC Sawgrass
Troon
Shinnecock Hills

4s
Carnoustie
Kingsbarn
Portmarnock
Ballybunion
Sunningdale Old
Gullane
NGLA
Gleneagles
Oakmont


5s
Baltusrol
Muirfield
Melbourne

[BCrosby]

Mark -

The 17th at TCC is a good but not great hole.

Some other great 17th's are Muirfield, Western Gailes, Deal and Yale.

Bob

 

[Peter Pallotta]

JES -

from the little Darwin I've read, I'm not so sure his 17th hole rule has much to do with either stroke or match play. Not to say that he wasn't interested in competition, but I think for Darwin it was more about the joy of the game and the pleasure of the journey. The 17th holes is not the end, but it's the beginning of the end -- and that's where all the poignancy (memories and regrets) and the last bit of true hope and promise resides.

Needless to say, just a wild guess....

Peter

PS - off Robert's post below, that why I think the 17th at Sawgrass is a great hole for big time championship golf, but not so good for the "experience" of golf -- it's too abrupt and unforgiving. It's the difference between a girl saying "What are you thinking?" and saying "Prove it!"

[TX Golf]

A couple Par 3s of note.

17 at Whistling Straights is a great par 3.

I can't believe 17 at Sawgrass hasn't been mentioned yet. While very controversial, it is still extremely original and a great hole for tournament golf... probably better for match play than stroke play... but still a fun hole.

[Will MacEwen]

I think 17 at Bandon is one of the strongest holes on the course, although they have opened it up to the left recently, and also moved the tees up last time I played.