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Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
What makes a good shaper?
« on: August 26, 2008, 09:48:30 AM »
I'm starting this as it's own thread since my question got lost in the love fest for TL on the other thread.

There are a lot of shapers out there.   Certain architects employ there own and hold on to them.

What makes a good or great shaper?

Able to execute the architects ideas without lots of instruction?
Makes everything appear natural?

What is the criteria for evaluating a great shaper?

Carl Rogers

Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2008, 11:12:40 AM »
ot maybe???

at the risk of ??? are there any women in this field or is it just too physically demanding?

BVince

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2008, 11:22:28 AM »
ot maybe???

at the risk of ??? are there any women in this field or is it just too physically demanding?

way to threadjack....

Joel,

First, it depends on how much flexability the GCA allows the shaper to have.  The greater the trust, I bet the more freedom the shapers have to work with.

I would think that hard working, talented, motivated, ability to take criticism, understanding of the total design are all very desirable traits.  I have heard architects that make a shaper "re-do" a greensite because the shapers vision did not meet what he had in mind.  But hey, I just study architecture...
If profanity had an influence on the flight of the ball, the game of golf would be played far better than it is. - Horace Hutchinson

Ville Nurmi

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2008, 11:43:22 AM »
While ago there were pictures of new Mackenzie&Ebert course Goodwood  in Canada. Their shaper was a woman and the shaping sure looked good.

Best wishes,
Ville

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2008, 12:29:35 PM »
Joel,

good question, but I guess its all in the results.  Hard to describe in words.

Although some people think they carry on the "flask" style of design.  I am not too sure that drinking enhances shaping ability.

The best way I can describe it is that they can put little touches in with big bulldozers that can't be drawn on plans, or maybe even envisioned in the field.  They just have an eye for avoiding artifical looking mounds and ridges, etc.  I think in technical terms, its the vision to break up a constant slope with just a little "nick" that runs at odd angles.  "Average" shapers tend to follow green edges or add features related to the edge of greens and tees.  Great ones add them at more natural angles, if that makes sense.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2008, 12:56:27 PM »
So far no shapers have chimed in.  But, obviously Jeff has an archie's POV is good to have.   I wonder if any correlation to shapers brought up in interesting rural areas exists.  Or, farm kids who work on machines all the time, spring toothing or disk plowing, etc.  I wonder if despite agriculture cultivation smoothing out the interesting features, a certain feel for how the land rides is a leg up in the talent pool. 
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2008, 03:00:40 PM »
RJ,

Shapers come from everywhere.  I mean, no one is born a shaper.  Many get on golf jobs as part of the road crew, are given a chance, and show they can shape something.  I know I found one up in Nekoosa like that back in 1981. 

Another exampe is a local contractor hiring a young kid to run a loader here in Dallas years ago, just to put mix on the greens.  However, between loads, he saw what other shapers were doing and started doing a little clean up work and enhancement around the greens which was great.  It was clear early that he had talent and he went on to be a great shaper, and later foreman and then regional superintendent for a big company.  His whole life got changed just by being assigned to a golf job pushing sand on greens!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Carl Rogers

Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2008, 03:05:56 PM »
ot maybe???

at the risk of ??? are there any women in this field or is it just too physically demanding?

way to threadjack....

Joel,

First, it depends on how much flexability the GCA allows the shaper to have.  The greater the trust, I bet the more freedom the shapers have to work with.

I would think that hard working, talented, motivated, ability to take criticism, understanding of the total design are all very desirable traits.  I have heard architects that make a shaper "re-do" a greensite because the shapers vision did not meet what he had in mind.  But hey, I just study architecture...

I meant what I said.  Are there or have there ever been any women shapers?  Is it just too hard???

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2008, 03:09:20 PM »
While ago there were pictures of new Mackenzie&Ebert course Goodwood  in Canada. Their shaper was a woman and the shaping sure looked good.

Best wishes,
Ville


Peter Pallotta

Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2008, 03:11:39 PM »
Joel -

I've used this analogy before, and maybe it has some merit: I think good shapers are good improvisers. They take in and absorb the tune and the chord progression that nature and the architect has given them (i.e. the natural site and site surrounds, and the routing and design features) and then are able to improvise well enough within those parametres to make things sound (i.e. look) natural and fresh and exciting.

In other words, they're able to internalize the big shapes/arcs of the narrative so that they can pour out almost without thought the little shapes/embellishments that complete it

Peter     

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2008, 03:45:00 PM »
Peter:

To take your analogy a bit further, putting together a great construction team is like putting together a great band.  There is room for the individuals' personality to shine through in the music, but you don't need them all going off on their own solos.

The work is not physically demanding at all, but it takes a fair amount of practice to become any good at it, and you have to be willing to move from job to job at the whims of others, so very few women are in that side of the business ... in fact most women want nothing to do with men who want a lifestyle such as that, either!

More later.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2008, 05:22:52 PM »
Of course, it depends on what the architect wants.  Shapers basically fall into two camps -- those who are good at hitting grade stakes to build something to a plan, and those who work in 3-D based on their own ability and what the architect tells them he wants.

Some architects insist on the former because they draw meticulous plans, whether or not the plans result in a cool green.  Some architects just let a good shaper run free and edit his work.  Others like myself tend to work with the same guys, and we'll give them more or less instructions for a particular green based on whether we have a strong idea of what we want, or not. 

These days, about half the greens on my courses were actually designed by one of my associates on a bulldozer ... I just told them where to put it and what kind of shots to anticipate and what kind of recoveries there should be around the green, and then edited it, either right as they were building or on my next trip back.  The other half, I had a stronger idea of what I wanted, and wouldn't let them freelance much.  I would almost never do this if I was working with shapers from outside companies whom I did not know well or who hadn't seen many of the great courses I use as reference points ... most of my guys have been there, so if I tell them to build something like the sixth at National or the Dell at Lahinch, they understand the general idea.

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2008, 05:28:10 PM »
These days, about half the greens on my courses were actually designed by one of my associates on a bulldozer ... I just told them where to put it and what kind of shots to anticipate and what kind of recoveries there should be around the green, and then edited it, either right as they were building or on my next trip back.  The other half, I had a stronger idea of what I wanted, and wouldn't let them freelance much.

Any idea what tends to differentiate the two? The ground? Preconceived ideas? No common theme?
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2008, 05:35:30 PM »
George:

There are just some holes that, as soon as I've done the routing for them, I have a pretty good feeling for the kind of hole I want right down to the details of the green -- and in those cases, I'm not going to let one of the guys try something else.  But, there are other holes on which different parts of the hole were what got me interested in it, so maybe I haven't got as strong an idea about the green yet; and I leave some of those for the associates to take the first crack on, so they don't become bored.  One of the appeals of working with us is that a shaper has a chance of designing something that stays in the finished course, instead of just following directions -- that, plus the fact that we keep getting cool sites to build on.

Ray Richard

Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2008, 06:00:02 PM »
    A good shaper gets his technique and style from many areas. They must be good at generic dirt pushing but they also need to create rounded forms with a flat blade. They learn from history and field direction, but they need to sketch out ideas in the dirt. They are an important creative force but when the course opens nobody knows their name. They come from varied backgrounds—I knew one who is a former billiard champion and golf course owner who loves to play in the dirt. Another one is a Baptist preacher who gets mad when you slip a foul word in the conversation by mistake.
    A good shaper I know gets inspiration from clouds. I saw him sitting back in his seat looking at a few puffy nimbus clouds before he finished a bunker face. Another time we were stumped on a tee configuration and he looked down at my size 13 imprint and said, “build it that way", and we did. You should load them up with coffee and spend no more than one hour talking to them because anything over that is counter-productive. I heard about a lead shaper who got a green site sketch with two bunkers that didn’t fit. He shook his head and turned the plan upside down and built it in reverse. Everybody loves the hole.

Adam Sherer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2008, 08:34:09 PM »
Here are three ways to determine whether or not someone is a good shaper:

1. Some shapers leave an area so perfect that you could almost seed or sod directly behind them

2. Some shapers can shape exactly what a plans call for

3. Some shapers have the ability to operate the equipment well, but more importantly have the imagination to create really cool features


The type "1" shaper is great to a contractor because it saves a lot of labor if you can grade (shape) an area perfectly.  The type "2" shaper is great for architects that do not visit the construction process and just send out plans to be built. The type "3" shaper would not be employed like type "1" and type "2" shapers but can be incredibly great shapers when working for someone that gives them some leeway.
"Spem successus alit"
 (success nourishes hope)
 
         - Ross clan motto

Ron Farris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2008, 09:50:46 PM »
I once had a female skid steer operator who was about 4'5" X 3'5".  She chewed tobacco all day, spit, cussed and drank as much, or more, beer than anyone on the site.  She was extremely proficiant and quick in getting what you asked her to accomplish.  Jill, was a bit abrasive in personality, but I would choose her over many of the aloof shapers of today.  It was a remote site with a low budget and she shaped the greens with the skidsteer.  All thinks considered they turned out pretty good.


The worst shaper I experienced had 30 golf courses under his belt and he was super clean.  He boasted that you could lay sod behind his dozer work.  I said that was great, but the budget doesn't allow for sod, so leave it a little rough so we could create some shadows.  He thought I was crazy.
The best shaper is Mother Nature:


JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2008, 09:59:00 PM »
How did the role of the shaper come about in golf course construction? 

Peter Pallotta

Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2008, 10:08:04 PM »
Tom D - your band analogy reminded me of something that might resonate with you. Duke Ellington once said that no one is his band "played 100% of his instrument", i.e. none of his musicians got the absolute most out of his given instrument's potential. Some, he said, might play 90% of their instruments, but others were at 50% and even 20%. But Duke didn't mean that as a criticism; instead, he put the onus of himself as bandleader and composer to recognize the strengths and limitations of each of his band members and to create music around that. For example, maybe the guy who only played 20% of his instrument produced absolutely fantastic sounds within that narrow bandwith - well then, Duke's job was to make sure a song or an arrangement maximized  that 20% and didn't call for any more, and to use it as one colour in a broad palette; but at the same time making sure to leave room for the guy who played 90% of his instrument (someone like Johnny Hodges) to shine and sometimes even to steal the show.

All of which is to say, I'd imagine one of the talents an architect in your position has to have is the ability to recognize the strengths and weaknesses of your team members, and to bolster the confidence of those who, while they might only play 20% of their insruments, can still make a great contribution to the whole. I'm almost certain that no improviser can really play well if he's lacking in self-confidence.

Peter 

PS - Interestingly, this came from one of the very few bandleaders in jazz --in fact, probably the  only one -- who kept his band in tact and paid his musicians 365 days of the year, whether or not they were touring or recording. It cost him a lot financially to keep his team together like that, but Duke said that since his main interest was composing great music, he wanted to be sure that when he heard their sounds in his head -- individually and collectively -- he could get that exact team together at a moment's notice to create the music he was hearing.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 10:22:48 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Adam Sherer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2008, 10:13:56 PM »
How did the role of the shaper come about in golf course construction? 


I imagine the progression would be somewhat like this:

1800s - guy with shovel
1900s - guy with horse and drag
1920s - guy with crawler dozer
1960s - guy named Pete Dye
2000s - guys that make $$
"Spem successus alit"
 (success nourishes hope)
 
         - Ross clan motto

Rob Rigg

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2008, 10:14:32 PM »
For those of us who have not seen the construction of a course unfold, can someone describe the following process:

1) what is used for the initial clearing of the land (if necessary)?
2) what is used for the initial shaping of the land (if necessary)?
3) how does the shaper's machinery differ from the initial land shaping machinery (if it does)?

JMorgan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2008, 10:16:00 PM »
How did the role of the shaper come about in golf course construction? 


I imagine the progression would be somewhat like this:

1800s - guy with shovel
1900s - guy with horse and drag
1920s - guy with crawler dozer
1960s - guy named Pete Dye
2000s - guys that make $$

Adam, a guy named Tom Paul would like to buy you a drink.  ;D
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 10:22:53 PM by JMorgan »

JC Urbina

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2008, 12:29:28 AM »
Joel
Tony Russell is a good shaper.
1) Doesn't play golf
2) Doesn't fall in love with everything he builds
3) No wasted motions
4) Very effecient. 
5) Solving drainage problems as he creates features.
6) Very clean work
7) Doesn't over analyze his work.  Builds something and moves on. 
8) Creates very natural features.
9) Never stops working unless talking over ideas with others.
10) Always willing to try something different.  Almost never says " You can't do that"
11) Fast
12) Willing to run any type of machine.
13) Problem solver
14) Shows up early
15) Stays Late.
16) Team Player
17) Entertaining
18) Willing to Travel

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2008, 01:19:35 AM »
Joel
Tony Russell is a good shaper.
1) Doesn't play golf
2) Doesn't fall in love with everything he builds
3) No wasted motions
4) Very effecient. 
5) Solving drainage problems as he creates features.
6) Very clean work
7) Doesn't over analyze his work.  Builds something and moves on. 
8) Creates very natural features.
9) Never stops working unless talking over ideas with others.
10) Always willing to try something different.  Almost never says " You can't do that"
11) Fast
12) Willing to run any type of machine.
13) Problem solver
14) Shows up early
15) Stays Late.
16) Team Player
17) Entertaining
18) Willing to Travel

Good shaper.  He sounds great!

Jim:  Are you at Claremont CC on September 18?

Jim Nugent

Re: What makes a good shaper?
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2008, 02:15:37 AM »
Can anyone post before/after pictures, to show us the shaper's work?  I'm interested to see how much shapers change/form the land.  Do they work mostly around the greens, or equally all around the course?