Tees for Women: What Are We Supposed To Conclude?

[Abe Summers]

Some thoughts:

* After Golf for Women decided to close its doors a few months back, I took a look at their website and found this little gem as to how they picked the Top 50 Golf Courses for Women:

"A GFW Top 50 Course must have at least one set of tees under 5,300 yards, and should have at least two under 6,000."

Under 5,300 yards.  Alright... but why not 5,000 yards (I hit the ball 30-40% farther than most women, and I'm not playing many 7,420 yard courses.  5,300 yards * 1.4 = 7,420 yards while 5000 yards * 1.4 = 7,000 yards).  Is this, simply, the reason the average woman shoots 114 and the men shoot 98?  I know of very few women who play in the 80s at the local club, but quite a few men.

* I played a few times as a kid - got back into it and now shoot in the low 90s/high 80s regularly after a few months work.  My wife meanwhile learned in her late 20s, and despite being quite athletic, is still well into the 110s.  Although she tees off from the reds, I am often far ahead of her after the tee shot and she seldom makes pars or bogies, or even reaches the green in two on par 4s - maybe twice/thrice a round.  She's taking lessons and slowly improving BUT SHE'S VERY FRUSTRATED...

I am starting to think women's tees are too far back.  Let's make the women happier... 

[John Kavanaugh]

A month or so ago I played the women's course at Medinah and kept asking where were the women's tees.  No way is there a set under 6000 yds.

[Tyler Kearns]

Abe,

I would concur that most courses have their forward set of tees too far back.  I have copied a link to an article where Alice Dye discusses the issue;

http://www.usga.org/turf/green_section_record/2002/nov_dec/move-forward.html

TK

[Mike Policano]

It is clear to me that the forward tees should be set up to provide fun to those who play the forward tees.  They are often an afterthought, especially on older courses.  They should also be set up at the same par for each hole.

I am not a fan of a long par 4 for the whites and blues being called a par 5 for the forward tees which are just ahead of the whites.  This causes more pain than fun and SLOWS down the game.  On many of these type holes, the forward tees should sometimes be 100 yards closer to the hole and be a par 4.

It would speed up play, be more fun and provide a more enjoyable experience for everyone involved.  Not a bad outcome for a sport that loses as many participants as it gains each year.

[Michael]

I thought we were suppose to do away with "Ladies/Woman's" tee in favor of "forward tees"?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Abe,

Arthur Little and Frank Thomas have done some work on this.  Based on proportional tee shot distances, they conclude that the 135 yard hitting woman really needs tees at about 4100 yards to reach most greens in regulation, not 5100 yards.

Like Kelly, I keep my forward tees from 4800-5100, but have been trending towards under 5000 yard tees.  Throwing out the 4100 figure usually helps start the discussion to keep them under 5000!

For the many women who now hit it 180 or so the solution is simple - move back to the next tees typically designed for seniors.  And, instead of making senior tees at 6000, drop those to as low as 5500, which is plenty for the 180 hitter.

I agree with Mike P - just like adding "mindless" distance (John Conley's phrase) we shouldn't randomly drop distance for the forward tees.  If moving the tee up puts a creek at the 140 yard range, perhaps its better to leave the tee back a bit, for example.  Other examples might be moving further forward to allow getting around a dogleg, placing the tee where a nice tree might give shade, etc.

[Tyler Kearns]

Kelly,

We have found the same issue when proposing a new set of forward tees at existing facilities. Again, it is the few women players who are single-digit handicaps who object.  While we argue that nobody was forcing them to play from the forward set on account of their gender, they understand that when in handicapped tournaments, the lowest common denominator will win out, and they will have to play from the most forward set of tees.  Still, during their regular play (vast majority of rounds), they are free to elect which tees to play from.  Not sure if they feel be-littled by the prospect of shortening the course, or are gluttons for punishment, but I feel giving them an option as to which tees to play from is a step in the right direction.
 
Personally, when competing in similar events at my club, we play from the 3rd longest set of tees (4 tee set-up).  Sure, I'de rather play from 6,800 yds. as opposed to 6,000 yds., but I know that going into the event and cannot therefore complain, and to be frank, it can be a nice change from the usual routine.  

TK

[John Kavanaugh]

I thought we were suppose to do away with "Ladies/Woman's" tee in favor of "forward tees"?

Are you Margaret C's better half?

[Michael]

I thought we were suppose to do away with "Ladies/Woman's" tee in favor of "forward tees"?

Are you Margaret C's better half?

 Funny you would say that...My Ex IS a Margaret..C, as well.

(Non Golfer though)

[Carl Rogers]

OT maybe

One of the interesting elements of Riverfront are the most forward tees and the interesting golf it provides particulary on the par 3's.

[Abe Summers]

Kelly, would you say that the members / players have been happy on the new courses where you've put the tees at 4,800-5,200?  I'd like to hear if they like that or not.  As Mike says, the sport loses a bunch of people because they are fed up... or is it bankrupt? 

[Jim_Kennedy]

Abe,
Timely topic as today is "Women's Equality Day".


Is it really possible to cut 2000+ yards off a course and still keep it interesting and enough of a challenge?

[Abe Summers]

Jim, I did not know it was "Women's Equality Day."  But you did!  You are a very modern man!  I assume you had this marked down on your calendar for a while... 

[Michael]

Do we still have a "stigma" if a player plays from a set of shorter tee boxes due to the state of his/her game?

 Looking at 50.. I wonder how long (for me) those back tees will look less like a sporting challenge and more like a round killer.

[Daryl David]

I think this discussion has to go beyond yardage.  Countless times I have seen forward tees that may be fine from a yardage perspective, but are poorly situated for the hole.  That is one thing I have always liked about Tom Doak's courses.  The forward tees offer an interesting shot sometimes with equal strategy to the longer tees. (and yes, I admit sometimes play them ) 
They are not just stuck on the side of the fairway up a hundred yards.  On some courses the forward tees look to me like some kind of after thought.  "Oops, we better stick a tee up there for the short hitters; go level some ground off to the left"

[Michael]

I think this discussion has to go beyond yardage.  Countless times I have seen forward tees that may be fine from a yardage perspective, but are poorly situated for the hole.  That is one thing I have always liked about Tom Doak's courses.  The forward tees offer an interesting shot sometimes with equal strategy to the longer tees. (and yes, I admit sometimes play them ) 
They are not just stuck on the side of the fairway up a hundred yards.  On some courses the forward tees look to me like some kind of after thought.  "Oops, we better stick a tee up there for the short hitters; go level some ground off to the left"

 Very true..great observation..I wonder if some here could answer that question are they sometimes a afterthought?

[John Kavanaugh]

What is it exactly about women that makes you guys believe that they need to play tees less than 6000 yds?  I would say it is the hit and giggle mentality that is pushed on women that drive them away from the game more than an occasional failure or two.  I have to say that after two weeks of watching the Olympics that girls kick ass and don't need to be treated like they have near zero talent, strength or athletic ability. 

[John Kavanaugh]

One interesting observation I have made is that courses who do not promote the hit and giggle mentality have more vibrant, interesting and active women memberships.  When I asked my caddie at Medinah why there were no women's tees on the women's course he told me that they have a large number of fine players that don't need "up" tees.  Medinah is an old club so it makes me question if given a set of 4000 yd tees the lady membership would be less skilled because they were not motivated to become better.  I have also had a teaching pro tell me that he recommends people buy clubs that fit the game they want to have and improve their swing to fit the club rather than the more obvious technique of buying helper clubs to fit your bad swing.  I think the same philosophy can work in architecture under the simple solution that you believe golfers have character and don't quit under the first sign of adversity.

[Michael]

I don't think that shorter yardage tees are just for women, I know plenty of young as well as older golfers that have trouble reaching fairways even on a well struck shot, I've also played with women that were just fine on the back set.

[Bob_Huntley]

One interesting observation I have made is that courses who do not promote the hit and giggle mentality have more vibrant, interesting and active women memberships.  When I asked my caddie at Medinah why there were no women's tees on the women's course he told me that they have a large number of fine players that don't need "up" tees.  Medinah is an old club so it makes me question if given a set of 4000 yd tees the lady membership would be less skilled because they were not motivated to become better.  I have also had a teaching pro tell me that he recommends people buy clubs that fit the game they want to have and improve their swing to fit the club rather than the more obvious technique of buying helper clubs to fit your bad swing.  I think the same philosophy can work in architecture under the simple solution that you believe golfers have character and don't quit under the first sign of adversity.

John,

We have a pretty large Ladies Section although there are very few Olympic aspirants among them.

What I see is that anything approaching 6000 yards for 90% percent of them requires a fairway wood shot to reach a par four. I would think that very few women golfers ever use an iron for their second shots.

The fairest tees for women that I have seen to date, is provided on our Shore course, courtesy of Mike Strantz.

Bob

[Sean_A]

What is interesting about this topic is that most men have no business playing 6800 yard courses and in fact most would probably cope and enjoy the game much better if they played closer to 6000 yard courses.  So long as there are a handful of long holes - say 460 to 530 then most players should be content with breaking out the fairway woods/long irons say 4 or 5 times - not including par 3s of course.  Even guys that can hit the ball a long way should learn to score properly on short courses before promoting themselves.  The truth is, most would never get promoted!  Finally, talking about yardages can largely be meaningless if the terrain and width of corridors aren't mentioned in the next two sentences.

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

Bob,

All the old men I know don't seem to have a problem hitting fairway woods in mostly failed attempts to reach a green.  My concerns are more about growing the game along the lines of the young woman demographic.  I see them more interested in athletic endeavors as opposed to hit and giggles.

You will always have juniors, beginners, mothers, wives and old men whose game does not fit the course.  Be it them or their guardian someone needs to teach them how to put a peg in the ground where it makes them happy.  There are upper limit handicap restrictions for a reason.

[John Kavanaugh]

If roads were much wider do you think people would have learned the somewhat amazing skill of driving in a straight line.  Don't most peoples skills eventually conform to the minimum standards demanded of them? 

[Tyler Kearns]

That is one thing I have always liked about Tom Doak's courses.  The forward tees offer an interesting shot sometimes with equal strategy to the longer tees. (and yes, I admit sometimes play them ) 

Daryl,

Playing Barnbougle Dunes, I was struck by the location of the forward tee at No. 16. Quite arguably, the best vantage point to be had on the entire course. The glaring anomaly made me more cognizant as to locating forward tees to capture specific views not enjoyed by those playing the back sets.

TK

[John Kavanaugh]

What is interesting about this topic is that most men have no business playing 6800 yard courses and in fact most would probably cope and enjoy the game much better if they played closer to 6000 yard courses.  So long as there are a handful of long holes - say 460 to 530 then most players should be content with breaking out the fairway woods/long irons say 4 or 5 times - not including par 3s of course.  Even guys that can hit the ball a long way should learn to score properly on short courses before promoting themselves.  The truth is, most would never get promoted!  Finally, talking about yardages can largely be meaningless if the terrain and width of corridors aren't mentioned in the next two sentences.

Ciao

Sean,

Why do you think most men would be happier if they played shorter courses?  Do you really believe that they will score lower...I don't.  Do you think they will be happier getting done sooner...I don't.  I don't get this theory often revealed on this site.  What is your reasoning, and if true, why don't they do it?  Please don't tout the GCA party line that we are smart and they are stupid.