[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

Regarding most of your post #67 and some of your other posts on your take on the "Philadelphia School of Architecture" what it meant originally at least to us and apparently to Geoff Shackelford, we surely do not want to dissuade you from coming up with your own particular definition of what it was and who was part of it originally but I think I can assure you from what I have seen from you on this thread to date, I seriously doubt anyone interested in it around here will care less how you are attempting to define it or include architects in it. A list of who all designed all the courses around here at any particularly time in those early years the original "Philly School" guys were around and practicing has virtually nothing to do with our concept or the concept to date of what the "Philly School" was and who was part of it.

This penchant of yours and that other guy seemingly somewhat allied to you and your philosophies on American architects and architecture to totally redefine everything that has come before you is basically of no use and no interest to me or a pretty healthy number of others, including clubs seriously into the history of American golf arhitecture, I think.

On another thread I offered to begin a thread with on a fundamental subject and way of looking at all this. I will check again but it seems you may've avoided it as you tend to do with things fundamental and important to golf architecture.

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom Mac,

I think you misunderstood what I meant. I wanted to know the geographical (miles from Philly) area that you used to determine the number of courses per architect. That is why I mentioned the number of courses that tilly had done in Pennsylvania. Obviously not all would qualify as Philadel[phia courses, but I believe a number of them in Jersey would depending on your distance requirements.

So, what area are you looking at in making this determination and specifically why that area?

For that particular exercise we were looking just at Philadelphia, although we did go just across the border into NJ, but when evaluating the Philadelphia School obviously you would consider all the courses Tilly, Thomas and the others did elsewhere.

[wsmorrison]

I am not fretting, Tom.  You said that 1922 was the height of the Philadelphia School.  I think that is nonsense.  You may have looked at it on another thread but on this one you say 1922 is the height. Using 1922, you ignore much of the work by Thomas, Tillinghast and Flynn, particularly Flynn in Philadelphia where he dominated a region like few if any.  I also suspect the number of courses you posted.  What is your criteria?  At least as regards Flynn, it is incorrect.

As for the list of names you produced for me to say who should be in or out, it shows your concept of the Philadelphia School is different than mine.  Tom Paul expressed his feeling for what the "school" is.  My concept is about the same as Tom Paul.  We recognize it is different things to different people.  You can only decide for yourself who should be in or out.  Asking me doesn't make a lot of sense unless we defined the clearly define the criteria in advance.

However, I would include the famous five as well as, though to a lesser degree, Meehan.

Flynn
Wilson
Tillinghast
Thomas
Crump




Colt hardly spent any time at all in Philadelphia.  While he influenced design, he was not of the Philadelphia School.  Smith, Klauder and Heebner possibly be considered subordinate members.   McGovern was disliked by Flynn and like Ross, was on the outside looking in getting few commissions compared to others given how many courses were constructed while he had an office.  The 1922 cutoff date you would use conveniently fits what you'd like to represent.  It is not an appropriate date to consider.

Why didn't you include Macdonald, Whigham and Barker in your list?  

[ChipOat]

I didn't read page 2 of this thread so I may be repeating somebody else's post.  If so - apologies.

Sometime in the last 25 years (that's the best I can do), there was an article in the old USGA Journal about "The Philadlephia School of Golf Architecture".  It may have been authored by Bob Sommers or Frank Hannigan - I don't remember.

However, I DO remember reading it with interest so I know it exists in somebody's archives somewhere.

[Dan Herrmann]

The quality of Philadelphia architecture was only eclipsed by the quality of golf design. Local designers included the already mentioned duo of Hugh Wilson and George Crump (whose father and only brother were architects), creators of the landmark designs of Merion and Pine Valley, joined by George Thomas, AW Tillinghast, William Flynn, Alex Findlay in addition to the universally active Ross---an awesome group of talents forming the so called Philadelphia School of golf architecture.
 

-  Tom Mac Wood, "In My Opinion" at this very website.

-------

Tom - I thought you'd find it interesting to see what you wrote back then.  Nothing negative implied!

[Phil_the_Author]

This discussion has renewed my curiosity in something that I recently began wondering about.

In Tilly's article "And They Built A Course By The Trinity River," he wrote something quite surprising regarding the creating of Pine Valley and a person who, other than this single reference, i have never seen credited with anything there.

His name is Cameron Buxton.

Tilly wrote, "Cameron Buxton, who came originally from North Carolina, was a close friend of the late George Crump, whose conception of Pine Valley was the direct result of a similar situation. As most golfers know, this great course was planned to give the best players of the Philadelphia district testing play which their individual courses utterly lacked. Buxton had been one of George Crump’s most enthusiastic coworkers at Pine Valley during the years he lived in the North and before he finally followed his business into Texas..."

Buxton brought Tilly to Dallas to do Brook Hollow (Cameron was the prime mover behind it's creation) and also was probably the person who got him involved in both the Dallas Country Club where he was a member and Cedar Crest as well.

There are a surprising number of persons on the "fringe" of those invovled in the "Philadelphia School" that brought them to manu other parts of the country, and therefor expanding their circle of design influences, as well.

Has anyone ever heard of Buxton's work at pine Valley? It must have been significant for Tilly to describe it as such...

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Can you please post the listing of courses that you arrived at that makes up your "Best of Philadelphia, circa 1922" ranking?

If memory serves, I believe I disputed a number of them as being anything but excellent but I'll reserve judgement until I see the list.

Thanks

[JMorgan]

I doubt that any of these guys thought of themselves as part of a school. 

[TEPaul]

Phil:

I think you asked me about Cameron (Cam) Buxton off-line at some point, didn't you, or am I thinking of someone else?

Cameron Buxton was one of Crump's long time regular golfing buddies that numbered around ten or so going way back before Pine Valley, and he was good. He was an original founding member of Pine Valley and one of those who was in on the vision as Crump went through the search and the early design ideas with that group of his friends that included Cam Buxton.

Other interesting tidbits about Buxton are he eventualy won the 1916 and 1917 Philadelphia Amateur Championhip and he was the one who brought home the bacon when PV member Wistar Harvey agreed to put up $5,000 towards the cost of the dormitory building if any Pine Valley member could make it past the first two rounds of the 1916 US Amateur at Merion.

Cam Buxton was the one who did it and PV got Harvey's five grand for the dorm building.

[TEPaul]

Chipper O.

That's interesting about the article maybe 25 years ago in the USGA's Golf Journal by perhaps Sommers or Hannigan. I was not aware of that when I wrote those two articles on the "Philadephia School of Architecture" the first primarily focusing on Pine Valley and the next primarily on Merion (since it was in the USGA's Amateur Championship magazine). It will be easy to find if it was in the USGA's Golf Journal and it will be interesting to compare it to what I wrote or what Geoff Shackelford wrote about The Philly School. I don't know whether it's a good thing or bad thing that neither of us was aware of it at the time but that will make it at least more interesting to compare and contrast what-all was written by all of us.

Whatever was written about it 25 years ago in the USGA's Golf Journal I'd wager it wasn't much like this long laundry list of courses and names we see on this thread by this historic revisionist who's never even been to this town or any of these few top courses here which essentially were the laboratories of that "Philly School" group and from which the name and the idea very likely comes from.

[Thomas MacWood]

"To my knoweldge Hugh Wilson was never a member of PV.


Mr. MacWood:

Maybe he never was a member of Pine Valley. Wayne and I have never checked the membership rolls of PV to find out, that I'm aware of. That would be an interestingly little trivia item to look into though. But he did serve as the green chairman of PV for a time and that is pretty strange to contemplate, don't you think?---eg a green chairman of a club who has never actually been a member of the club. I suppose it may be possible in his particular case, and if that was the case it only goes to show just how much some of those "Philly School" guys really did collaborate amongst some courses around here.

That is pretty strange. Howard Street was golf committee chairman after Crump's death and held the position at the time Alison was brought in. What year was Hugh Wilson chairman?

[Thomas MacWood]

"Where does your Ross story at PV come from?"

From Pine Valley's archives, Mr. MacWood. If I run across the letter from the PV guy who mentioned he brought Ross down there in my files I'll be sure to tell you about it and who he was. Well, on second thought, there is the matter of that ridiculous "Pledge" of yours. What should I make of that, Mr. MacWood? Have you ever heard of the concept of QUID PRO QUO, Mr. MACWOOD?

TE
I suspect Howard Perrin was Ross's host. Perrin was regular visitor to Pinehurst.

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

You're having trouble reading again, aren't you? Apparently you didn't notice I said I believe Hugh Wilson was the green chairman. Whatever are we going to do about this continuous inability of yours to understand just about anything and everything that is said on here or in articles you find and apparently anywhere and everywhere else?

I don't believe it was Perrin who brought Ross to Pine Valley but as I said when I run across who wrote it in a letter in my files I'll consider providing it, that is if you work something different out about this preposterous "Pledge" of yours instead of just trying to ignore it when I mention it. 

[Thomas MacWood]

I am not fretting, Tom.  You said that 1922 was the height of the Philadelphia School.  I think that is nonsense.  You may have looked at it on another thread but on this one you say 1922 is the height. Using 1922, you ignore much of the work by Thomas, Tillinghast and Flynn, particularly Flynn in Philadelphia where he dominated a region like few if any.  I also suspect the number of courses you posted.  What is your criteria?  At least as regards Flynn, it is incorrect.

As for the list of names you produced for me to say who should be in or out, it shows your concept of the Philadelphia School is different than mine.  Tom Paul expressed his feeling for what the "school" is.  My concept is about the same as Tom Paul.  We recognize it is different things to different people.  You can only decide for yourself who should be in or out.  Asking me doesn't make a lot of sense unless we defined the clearly define the criteria in advance.

However, I would include the famous five as well as, though to a lesser degree, Meehan.

Flynn
Wilson
Tillinghast
Thomas
Crump




Colt hardly spent any time at all in Philadelphia.  While he influenced design, he was not of the Philadelphia School.  Smith, Klauder and Heebner possibly be considered subordinate members.   McGovern was disliked by Flynn and like Ross, was on the outside looking in getting few commissions compared to others given how many courses were constructed while he had an office.  The 1922 cutoff date you would use conveniently fits what you'd like to represent.  It is not an appropriate date to consider.

Why didn't you include Macdonald, Whigham and Barker in your list?  

Wayne
The height of the Philadelphia School is open to debate. What's not open to debate are its two most important events - the designs of Pine Valley and Merion - and we know when they occured. That old thread looked at the years 1908 to 1922, that is definitely not the cut off for the Philly School. It is interesting to note however that after 1922 Tilly and Thomas were gone, Crump was dead, Wilson was sick and would pass shortly, and Flynn would be the lone surviving school mate.

For an outsider you have to admitt Ross sure made impressive inroads and developed good relationships with the others. In many ways Flynn was an outsider too. The only inside connection he had was Wilson. And if I'm not mistaken your info about McGovern comes from Flynn's daughter.

[TEPaul]

"Mr. MacWood:

The man who reported Ross' opinion of the course to Crump in a note or letter was named Charles Knapp. I don't know if he even belonged to Pine Valley."

Now what are we going to do about this preposterous "pledge" of yours, Mr. MacWood, and your endless stream of questions on all things to do with Philadelphia courses and architects and the "Philadelphia School of Architecture."? As you know it's taken us here over eight years to research most of this stuff. Do you really expect us to devote that kind of time to educating you on it all?

[Thomas MacWood]

When I was researching Crump I discovered AH Smith's obit which stated he was involved in the design of Huntingdon Valley, Pine Valley and Cobbs Creek. In or out?

[Thomas MacWood]

I tend to agree with Wayne, when he includes the likes of Meehan, Smith, Klauder and Heebner. Aristic movements or schools are not made up entirely of all-stars. They have tier one, tier two and tier three artists under their tents. They weren't all geniuses, but they shared certain fundamental tenants.

Flynn
Wilson
Tillinghast
Meehan
A.Smith
Heebner
Klauder
Crump
Thomas

[Thomas MacWood]

This discussion has renewed my curiosity in something that I recently began wondering about.

In Tilly's article "And They Built A Course By The Trinity River," he wrote something quite surprising regarding the creating of Pine Valley and a person who, other than this single reference, i have never seen credited with anything there.

His name is Cameron Buxton.

Tilly wrote, "Cameron Buxton, who came originally from North Carolina, was a close friend of the late George Crump, whose conception of Pine Valley was the direct result of a similar situation. As most golfers know, this great course was planned to give the best players of the Philadelphia district testing play which their individual courses utterly lacked. Buxton had been one of George Crump’s most enthusiastic coworkers at Pine Valley during the years he lived in the North and before he finally followed his business into Texas..."

Buxton brought Tilly to Dallas to do Brook Hollow (Cameron was the prime mover behind it's creation) and also was probably the person who got him involved in both the Dallas Country Club where he was a member and Cedar Crest as well.

There are a surprising number of persons on the "fringe" of those invovled in the "Philadelphia School" that brought them to manu other parts of the country, and therefor expanding their circle of design influences, as well.

Has anyone ever heard of Buxton's work at pine Valley? It must have been significant for Tilly to describe it as such...

Phil
When researching Crump I ran into some info on Buxton. I identified him among Crump's inner-circle. Here is brief profile cut and pasted from the essay.

Cameron Buxton: Huntingdon Valley. An excellent golfer. Originally from Winston-Salem, NC, he picked up the game after moving to Philadelphia around 1907. Like Carr he was a quick learner. Won the Silver Cross in 1913 and the Philadelphia Am in 1916 and 1917. Played on the Lesley from 1911 to 1915. Moved to Dallas in the fall of 1916, and was instrumental in founding Brook Hollow (designed by Tillinghast)—an extremely challenging test along the lines of Pine Valley—designed to elevate golf in Dallas. Buxton died in 1926 while on a visit to Philadelphia.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom & Tom,

I appreciate that general info on Buxton, but I know that and much more already. I even have a family photograph of the trophy given to him as a going away present by the Huntingdon Valley Country Club with an inscribed date of September 9th, 1916 on it.

I am not looking for general info but rather specific info regarding the WORK that BUXTON DID at Pine Valley.

Again, Tilly wrote that, "Buxton had been one of George Crump’s most enthusiastic COWORKERS at Pine Valley..." Not enthusiastic original members, no, but a COWORKER!

In what sense could he have meant this? Did he contribute design ideas? Was he down in the dirt with a shovel? Specifically what?
 
Tom Mac, You stated, "It is interesting to note however that after 1922 Tilly and Thomas were gone..."

WHAT are you talking about with that? He certainly designed and built a number of courses in PA. and closeby in New Jersey during the 1920's.

[Mike_Cirba]

I tend to agree with Wayne, when he includes the likes of Meehan, Smith, Klauder and Heebner. Aristic movements or schools are not made up entirely of all-stars. They have tier one, tier two and tier three artists under their tents. They weren't all geniuses, but they shared certain fundamental tenants.

Flynn
Wilson
Tillinghast
Meehan
A.Smith
Heebner
Klauder
Crump
Thomas

Nice list, and they were probably the top practitioners from inside the Schuylkill during that period, but I doubt that any single one of them but perhaps Flynn and Tillie would have considered themselves a golf course architect, much less from any school.

They would have seen themselves as avid amateur golfers and sportsmen trying to improve Philadelphia golf, and that would have been the case with early Tillie as well.   

[Thomas MacWood]

Phil
I thought Tilly moved to NYC at some point prior to 1922...I stand corrected.

The original plan at PV was to have 18 men design 18 holes. I identified 8 or 9 men who were Crump's closest friends, many of whom held some position of importance in the club's initial hierarchy. Buxton was one those gentlemen. That plan was abandoned early on and HS Colt was engaged, but based upon written reports its pretty clear a number these guys were regularly out at the site helping (especially in the first year or two) - Carr and WP Smith's names probably came up most often.

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike
I would agree with you. That goes toward what I said above some where, when I split it into two phases. Phase 1 made up almost entirely of the amateur golf architect hobbiests. Phase 2 dedicated golf architects emmerge, guys like Thomas, Tilly, and Flynn.

I'm still wondering how we can exclude Ross and/or McGovern considering how important they were to the develpoment of golf architecture in the city.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom

I'm on the road but pls see my definition and its two components as well as my answer to Kyle about Findlay.

Thanks

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom,

Yes, Tilly had opened an office in Manhattan in the teens. He actually maintained two offices for many years including the one in the Mutual Life Building in Philadelphia at the same time. Exactly when he closed that office is unknown, though it could have been before 1922.

I misunderstood what you meant. I thought you were speaking of his not designing courses in the Philadelphia area after that date.

Thanks for the further info on Buxton at PV

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom

I'm on the road but pls see my definition and its two components as well as my answer to Kyle about Findlay.

Thanks

Mike
I couldn't find your two components.

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