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Thomas MacWood

Philadelphia School
« on: August 26, 2008, 07:26:26 AM »
I've asked the question who is included in the so-called Philadelphia School and I've gotten various answers. Perhaps the better question is: What are the critieria for inclusion into the Philadelphia School?

Phil_the_Author

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #1 on: August 26, 2008, 07:57:45 AM »
Criteria #1- Having lived in Philadelphia...  ;D

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #2 on: August 26, 2008, 08:18:54 AM »
Are guys like KBM and Gil Hanse members of "The Philadelphia School - the next generation"?

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #3 on: August 26, 2008, 08:31:19 AM »
Dan

KBM and Hanse are called Philadelphia Schoolers whereas the ODGs are called Philadelphia Schoolies.

It's all explained here.

Generationally yours
Mark

Mike Sweeney

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #4 on: August 26, 2008, 09:02:34 AM »
Criteria #1- Having lived in Philadelphia...  ;D

No one "FROM" Philadelphia actually lives in Philadelphia. Not old dead guys, not Kelly or Gil Hanse and definitely not GCA participants Paul, Morrison, Cirba, Mayday.........

Only one guy has lived in and gone to school in Philadelphia ....... and now he lives in New York!  ;)

I would think a relationship with or adopting design principles of George Thomas would go a long way. I would even say that Geoff Shaq could make a claim to The Philadelphia School.

Peter Pallotta

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2008, 09:10:59 AM »
When the colonies were part of the British Empire, Philadelphia was the empire's second largest city (just after London) and a seat of traditional arts and learning.  But with the inventiveness and ambition of forward-thinking men like Franklin, it then led the way towards a new beginning, to revolution and independance and the birth of the American experiment. I wonder if this dual sensibility and self-understanding in the political realm also shaped and was reflected in the architectural ethos of the Philadelphia School.

Just some morning speculation to go with my coffee.

Mark - thanks for the laugh. While I was always perturbed by Captain Kirk's cavalier attitude towards the Prime Directive, I was glad to learn that I'm neither a "ers" or an "ies".

Peter
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 09:13:12 AM by Peter Pallotta »

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2008, 09:19:16 AM »
I was actually born in Philadelphia, lived in Philadelphia until age 30,went to school in Philadelphia(except for 4 years in Happy Valley,) worked in Philadelphia until 2000 and now live in the 'burbs of Philadelphia. The only people who live in Philadelphia now are those that must because of their job- police,fire, teacher,politicians, patronage workers,etc.  and those who can't escape. ;D

However, I am a member of the Philadelphia School.
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

TEPaul

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2008, 09:21:46 AM »
"I've asked the question who is included in the so-called Philadelphia School and I've gotten various answers. Perhaps the better question is: What are the critieria for inclusion into the Philadelphia School?"


Mr. MacWood:

That is a good question and perhaps even an interesting one. To be honest with you I really don't know the answer to that question or even if an answer is necessary.

I can tell you this, though, and probably should tell you since I have been one who rather recently wrote a couple of articles in two publications (The Philadelphia Golfer magazine and the USGA's US Amateur magazine in 2005) about "The Philadelphia School of Architecture" and what it was and who might be considered a part of it originally.

As far as I know at this point the idea of it, or my idea of it, very well may've come from California's Geoff Shackelford.

I say that because Geoff Shackelford was arguably my first mentor in golf course architecture around a decade ago. My first exposure to the subject of golf architecture was in preparation to get involved in the so-called "Ardrossn Project" for my club, GMGC, and a proposed move from its present site to Ardrossan Farms; I went out to Barnes and Nobles or Borders and bought his book "The Golden Age of Golf Design."

After reading the book and thankfully because his email was included on the back jacket we proceeded to email constantly about golf and architecture and the project I was involved in. Geoff was the one who suggested I contact Coore and Crenshaw and that is what I did and eventually Bill Coore became my most important mentor on golf architecture, that's for sure.

I tell you all this because as far as I'm aware it may've been Geoff Shackelford in his book "The Golden Age of Golf Design" who thought to divide a few various regions and perhaps collections of architects or even styles and eras of American golf architecture into what he referred to as "schools".

This is what Geoff Shackelford had to say about "The Philadelphia School" in his book "The Golden Age of Golf Design":

     "The five men who constitute the Philadelphia School of Design were a diverse and eccentric group, yet they were all good friends and the success of each can be attributed in large part to their residence in the Philadelphia area and their mutual friendship. George Crump, Hugh Wilson, A.W. Tillinghast, George Thomas and William Flynn were the five founders of the Philadelphia School, and each made an indelible mark on the landscape of American golf architecture.
      How and when the Philadelphia School began is not known and is not relevant. One likely impetus was the lack of interesting golf architecture in the Philadelphia area, which was, however, home to a host of excellent golfers."

Perhaps one of Goeff Shackelford's inspiration in dividing his book into "schools", including the Philadelphia School, was his ongoing interest in George Thomas who designed LA's Riviera after moving west from his home in Philadelphia after designing a few early courses and perhaps also his interest in how and how much George Thomas himself, in his seminal book, "Golf Architecture in America, Its Strategy and Construction" credited Philadelphia's Hugh Wilson for helping and mentoring him in the area of golf architecture.

In that book of Thomas' this is what he had to say about Merion's Hugh Wilson:

"I always considered Hugh Wilson, of Merion, Pennsylvania, as one of the best of our architects, professional or amateur. He taught me many things at Merion and the Philadelphia Municipal; and when I was building my first California courses, he kindly advised me by letter when I wrote him concerning them."

Perhaps you feel that even George Thomas, Wilson's friend and contemporary, was simply trying to unrealistically and unfactually create a legend out of Merion's Hugh Wilson but somehow I rather doubt that and apparently most all of the world of golf and architecture and its history does too.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 09:35:55 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #8 on: August 26, 2008, 09:41:12 AM »
TE
So would you add being good friends to the criteria of living in Philadelphia? Are there any other criteria?

TEPaul

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #9 on: August 26, 2008, 09:45:55 AM »
"Only one guy has lived in and gone to school in Philadelphia ....... and now he lives in New York!"


Mike Sweeney:

My life and times was similar to yours but in reverse. I was born and lived in New York but eventually ended up in Philadelphia (or as you say just outside actual Philadelphia). I did take some flack for it and mostly from my wonderful but massively opinionated step mother, a true New Yorker. She was sort of from the W.C. Fields school in her opinions about Philadelphia and would say things such as: "Why would anyone who is a real New York such as you and me ever want to go into the hinterlands to a provincial place like Philadelphia----for Christ's Sake, when they give toasts down there at debutante parties they don't even bother to stand up?"

TEPaul

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2008, 09:53:28 AM »
"TE
So would you add being good friends to the criteria of living in Philadelphia? Are there any other criteria?"

Mr. MacWood:

We feel a sort of unique characteristic of the original Philadelphia School of Architecture was the unusual amount of collaboration amongst its early participants. That was apparently borne of the fact that they were all good friends and frequent golfing companions, and they were all very good players. Another interesting fact of those five is four of them basically began in what we call the "amateur/sportsman" mode, an idea you've referred to in the past on here as 'my schtick".   ;)

However, I think it is pretty clear to see that a number of others before me identified these interesting characteristics of the so-called "Philadelphia School of Architecture."

Perhaps you should contact Geoff Shackelford about this to see what he has to say about it. You have heard of Geoff Shackelford, haven't you?

wsmorrison

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2008, 10:05:16 AM »
Mike Sweeney.

I was born in Philadelphia though moved to the suburbs early in life.  I spent 6 years at the University of Pennsylvania as an undergrad and grad student and lived in Philadelphia for another 6 years while working at 19th and Market Streets for about 17 years.  I did commute to NYC for 7 years.  It was grueling, but stayed close to my Philadelphia roots.   I am a Philadelphian and proud of it!   Still, I certainly don't mind living and playing on the Main Line though ;)

Tom MacWood,

Why are you so obsessed with all things Philadelphia these days?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2008, 10:07:03 AM »
TE
Obviously Geoff Shackelford is free to join in to the discusion, as is Ron Whitten who wrote about something similar with Cornish.

I assume the one of five that does not fall into your amateur/sportsman catagory is Flynn. Right? I'm not sure Tilly falls into that catagory either, since he made a very good living selling his golf architecture services. Did Thomas charge for his services in Calfornia?

It doesn't appear the amateur/sportsman stipulation would be a good one in this case.

Is there a time frame?


Mike_Cirba

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2008, 10:08:55 AM »


Tom MacWood,

You can find most of the early practitioners of the Philadelphia School in this photo.

Also at this meeting (according to the GAP meeting minutes), but evidently camera-shy were A.H. (Ab) Smith, George Klauder, George Crump, & Father Simon Carr.

This would have been a little early for Flynn and Thomas, both of whom were spawned from these guys.

Rich Goodale

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2008, 10:10:30 AM »
Dan

KBM and Hanse are called Philadelphia Schoolers whereas the ODGs are called Philadelphia Schoolies.

It's all explained here.

Generationally yours
Mark

Markers

In British cricketing terms--Tillers, Thomers, Crumpers and Hughers would be easily distinguished from Flynnie, Twomeyie and (I assume) Hansey and Morani.

Cringeingly yours

Goodie

wsmorrison

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2008, 10:11:45 AM »
Tom MacWood,

I'm surprised you didn't know that Max Behr was particularly upset with George Thomas because he missed out on a significant CA project because, as Behr saw it, Thomas would do the work for free and Behr was to be paid.

Rich Goodale

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2008, 10:12:47 AM »


Tom MacWood,

You can find most of the early practitioners of the Philadelphia School in this photo.

Also at this meeting (according to the GAP meeting minutes), but evidently camera-shy were A.H. (Ab) Smith, George Klauder, George Crump, & Father Simon Carr.

This would have been a little early for Flynn and Thomas, both of whom were spawned from these guys.

Mike

You forgot the middle-aged TE Paul on the far left with the Marlboro in his hand....

Thomas MacWood

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2008, 10:13:25 AM »
Mike
Great photo. My focus was immediately drawn to Perrin. Would you put him into the group?

What criteria would you put forth?

Mike_Cirba

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2008, 10:18:25 AM »
Tom,

It depends how narrowly or broadly you want to define it.  Are we talking only those who actually did collaborative course design and building or are we also talking the moneymen and movers and shakers?

For someone who doesn't believe it exists you sure have a lot of questions about it.  ;)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2008, 10:22:40 AM »
Tom,

It depends how narrowly or broadly you want to define it.  Are we talking only those who actually did collaborative course design and building or are we also talking the moneymen and movers and shakers?

For someone who doesn't believe it exists you sure have a lot of questions about it.  ;)

Well Mike, you know what they say, if you can't define it you don't understand it.

I think this is an excellent question.  What exactly was the Philadelphia School, who was included in this group and why were they included?  There is no point in having the notion of a Philadelphia School floating about if nobody knows exactly what it was.

Ciao
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 10:25:46 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas MacWood

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2008, 10:23:44 AM »
Mike
Perrin claimed he was involved in the design of PV.

Mark Bourgeois

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2008, 10:28:36 AM »
Cracker of a post, Goodie!

Sorry if someone already has made the point, but a "school" in this regard should speak to a design philosophy or an aesthetic.

It should relate to a geography only if that philo or look is distinct to the area, or practiced / invented by a group local to the area, like Bauhaus.

If it's just a bunch of guys from a place then that's not really a school. Its more like a "colony" - or clever marketing by a second tier member of this "school."

Mark

TEPaul

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2008, 10:31:11 AM »
"Tom MacWood,
Why are you so obsessed with all things Philadelphia these days?"


Wayne:

Are you into rhetorical questions now too? Something tells me that you, like the rest of us around here, can probably answer that question plenty well. It seems Mr. MacWood has gotten a bit mixed up between what some have referred to as the "Philadelphia School of Golf Architecture" and what Mr. MacWood himself has coigned the "Philadelphia Syndrome". ;)

Mr. MacWood obviously fancies himself as the ultimate independent, expert iconoclast always on the hunt to demolish "Legends" and Philadelphia and its legendary Philly School architects seems to be and to have been for some time now, like the last five plus years, his primary iconoclastic "Legend Demolishing" focus.

Scratch that---it's more like his primary iconoclastic "Legend Demolishing" fixation!   ::)

TEPaul

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2008, 10:45:36 AM »
"Well Mike, you know what they say, if you can't define it you don't understand it.
I think this is an excellent question.  What exactly was the Philadelphia School, who was included in this group and why were they included?  There is no point in having the notion of a Philadelphia School floating about if nobody knows exactly what it was."


Sean:

See post #7 and Geoff Shackelford's take and definition of who the original Philly School guys were. That to date has worked for me or for us around here but as of now if someone else wants to add to who they were I see no reason not to do that.

As mentioned, the theme of the Philly School was all about close-connection, friendship and architectural collaboration.


Thomas MacWood

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2008, 10:47:19 AM »
"Tom MacWood,
Why are you so obsessed with all things Philadelphia these days?"


Wayne:

Are you into rhetorical questions now too? Something tells me that you, like the rest of us around here, can probably answer that question plenty well. It seems Mr. MacWood has gotten a bit mixed up between what some have referred to as the "Philadelphia School of Golf Architecture" and what Mr. MacWood himself has coigned the "Philadelphia Syndrome". ;)

Mr. MacWood obviously fancies himself as the ultimate independent, expert iconoclast always on the hunt to demolish "Legends" and Philadelphia and its legendary Philly School architects seems to be and to have been for some time now, like the last five plus years, his primary iconoclastic "Legend Demolishing" focus.

Scratch that---it's more like his primary iconoclastic "Legend Demolishing" fixation!   ::)

TE
If you (or anyone else) are uncomfortable discussing a subject you have written two articles on and have referenced too many times to count, thats OK with me. On the other hand if you would rather analyze my supposed motives or put forth some crazy conspiracy theory I would appreciate it if you did so on another thread.