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Dan Herrmann

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Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #50 on: August 26, 2008, 01:46:04 PM »
Mike - I agree.

Findlay courses, at the ones I've seen, aren't close to the design quality of "The Philadelphia School" architects.

TEPaul

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #51 on: August 26, 2008, 01:51:59 PM »
While Donald Ross did some very fine work here in Philadelphia I don't think he was ever even remotely part of the so-called "Philly School's" five architects' crowd who were again all close friends and natural collaborators.

It may even be somewhat indicative why my own club picked Ross to design that course. Essentially GMGC was founded as a group of discontented "break-aways" from MCC. Their particularly discontent was over the massive crowding of the East and West courses as early as 1915 or 1916. Their "Theme" for GMGC was that it should never have overcrowding and never have tee times. Remarkably that "theme" is very much still intact today over 80 years later.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 03:44:57 PM by TEPaul »

Peter Pallotta

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #52 on: August 26, 2008, 02:00:24 PM »
The Big Five sound like classic modernists* to me, honouring established and/or traditional principles while enriching and expanding the application of those principles in new and varied ways.

Dare I say, the Philadelphia School was at the same time the AMERICAN School.

Peter
* There's probably a specific definition of that term, and I'm using it wrong.



Thomas MacWood

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #53 on: August 26, 2008, 02:03:50 PM »
George Thomas highlighted working with Ross at Philadelphia Cricket. Crump invited Ross to PV. Heebner brought Ross in to redesign Whitemarsh. Ross was a most respected figure in golf architecture and the fact he was so active in the area must have had some influence. I wouldn't be surpised if Flynn picked up a few things from the old man.

Wayne Wiggins, Jr.

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #54 on: August 26, 2008, 02:43:48 PM »
George Thomas highlighted working with Ross at Philadelphia Cricket. Crump invited Ross to PV. Heebner brought Ross in to redesign Whitemarsh. Ross was a most respected figure in golf architecture and the fact he was so active in the area must have had some influence. I wouldn't be surpised if Flynn picked up a few things from the old man.

I think the one thing that Flynn picked-up (or picked-off as it were) was the plum assignment of Philadelphia CC's new Spring Mill course.  I think TEPaul and Wayne Morrison can speak better about this, but that really seemed to have frosted Ross and he intended to make his next Phila. area course - Aronimink's new layout in Newtown Square - THE championship course in the district.  Whether that happened or not is a matter of another debate.  And, maybe this commission - AGC - is the antithesis of the Philadelphia School design by someone who was the outsider to this group. 

And, on this thought does anyone know if Aronimink considered any of the Phila. School guys when they were looking for an architect?  Was Flynn in the running?  How about Tilly, since he was the major player at Aronimink's previous iteration?

Thomas MacWood

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #55 on: August 26, 2008, 03:19:04 PM »
Wayne
What about Aronomink would make it the anithesis of the Philadelphia School?

By that late date Flynn's architectural development was well formed. I was thinking Ross may have had an impact upon him in his formative years - the period when he chose to get into golf construction/design when Ross was The Man in Boston and in the teens & early 20s in Philadelphia when Ross was the dominate player.

TEPaul

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #56 on: August 26, 2008, 03:55:15 PM »
Mr. MacWood:

Apparently you are fairly completely missing the point of what the so-called "Philadelphia School of Design" was and why, at least to us and apparently to the likes of Geoff Shackelford.

It doesn't mean at all that Ross was not a great golf architect too or that he did not do some really good work in this town. All it means to me or to us is that Ross was just never a part of that tight-knit group of friends from here who were real collaborators on a few of the best projects around here that became famous.

Ross for whatever the reasons, his reasons or their reasons just was never part of that tight-knit group we've called "The Philadelphia School of Design."

But you can include anyone you want in whatever you think the "Philadelphia School of Design" was---I'm quite sure we couldn't care less about that. Most here have never seemed to put much of any stock in most of your odd and seemingly endlessly challenging opinions on architects and architecture regarding Philadephia anyway, so there's probably no real reason to try to start now.  ;)

But I do have a really great subject for you and for me to discuss. I think if done properly it very well could be one of the best discussions this website has ever seen. The only question in my mind is whether you would or could engage, or even understand how to, at this point.

Do you want to hear it? 
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 03:58:19 PM by TEPaul »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #57 on: August 26, 2008, 04:07:10 PM »
Ross also did some work on the old Philly Cricket Club which may have been his first venture into the region.

Not a philly school guy tho

Thomas MacWood

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #58 on: August 26, 2008, 04:17:54 PM »
TE
Flynn and Wilson were tight. Thomas and Tillinghast worked together. Crump and Tillinghast were tight. Thomas and Wilson were tight.

Was Flynn tight with Tillinghast, Crump or Thomas? Was Wilson tight with Crump or Tillinghast?  Was Thomas tight with Crump?


Thomas MacWood

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2008, 04:24:42 PM »
Ross also did some work on the old Philly Cricket Club which may have been his first venture into the region.

Not a philly school guy tho

Mike
When we looked at Philadelphia golf circa 1922, which basically included courses from 1908 to 1922, the height of the Philadelphia School, the breakdown of design/redesign attribution was as follows:

Ross-8
Wilson-6
Tillinghast-4
Meehan-4
Park-2
A.Smith-2
Heebner-2
J.Reid-2
Tucker-2
Klauder-2
Crump/Colt-1
Thomas-1
Sayers-1
Findlay-1
Lewis/Lindsay-1
Handford-1
Wickersham/Franklin-1
Flynn-1
Barker-1

Why would you exclude the man who was the most prolific in the city during that period?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 04:26:37 PM by Tom MacWood »

Mike Sweeney

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2008, 04:25:01 PM »
While potentially fire stoking, I would be intereted to know if CB Mac and George Thomas ever met or had a relationship?

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #61 on: August 26, 2008, 04:36:43 PM »
What about Frank Furness?

"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Thomas MacWood

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #62 on: August 26, 2008, 05:02:49 PM »
How about William Lighfoot Price?

Phil_the_Author

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #63 on: August 26, 2008, 05:11:52 PM »
Tom Mac,

You asked if Tilly was "tight" with Flynn. Tilly liked Flynn and his work to the point that he recommended Flynn for work.

You also stated, "When we looked at Philadelphia golf circa 1922, which basically included courses from 1908 to 1922, the height of the Philadelphia School, the breakdown of design/redesign attribution was as follows:

Ross-8
Wilson-6
Tillinghast-4

Can you be more specific? What is the area that you've defined for this statement. For example, I have Tilly having designed or redesigned at least 9 courses in Pennsylvania by 1922, not including at least another 5 that were probably done by that date but which acn't be stated for certainty. This DOESN'T include a number of courses in New Jersey that Philadelphia golfers would have both played and been members of.

what he did at pine Valley

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #64 on: August 26, 2008, 05:18:12 PM »
Tom Mac,

By your recent figuring, everyone who has designed a course in Chicago would be a member of the mythical "Chicago School".  For that matter, all the modern architects working in China now would someday be in the China school. And, the American Society of Golf Course Architects would be the "Anywhere Society of Golf Course Architects."

Besides the fact that it makes sense to organize on where people lived, or started their careers, as others have said, Geoff Shac coined the phrase for his own convenience in organizing his fine book.  I think he has dibs on who is in and who is out anyway. 

Short version, yeah, I would leave Ross out.  No big whup to have him in there anyway.  I believe he was his own damn school according to Geoff.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

TEPaul

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #65 on: August 26, 2008, 05:52:00 PM »
"Was Flynn tight with Tillinghast, Crump or Thomas? Was Wilson tight with Crump or Tillinghast?  Was Thomas tight with Crump?"


Mr. MacWood:

All good and interesting questions. I have some ideas but you must understand none of them you asked about actually wrote about or spoke about their relationships specifically with one another, that I'm aware of, other than those few times in the forwards of their books that most all of us are well aware of at this point, and so it's the little things we've run across over the years that allow me to answer questions like that always knowing they can only be my speculations and conjecture.

Flynn and Tillinghast?
I think those two were just fine with one another and that seems to be borne out by the fact that apparently Flynn's construction arm hooked up with Tillie over Sunnehanna, at least and maybe more. You need to understand Flynn and Toomey and Flynn had a really dedicated crew, a number of whom lived at their Bucks County farm where a lot of independent agronomic research and experimentation was carried out. I'm not sure Tillie ever had that kind of dedicated construction crew and that may've been the reason he hooked up with Flynn over Sunnehanna. I believe Tillie also recommended Flynn for PCC. So I think those two were tight---eg typical Philly School type collaboration the way we think of it.

Flynn and Crump and Thomas?

I think they were all tight and that seems to be borne out by the fact that Thomas and Flynn were apparently both members of Pine Valley when Crump was still around. Geoff Shack also believes Thomas returned from California to oversee the construction of a couple of greens or at least one after Crump died. The one in particular may've been right nine that was done to Alison's specs.

Wilson and Crump and Wilson and Tillinghast?

Wilson never mentioned Tillie that I know of but he did mention Crump a lot in those many years of the "agronomy letters". But it seems odd to me for some reason with Wilson and Crump but that just may be that Wilson really was an awful humble guy about the things he was doing and did. I think Wilson (Hugh) was always a member of PV and I think Crump may've given him carte blanche, at least with things agronomic but in many ways his brother Alan was far more plugged in and participatory at Pine Valley through Crump's life and afterwards. But the reason for that is Alan was never remotely involved in other projects and certainly in Merion East and West to the degree Hugh was.

It looks to me like Hugh Wilson had more to do with PV and was down there a whole lot more for whatever reason than Crump was at Merion. But that might be explained by the sort of odd arrangement of Crump's life and where he lived and how. Crump, as a man, was probably the most complex of all and most interestingly without really showing it. Everyone who knew him seemed to love him---he apparently was humble, kind and gracious with a good self-deprecating sense of humor while at the same time being driven and focused but with some demons under the surface which you probably caught in your essay on him as well as anyone. Crump really did solicit seemingly anyone and everyone's opinion on things but if he didn't want to do something he just didn't do it and he never bothered to criticize anyone for their suggestions with perhaps the famously notable example of Colt's idea for his 2nd green placement. The way Crump ultimately dealt with Travis' public proposal to make PV reversible (apparently initially encouraged by Crump) is a good example of how Crump was with most everyone to do with the architecture down there, in my opinion.

Tillie was certaianly a confidante to Crump going way back to ACCC when they all played so much golf together but for some odd reason Tillie was never a member of PV when everyone else we're talking about seemed to be, even though Tillie pretty obviously had some serious input on a few things to do with the design of PV.

Ross on the other hand didn't seem to get involved much with that crowd, at least not at that time. When Ross saw Pine Valley that one and only time when Crump was around it was not Crump who had him down there it was someone else who reported to Crump later what Ross said about PV which was impressive.

Maybe the Philly School guys didn't really let Ross in but I think it was Ross who probably figured he didn't exactly need them. Ross had his own impressive operation and group he depended on all of whom basically worked for him not with him. Ross was not the type who naturally wanted to freely collaborate with other architects that much. He had his own impressive reputation, his own ideas and should probably be considered to have had his own unique "school" in the history and evolution of American architecture. Geoff Shackelford gave him his own "school" in his book "The Golden Age of Golf Design" as well he should have, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 06:04:27 PM by TEPaul »

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #66 on: August 26, 2008, 06:17:32 PM »
"Was Flynn tight with Tillinghast, Crump or Thomas? Was Wilson tight with Crump or Tillinghast?  Was Thomas tight with Crump?"

Ross on the other hand didn't seem to get involved much with that crowd, at least not at that time. When Ross saw Pine Valley that one and only time when Crump was around it was not Crump who had him down there it was someone else who reported to Crump later what Ross said about PV which was impressive.

Maybe the Philly School guys didn't really let Ross in but I think it was Ross who probably figured he didn't exactly need them. Ross had his own impressive operation and group he depended on all of whom basically worked for him not with him. Ross was not the type who naturally wanted to freely collaborate with other architects that much. He had his own impressive reputation, his own ideas and should probably be considered to have had his own unique "school" in the history and evolution of American architecture. Geoff Shackelford gave him his own "school" in his book "The Golden Age of Golf Design" as well he should have, in my opinion.


TomP

I don't see how Ross would have time to sit around drinking Pimms with a crew of public school boy types.  The man was meant to be involved with something like 400 courses!  He was definitely making hay while the sun shined.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Thomas MacWood

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #67 on: August 26, 2008, 06:28:40 PM »
"Was Flynn tight with Tillinghast, Crump or Thomas? Was Wilson tight with Crump or Tillinghast?  Was Thomas tight with Crump?"


Mr. MacWood:

All good and interesting questions. I have some ideas but you must understand none of them you asked about actually wrote about or spoke about their relationships specifically with one another, that I'm aware of, other than those few times in the forwards of their books that most all of us are well aware of at this point, and so it's the little things we've run across over the years that allow me to answer questions like that always knowing they can only be my speculations and conjecture.

Flynn and Tillinghast?
I think those two were just fine with one another and that seems to be borne out by the fact that apparently Flynn's construction arm hooked up with Tillie over Sunnehanna, at least and maybe more. You need to understand Flynn and Toomey and Flynn had a really dedicated crew, a number of whom lived at their Bucks County farm where a lot of independent agronomic research and experimentation was carried out.

Fine is one thing, but would you consider them close? What was the name of the construction arm?

Flynn and Crump and Thomas?

I think they were all tight and that seems to be borne out by the fact that Thomas and Flynn were apparently both members of Pine Valley when Crump was still around. Geoff Shack also believes Thomas returned from California to oversee the construction of a couple of greens or at least one after Crump died. The one in particular may've been right nine that was done to Alison's specs.

I knew Thomas was a member, but had no idea Flynn was a member. When did Flynn become a member? Did Thomas mention working on PV in his book...I don't recall reading that? I'm not sure just being a co-member of club necessarily translates into being close.

Wilson and Crump and Wilson and Tillinghast?

Wilson never mentioned Tillie that I know of but he did mention Crump a lot in those many years of the "agronomy letters". But it seems odd to me for some reason with Wilson and Crump but that just may be that Wilson really was an awful humble guy about the things he was doing and did. I think Wilson (Hugh) was always a member of PV and I think Crump may've given him carte blanche, at least with things agronomic but in many ways his brother Alan was far more plugged in and participatory at Pine Valley through Crump's life and afterwards. But the reason for that is Alan was never remotely involved in other projects and certainly in Merion East and West to the degree Hugh was.

To my knoweldge Hugh Wilson was never a member of PV. Did you find any letters between Crump and Wilson or Crump and Piper, Oakley, Harban, et al?

It looks to me like Hugh Wilson had more to do with PV and was done there a whole lot more for whatever reason than Crump was at Merion. But that might be explained by the sort of odd arrangement of Crump's life and where he lived and how. Crump, as a man, was probably the most complex of all and most interestingly without really showing it. Everyone who knew him seemed to love him---he apparently was humble, kind and gracious with a good self-deprecating sense of humor while at the same time being driven and focused but with some demons under the surface which you probably caught in your essay on him as well as anyone. Crump really did solicit seemingly anyone and everyone's opinion on things but if he didn't want to do something he just didn't do it and he never bothered to criticize anyone for their suggestion with perhaps the famously notable example of Colt's idea for his 2nd green placement.

Wasn't Hugh Wilson's involvement after Crump died

Tillie was certaianly a confidante to Crump going way back to ACCC when they all played so much golf together but for some odd reason Tillie was never a member of PV when everyone else we're talking about seemed to be, even though Tillie pretty obviously had some serious input on a few things to do with the design of PV.

Ross on the other hand didn't seem to get involved much with that crowd, at least not at that time. When Ross saw Pine Valley that one and only time when Crump was around it was not Crump who had him down there it was someone else who reported to Crump later what Ross said about PV which was impressive.

Where does your Ross story at PV come from?

Maybe the Philly School guys didn't really let Ross in but I think it was Ross who probably figured he didn't exactly need them. Ross had his own impressive operation and group he depended on all of whom basically worked for him not with him. Ross was not the type who naturally wanted to freely collaborate with other architects that much. He had his own impressive reputation, his own ideas and should probably be considered to have had his own unique "school" in the history and evolution of American architecture.

I'm not sure Ross's operation was in full flight in the 1910s...at least the constrcution end. I reckon he used the same contractors the others used. If I'm not mistaken Gordon helped build some Ross courses. Based upon correspondence we know Tillinghast and Ross were friendly. Thomas and Ross were friendly. Crump and Ross we're not sure, but we do know Ross visited PV. Didn't Crump make a tour of all the best courses in the NE? Flynn grew up in Boston, and his Brother-in-Law collaborated with Ross. We don't know if Flynn's constuction arm was involved with Ross or not. There doesn't seem to be a Wilson-Ross connection although Ross did work on Seaview with Connolan, who was also involved at Merion-West. Did Wilson ever visit PV?

When you consider Ross's activity in the area, his relationship with a number of the main players and the fact he opened an office there, its difficult not to give him serious consideration.

« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 07:19:45 PM by Tom MacWood »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #68 on: August 26, 2008, 06:36:18 PM »
Tom Mac,

You asked if Tilly was "tight" with Flynn. Tilly liked Flynn and his work to the point that he recommended Flynn for work.

You also stated, "When we looked at Philadelphia golf circa 1922, which basically included courses from 1908 to 1922, the height of the Philadelphia School, the breakdown of design/redesign attribution was as follows:

Ross-8
Wilson-6
Tillinghast-4

Can you be more specific? What is the area that you've defined for this statement. For example, I have Tilly having designed or redesigned at least 9 courses in Pennsylvania by 1922, not including at least another 5 that were probably done by that date but which acn't be stated for certainty. This DOESN'T include a number of courses in New Jersey that Philadelphia golfers would have both played and been members of.

what he did at pine Valley


Phil
That was based on an exercise we did not long ago, when we set out to identify the best courses in Philadelphia circa 1922: Aronimink, Old York Road, Cedarbrook and Philadelphia Cricket. Feel free to add to the list.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 06:42:56 PM by Tom MacWood »

wsmorrison

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #69 on: August 26, 2008, 06:40:51 PM »
I do not accept the fact that 1922 was the height of the Philadelphia School, especially if you consider work outside of Philadelphia.  1922 is a convenient (for MacWood) and misleading date without any solid basis for use.  Tom MacWood, you clearly are missing the utile meaning of the term Philadelphia School.

I also suspect that your list is not all that accurate though I don't care enough to correct you.

What if the date chosen was 5 years later, say 1927?  Why couldn't that be considered the height?  What about 1928 or 1930?
« Last Edit: August 26, 2008, 06:51:02 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #70 on: August 26, 2008, 07:12:56 PM »
Wayne
Don't fret...Flynn is already in.

I used the numbers from 1908 to 1922 because that is what looked at on that other thread. Using that time frame was good for bringing attention to some unsung Philly architects. Feel free to push the date back to any date you would like. It don't believe its going to change who's in and those on the fence we are debating. Here are some candidates...tell us who should be in and who should be out and why.

Flynn
Ross
Wilson
Tillinghast
Meehan
A.Smith
Heebner
Klauder
Crump
Colt
Thomas
Findlay
McGovern

TEPaul

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #71 on: August 26, 2008, 07:24:53 PM »
Sean:

On your reply #66 about Ross, I think you're right. I don't see Ross thinking he needed those Philly School guys in any way. I think the only thing that may've bothered him a few times is some of them like Flynn got some of the projects around here Ross wanted to get. Ross was here a lot more than some realize in the 1920s, and one reason was his daughter lived here.

TEPaul

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #72 on: August 26, 2008, 07:33:38 PM »
"To my knoweldge Hugh Wilson was never a member of PV.


Mr. MacWood:

Maybe he never was a member of Pine Valley. Wayne and I have never checked the membership rolls of PV to find out, that I'm aware of. That would be an interestingly little trivia item to look into though. ;) But he did serve as the green chairman of PV for a time and that is pretty strange to contemplate, don't you think?---eg a green chairman of a club who has never actually been a member of the club. I suppose it may be possible in his particular case, and if that was the case it only goes to show just how much some of those "Philly School" guys really did collaborate amongst some courses around here.

Phil_the_Author

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #73 on: August 26, 2008, 07:39:58 PM »
Tom Mac,

I think you misunderstood what I meant. I wanted to know the geographical (miles from Philly) area that you used to determine the number of courses per architect. That is why I mentioned the number of courses that tilly had done in Pennsylvania. Obviously not all would qualify as Philadel[phia courses, but I believe a number of them in Jersey would depending on your distance requirements.

So, what area are you looking at in making this determination and specifically why that area?

TEPaul

Re: Philadelphia School
« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2008, 07:40:43 PM »
"Where does your Ross story at PV come from?"

From Pine Valley's archives, Mr. MacWood. If I run across the letter from the PV guy who mentioned he brought Ross down there in my files I'll be sure to tell you about it and who he was. Well, on second thought, there is the matter of that ridiculous "Pledge" of yours. What should I make of that, Mr. MacWood? Have you ever heard of the concept of QUID PRO QUO, Mr. MACWOOD? ;)