shapers

[Tom Lehman]

As  co-designers of one of the two (and hopefully eventually three) courses at the Prairie Club, Chris Brands and I feel compelled to make a statement about the amazing talents, passion and energy of our two main shapers, Kyle Franz and Will Smith.  Without being demeaning to anyone we have worked with previously, and there have been some men who have done some very good work,  we need to let all of you who care about golf and golf course architecture know that what they are doing with the routing we have chosen is simply a work of art, and these two men are deserving of every single bit of praise they they will undoubtedly get.  Chris and I want to be the first to say it publicly and in this forum full of people who share that same passion for golf.

[George Pazin]

Welcome to the site, hope you share more of your passion soon.

I believe Kyle's been mentioned on here before, but I don't think I've read anything about Will Smith before. Maybe you could share a little of each's background.

[Adam Clayman]

Welcome Tom.
 I met Will Smith (who looks nothing like his namesake) at Ballyneal's appreciation party. I must've met him before because he was so congenial like we had met before. He encouraged me to come up and see the work in progress. Sadly, I was unable to swing up that way on my recent trek around Lake Michigan. Perhaps in the fall.

Everyone is expecting great things from you and Graham from that site It's good to hear that you've hired the right guys for the task at hand. Good Luck with all your future golf and designs.

[Tom Lehman]

Welcome Tom.
 I met Will Smith (who looks nothing like his namesake) at Ballyneal's appreciation party. I must've met him before because he was so congenial like we had met before. He encouraged me to come up and see the work in progress. Sadly, I was unable to swing up that way on my recent trek around Lake Michigan. Perhaps in the fall.

Everyone is expecting great things from you and Graham from that site It's good to hear that you've hired the right guys for the task at hand. Good Luck with all your future golf and designs.

Thank you Adam.. Will is Mr. Congeniality, a truly good guy

[Greg Krueger]

As a fellow Minnesotan, welcome to the group!! Looking forward to your perspectives and insight.

[RJ_Daley]

I feel very lucky to have met one of the key players at the renewed effort at the Prairie Club, having been graciously hosted by Mark Ammundson a couple times at Sutton Bay.  Anything he is associated with has a great head start.  And, having met Dr. Trimble and Gil and Geoff and actually been with them on the prairie club land tinkerng with the original routing shooting centerlines to turning points and green centers along the route was one of my best experiences. 

The plan changed and the team changed, but the land is the land, and the new team obviously has great pedigree with Tom and Chris with Graham, and the shapers Franz and Smith. (Too bad they aren't Franz and Hans) 

Seriously, the land is so great that it is obviously being expressed by Tom Lehman in his praise and enthusiasm to give credit to these gents for their work. 

But, this is Golf Club Atlas Tom, and we can get pretty critical and demanding about GCA.     So, I'm asking you:  Can you describe the balance and method of approach that these fine shapers under the architects vision have struck when treading upon the land, in that a goal is obviously to preserve the natural contouring that is so remarkable and ideal as it exists out there while making great golf strategy?   

I have been saying for nearly 10 years on this site now that one of these Sand Hills projects needs to really do a full video documentation of the work as it proceeds.  We did see some great photos of BallyNeal's land when first proposed in a sort of photo essay done largely by the turf consultant, Dave Wilbur.  I also visited the construction site and am happy I got some great photos of the raw land with the TPs and green stakes to compare them to the final product. 

What Gil and his crew did at Castle Stuart with U-tube videos is really remarkable.  I wish such would be done with the Prairie Club, because it is THAT HIGHLY ANTICIPATED! 

Tom, your team's project there in Valentine has all the potential to be in the pantheon of the truly great ones.   Good Luck, and please have good photography to document the work as it proceeds.  If nothing else, it would make a great coffee table book, that we GCA freaks would probably scoop up enthusiastically to display and enjoy.   

[Tom_Doak]

Tom L:

I'm sure you know, but others don't, that both Kyle and Will have spent the previous five years working around some of our projects ... Kyle worked at Pacific Dunes (second installment), Barnbougle, Stone Eagle and Aetna Springs, while Will worked on The Sheep Ranch and Aetna Springs, among others.

They are both quite talented, and it's a testament to the other guys who have been working with us that I could let either of them go help someone else ... but to keep all of those guys busy, I myself would go insane trying to keep track of them all.  And both of them were probably sick of being the sixth man on the squad for me.

I just hope you have found enough other guys to give them the help they need.  It takes more than two guys to build a great golf course, even when they are good ones -- that's the reality that most architects don't want to face.

[JWinick]

Tom:

Welcome to the site.  Last year I had the privilege to play Windsong Farms, one of your earliest designs.   I thought the golf course was outstanding and a lot of fun.   If you have any pictures that you can share with the site, it would be much appreciated.

Best,

Jon

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Welcome and we greatly look forward to your participation.   

I enjoyed the North course at The Gallery a great deal.

[John Kavanaugh]

They are both quite talented, and it's a testament to the other guys who have been working with us that I could let either of them go help someone else ... but to keep all of those guys busy, I myself would go insane trying to keep track of them all.  And both of them were probably sick of being the sixth man on the squad for me.

Tom Doak,

Let me be the first to thank you for not only taking a pass on every decent project currently being built so that others in your profession can find work but also allowing them to scoop up your discarded employees so that in some way, we the golfers, may get a taste off your genius even if second hand.  I hope Kyle and Will took good notes while in your stead.  Thank God that Pete Dye had the vision to allow you and so many other fine architects the opportunity to move on no matter how much it must have hurt at the time.  If Lehman is familiar with your writings he will ignore your design advice and ask you for some putting tips.

[Sean Leary]

They are both quite talented, and it's a testament to the other guys who have been working with us that I could let either of them go help someone else ... but to keep all of those guys busy, I myself would go insane trying to keep track of them all.  And both of them were probably sick of being the sixth man on the squad for me.

Tom Doak,

Let me be the first to thank you for not only taking a pass on every decent project currently being built so that others in your profession can find work but also allowing them to scoop up your discarded employees so that in some way, we the golfers, may get a taste off your genius even if second hand.  I hope Kyle and Will took good notes while in your stead.  Thank God that Pete Dye had the vision to allow you and so many other fine architects the opportunity to move on no matter how much it must have hurt at the time.  If Lehman is familiar with your writings he will ignore your design advice and ask you for some putting tips.

JK,

I truly appreciate your brutal honesty, buddy, but that one is not fair.

[John Kavanaugh]

Is it really important to know every project that Doak turned down and now every employee he let go.  I know it is a stretch but maybe some people want to hire other architects and employees move on under their own accord.  I saw Doaks post as nothing but bravado on a thread that should have celebrated the talent of two great shapers.

Do you really want me to name all the courses that Doak took a pass on and now suffer because of it?  I'm sure it happens and am surprised if I am the only person who finds it crass and unethical to mention after the job is completed.  To now say that Kyle and Will were unhappy in their role as benchwarmers is what is not fair to either them or the course that will be built.  What good has come from planting seeds of doubt about their ability to make the Doak team?  When I first read this thread I did not consider them at best the sixth and seventh best shapers going.

I know I need to just let these things pass and look for happy things.  Sorry.

[Michael Dugger]

Is it really important to know every project that Doak turned down and now every employee he let go.  I know it is a stretch but maybe some people want to hire other architects and employees move on under their own accord.  I saw Doaks post as nothing but bravado on a thread that should have celebrated the talent of two great shapers.

Do you really want me to name all the courses that Doak took a pass on and now suffer because of it?  I'm sure it happens and am surprised if I am the only person who finds it crass and unethical to mention after the job is completed.  To now say that Kyle and Will were unhappy in their role as benchwarmers is what is not fair to either them or the course that will be built.  What good has come from planting seeds of doubt about their ability to make the Doak team?  When I first read this thread I did not consider them at best the sixth and seventh best shapers going.

I know I need to just let these things pass and look for happy things.  Sorry.

You are such a douchebag sometimes Kavanaugh.

It must suck to work for you.

[RJ_Daley]

JK, I for one will sign on to that, and the theme of your post is one that I considered and even IM'd someone of, but then backed off in a bit of conflict avoidance mentality.  But OK, while I'm not often down with you on many of your provocations, I think this call-out is fair.  We don't need TDs or the Flynn threads and others, using damning with faint praise.  Cleverly concealing a put-down in a superficially praising subject isn't beyond many of us to pick up on...

I'm really greatful that other professional archies, supers,  constructors, writers, and those in their associated fields wade through the caddiness of GCA sometimes, and still give us their best takes - that we may learn and advance on the subjects.  

[Sean Leary]

Is it really important to know every project that Doak turned down and now every employee he let go.  I know it is a stretch but maybe some people want to hire other architects and employees move on under their own accord.  I saw Doaks post as nothing but bravado on a thread that should have celebrated the talent of two great shapers.

Do you really want me to name all the courses that Doak took a pass on and now suffer because of it?  I'm sure it happens and am surprised if I am the only person who finds it crass and unethical to mention after the job is completed.  To now say that Kyle and Will were unhappy in their role as benchwarmers is what is not fair to either them or the course that will be built.  What good has come from planting seeds of doubt about their ability to make the Doak team?  When I first read this thread I did not consider them at best the sixth and seventh best shapers going.

I know I need to just let these things pass and look for happy things.  Sorry.

Fair enough.

[JWinick]

There's nothing wrong with Tom Doak developing talent and that talent moving on to other projects either solo or with other architects.   I don't see what the issue is here.   Tom noting that they were former employees does not discredit them at all.  I'm sure each of them would cite Mr. Doak as a positive role in their respective careers.

[CHrisB]

John K,
I too had the same gut reaction as you and RJDaley when reading Tom D's post. Hard to interpret it as other than "your best guys are great, but they couldn't crack my top 5". Probably not his intent, but that's how it came across, to some of us anyway. But it's a delicate situation--Tom Doak is probably the only one on here whose posts I make sure not to miss, but I wouldn't want either to post less often, or be less honest, out of fear of his words or intentions being dissected too much.

[John Kavanaugh]

Doak may well be the only golf critic in the world with the balls to publish honest opinions about golf courses he didn't like under his own name.  In hard copy no less.  When he is wrong I am sure he would rather hear the truth and learn from it than have his shoes polished by a bunch of groupies. 

A day or so ago Forest Richardson was lambasted by a hickory playing Golfweek rater and no one came to his defense.  It took less than an hour for more than one person to question Tom Lehman's credentials as a designer because he happens to be a great golfer.  Doak is a fine and successful architect who may the best in his field today and even has designed three of the greatest courses in the history of the world (Golf Magazine).  I think he can take a little heat when it is warranted.

[Jim_Kennedy]

I hope we don't see Tom Lehman posting on the weekends. 

[Michael Dugger]

John K,
I too had the same gut reaction when reading Tom D's post. Hard to interpret it as other than "your best guys are great, but they couldn't crack my top 5". Probably not his intent, but that's how it came across, to some of us anyway. But it's a delicate situation--Tom Doak is probably the only one on here whose posts I make sure not to miss, but I wouldn't want either to post less often, or be less honest, out of fear of his words or intentions being dissected too much.

I don't get where you guys are going with this.

What I got from Tom's post is he CHOOSES to only work a certain number of jobs at the same time.

This is something we usually praise "minimalists" for.....using their own people to build the courses, therfore keeping the size of their crew down precisely because they only work a certain number of jobs at the same time.....

He even said as much, it would drive him insane to keep track of where everyone was.

In leiu of current market conditions, there is probably less work now than ever....

Let's say the two mentioned individuals are right up there with Urbina and Hepner when it comes to shaping......almost as good......just about as good......maybe a fraction better...

Who is really going to split that hair???  You John Kavanaugh?

And for two, seniority must count for something in this game, right???  

Names mean something, right?  If not, why did Mark O'Meara design the Total Piece of Crap of Valencia?

Maybe Doak just likes the way Urbina smells, or doesn't like how Franz chews his food...

Mountain out of molehills here.....geez.

[Mark Pearce]

Michael,

You post a lot of sense and seem to have a similar low tolerance for some of the pointless bitching that goes on around here as me.  I'm also a fan of Tom Doak and his work.  I'm sorry to say though that his post caused me to react as JK and Chris Brauner.  I hope I'm wrong but it read badly to me ("quite" talented?  How damning with faint praise can you be?).

Mark

[Dan Herrmann]

It is truly important to keep in mind just how important shapers have been throughout the history of GCA.  Whether it's with today's bulldozers or the 1890's animal-powered ploughs, they've been the guys that brought the architect's vision to light.

Good ones like Kyle and Will should be acknowledged and applauded!

I hope that someday I'll be able to enjoy the fruits of their labor on Tom L's designs.

[George Pazin]

Tom D's post perfectly illustrates why Tiger never gives anything other than a pat, politically correct answer to anything.

The cynicism, bitterness and envy on this site sometimes boggles the mind. It is especially galling to see Jax praised for his honesty.

[TX Golf]

Well at least Mr. Lehman is getting a good look at what this site is all about, in his first ever post nonetheless....

[Michael Dugger]

Michael,

You post a lot of sense and seem to have a similar low tolerance for some of the pointless bitching that goes on around here as me.  I'm also a fan of Tom Doak and his work.  I'm sorry to say though that his post caused me to react as JK and Chris Brauner.  I hope I'm wrong but it read badly to me ("quite" talented?  How damning with faint praise can you be?).

Mark

'Tis a fine line between self confidence and arrogance.