[Patrick_Mucci]

in the world ?

# 15 at Ridgewood, which plays at about a maximum of 155 and usually shorter seems to have held its own, especially when the hole is cut far left.

And, the green isn't particularly difficult to putt.

# 5 seems to have held up rather well, even with having the tees moved up.

Are small, well protected greens the answer ?

When they're hitting a 3-wood off the tee on a 500 yard, dogleg, uphill par 4, doesn't that tell you that length is not the defining feature to a hole's difficulty for PGA Tour Pros ?  (It's certainly a major factor for most golfers)

Will the USGA revisit the distance issue and offer a prudent, timely solution ?

Or, will it be Augusta that attempts to resolve the issue ?

[JESII]

Pat,

I think you identified the solution to the distance issue in the first half and then fell back on your old chant about someone artificially fixing it in the end...

Short holes that are well defended ARE the answer.  Firmness is part of that answer.

If these guys played holes like 5 and 15 all the time they would voluntarily use softer balls...I guarantee it!

[John Moore II]

Yes, small well protected greens are certainly one of the best defense mechanisms for making a golf course difficult. And when you add in some real sporty internal and external contours, its great. Yardage has very little bearing on how they play shots, I mean, these are players that his 3 wood-6 iron into that 500 yard par 4, 5 iron approach at max.
--The Bluecoats will do little or nothing to change distance, at least not anytime soon. It took 25 years to do anything of any effect as far as grooves go. That, as much as anything, might rachet back distance on its own.
--The Greenjackets will not do much to roll back distance either. They haven't so far, and they clearly could have madated at The Masters that a specific ball and specific club combination be used, but they didn't. So I feel it is not likely that they will.

[Sean Leary]

Pat or JES,

How do 8,12, and 17 at PV hold up in the Crump Cup?

[Mike_Cirba]

Sully is absolutely correct.

After playing the Kingsley Club again this past week under crunchingly firm and screamingly fast (but normal for them) conditions, there is no doubt in my mind that the only thing that creatively challenges today's player is for the game to begin after the ball hits the ground.

Thick, inches deep rough as exhibited at Oakland Hills is the other alternative, and it was criticized roundly and rightly so.   

If the game is to reward creativity, forethought, shotmaking, ballstriking, as well as athleticism, then we need to get back to a game that is more in tune with the rolling of a round ball along the ground.

[JESII]

Sean,

I think fine, but I do not have a memory of the average scores.

I guess in the context of the thread title; they would be among the easier holes on the course versus par but again, do not have the averages handy.

[Joe Hancock]

What does "hold up "better"" mean?.....Are you equating resistance to scoring to quality of golf?

Joe

[JESII]

Joe,

On this topic, it seems he is asking if shorter holes can be built so as not to be pushovers.

I think it's the right way to go in the distance debate...my opinion however is that it's more of a maintenance and preparation concern than architectural.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

I think that's a good point.

Firm & fast greens would seem to favor a softer ball, but, it's hard to maintain those conditions all the time.

[John Moore II]

JES II,

I think that's a good point.

Firm & fast greens would seem to favor a softer ball, but, it's hard to maintain those conditions all the time.

Hard to maintain all the time, yes. Hard to maintain for 1 week a year, while the Pro's are in town for an event, no. (if tour events are what we are talking about) With the new SubAir systems and such in greens, you can get the greens very firm overnight practically. Either way, a short hole with a very firm green, and small and undulated, would make a very, very good test and hold up for a long time against better players

[JESII]

JES II,

I think that's a good point.

Firm & fast greens would seem to favor a softer ball, but, it's hard to maintain those conditions all the time.

True...but I prefer the "as weather dictates" method of course prep...I would hate to see every course hosting and wishing to host a big event go to the expense of adding the SubAir systems.

What Ridgewood looked like on TV to me was the perfect combination of challenge. The green end has been well documented, but it also appeared (I have not been there) that they have to (I think it's important that they had to) shape their tee shots both directions.

Regardless of the firmness of the greens, it looked to me that if you wanted to hit a driver on 17 and 18 you were going to have to move the ball each way.

This type of ball control is what we want the best players in the world to demonstrate, and todays ball seems just out of control just often enough to convince me that if they played Ridgewood every week they would start playing softer balls and slightly smaller drivers heads soon enough...voluntarily.

[JESII]

The trouble with that message...especially 'round here...is that you need trees to force a particular shot shape...nothing else will do it.

Don't like it, don't play the back tees!

[Tom Lehman]

You are all spot on:  firm and fast conditions always leads to higher scoring and the necessity for hitting it in the fairway.  Unfortunately, firm and fast can also mean slightly brownish/green fairways and nearly blue greens.  In my opinion, the conditions needed for a ground game don't always produce the prettiest photograph and in the day and age where that is important, there seems to be somewhat of a built in catch 22.

[Ian_L]

Pat,

I think you identified the solution to the distance issue in the first half and then fell back on your old chant about someone artificially fixing it in the end...

Short holes that are well defended ARE the answer.  Firmness is part of that answer.

If these guys played holes like 5 and 15 all the time they would voluntarily use softer balls...I guarantee it!

But what about some of the great short holes that were challenging and are now becoming pushovers because good players are hitting 9-irons in instead of 6-irons?  I agree that firmer conditions will help, but it can only go so far, can't it? Should we just let those holes become easier?  For most courses, it's either very low scores, or drastically lengthened courses.

(Please remember I don't pretend to be an expert in golf architecture, so I'm not intending to challenge anybody here)

[Bill Brightly]

Pat,

The 15th green was REALLY firm. I marshalled that hole on Thursday and Friday and got to see about 150 shots. I'll guess the pros all hit 8 or 9 irons. Balls that landed in the middle of the green all rolled to the back of the green, many ended up 1 foot in the rough.

Switch that to a normal soft green and those same shots are inside 10 feet. FIRM stops birdies!

[Bill_McBride]

You are all spot on:  firm and fast conditions always leads to higher scoring and the necessity for hitting it in the fairway.  Unfortunately, firm and fast can also mean slightly brownish/green fairways and nearly blue greens.  In my opinion, the conditions needed for a ground game don't always produce the prettiest photograph and in the day and age where that is important, there seems to be somewhat of a built in catch 22.

Tom, that's the "Augusta syndrome" that's often lamented here on GCA.com.

It's too bad more Americans don't seek out the links golf experience in the British Isles to get the feeling of how good brown can be.  Green wouldn't be the most important thing if they would, and golf would be a lot more interesting in the US.

[Mike Policano]

Bill B and Tom,

The firmness of the greens, especially 15, provided an effective defense against scoring.  It also provoked a number of comments from spectators live and watching on tv that the greens weren't green and they don't look good. 

There almost needs to be an ad campaign about what fast and firm is and why it is better.  More brown (purple?) makes for more fun and challenge.

[Bill Brightly]

Mike,

It is a little more complicated than just education. The brown we saw was the poa wilting...You can do that for a few days in a tournament, but if the poa dies, there will be a mess left behind. Thank goodness that the weather was favorable for the event; not TOO hot and fairly cool nights.

Our superintendent and I have this battle with the A players at my course all the time. Their mantra is "Skin 'em and roll 'em, weather conditions be damned..." I can sell brown grass, but not dirt!

[archie_struthers]

 

As to the short holes at Pine Valley number eight was almost always one of the highest stroke averages to par in just about every tournament I witnessed in  late seventies and  early eighties...

#12 generally played easy...I would imagine 12 plays even easier today although the use of the back tee changes things a bit...

#10's difficulty pretty much spiked with the wind ...


one of the best stories is of a natioinal amateur calibre player hitting 16 greens and shooting 81 in the Crump qualifier.. in great part due to a smooth eleven on #8 , after hitting a perfect drive to 90 yards he bunkered his second ..and played criss cross for about five minutes

 ...so it goes on  eight, one of the best short holes on the planet

[JESII]

I seem to remember hearing that in the Walker Cup, #8 had the highest stroke average.

I can only speak from experience that I have not seen any disasters there, and typically when someone gets in a bit of trouble they are able to get out and make a 5 or 6...Archie, any thoughts if the 60 degree wedge has muted the difficulty of this hole for the top amateur players?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bill B and Tom,

The firmness of the greens, especially 15, provided an effective defense against scoring.  It also provoked a number of comments from spectators live and watching on tv that the greens weren't green and they don't look good. 

There almost needs to be an ad campaign about what fast and firm is and why it is better.  More brown (purple?) makes for more fun and challenge.

Mike,

Unfortunately, I think that's become an almost universal perception by the average viewer/golfer.

The question is:

What can be done to change that perception ?

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()