[Thomas MacWood]

In a letter dated April 30, 1927 Howard Toomey wrote that Flynn had three courses open. What three courses was he referring to?

[Michael Blake]

My guess:

Cherry Hills
Cascades
Manufacturers

[Gerry B]

mill road farm was opened in 1926 according ot daniel wexler's book as was yorktown country club - both flynn courses - but mill road farm had only 1 member - albert lasker

[wsmorrison]

Why don't you post the entire letter.  Or don't you think context matters?

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne

His direct quote:

 "Flynn, who has had twenty years experience, not only in the architectural and but in the construction and upkeep, also having the benefit of the advice of our dear old friend, Hugh Wilson, Dr. Harban, Dr. Piper and others, is not going to make any claims of what he has done.

Flynn has three courses open - he can publish this book in book form and sell it the same as the others - he can also run it in a series of twelve ot twenty-four chapters and have it published by Grantland Rice in the American Golfer and be paid for it - or, he can have the Bulletin run it in a series of articles and give it to them without cost which he is willing to do to help the cause along."

How is that taken out of context? What three courses do you believe he was referring to?

By the way the series was eventually run in the Bulletin. The letter was addressed to GT Cunninghm of the USGA Green Section.

[Thomas MacWood]

mill road farm was opened in 1926 according ot daniel wexler's book as was yorktown country club - both flynn courses - but mill road farm had only 1 member - albert lasker

Gerry
I'm wondering if Laskers course wasn't started in 1926 but not finished until after the letter.

[Mike_Cirba]

From my records of courses I've played, I'm seeing Green Valley, Manufacturers, Lancaster A9R9, Concord, 9 at Pocono Manor, & Rolling Green all in existence before 1927.

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike
Were they completed by April 1927? Were they all original designs of 18 holes? Is it possible Toomey was only referring to courses he was involved with?

[JESII]

Wayne

His direct quote:

 "Flynn, who has had twenty years experience, not only in the architectural and but in the construction and upkeep, also having the benefit of the advice of our dear old friend, Hugh Wilson, Dr. Harban, Dr. Piper and others, is not going to make any claims of what he has done.

Flynn has three courses open - he can publish this book in book form and sell it the same as the others - he can also run it in a series of twelve ot twenty-four chapters and have it published by Grantland Rice in the American Golfer and be paid for it - or, he can have the Bulletin run it in a series of articles and give it to them without cost which he is willing to do to help the cause along."

Tom,

Is that the entire letter?

[Thomas MacWood]

JES
No but I'm not a skilled typer. It is the entire section of the letter that pertains to Flynn and his qualifications.

[Thomas MacWood]

JES
What courses do you think he was referring to?

[JESII]

Toomey doesn't even introduce him as William Flynn? He just starts out..."Flynn, who has twenty ..."?


I play at a Flynn, and I live in Flynn territory, but my biographical knowledge is pretty thin...

[Gerry B]

Tom:

in wexler's book it says mrf opened in 1926 - i also checked yorktown and it appears to have been completed after our 1927 deadline

[JESII]

His direct quote:

... or, he can have the Bulletin run it in a series of articles and give it to them without cost which he is willing to do to help the cause along."

What "cause"?

[Thomas MacWood]

JES
It starts

"Answering your letter of the 26th in reference to material for the Bulletin, with to advise Mr. Flynn has been working on this for some time and he he now hs material enough for a book."

I would assume the 'cause' was the relatively new Green Section Bulletin.

What 3 courses was Toomey referring to?

[JESII]

As I said, biographical info is not my deal so I have no idea.

Do you think the phrase "Flynn has three courses open" could mean, at the present time he was working on 3 courses?

[Thomas MacWood]

JES
No. I don't think Flynn has three courses open means he is currently working on three courses...especially when you consider the context of the previous paragraph.

[JESII]

Tom,

Please explain...the context of the previous paragraph was that he has 20 years experience in the design, construction and maintenance of golf courses...

It seems logical to me that if Flynn has three courses "open" at present, his business partner just might be in a better position to address requests for his (Flynn's) plans for his writings...

[Thomas MacWood]

Toomey questions George Thomas' qualifications in writing a book on golf architecture. "The publishing house is advertising him as laying out golf courses from the Atlantic to the Pacific coast and I know he has never laid out a golf course in the east." He then goes into Flynn's qualifications.

In most cases when a course is referred to as being open it means it has been completed and opened for play.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom MacWood,

Manufacturers, Rolling Green, and Green Valley (Marble Hall) were all open before 1927.   They were all original designs.

Concord was a revision of 9 and 9 new holes.   So was Pocono Manor and Lancaster.

[JESII]

Tom,

Why do you think Toomey is answering for Flynn about Flynn's writing? Why was Toomey asked about them?

How much more of the letter is there than what you have already typed on here? Any chance you'll type the whole thing by Cut and Paste?

[TEPaul]

"What "cause"?"


Sully:

The "cause" was the USGA Green Section and the Bulletin monthly of the USGA's Green Section. Piper was the first chairman and when he died Russell Oakley took over that position.

The USGA's Green Section was formally brought into being in 1925 when Oakmont's W.C. Fownes was the president of the USGA.

Around 1920 the USGA instituted the Green Committee of the USGA which was an evolution that began with the collected agronomic research of various people in various regions, most notably Hugh and Alan Wilson in Philadelphia (with Flynn and Toomey), Walter Harban in D.C., Wynant Vanderpool in New York, E. Marshall in Ohio, Norman MacBeth in California, Frederick Hood in Boston and a number of others in other regions.

Alan Wilson was the original chairman of this USGA committee and he remained that until the middle of 1925 until he was forced to resign from the committee (and the USGA Executive Committee) to attend to the insurance business upon the sudden death of his brother Hugh who had been his insurance business partner.

The idea behind the USGA Green Committee, and then the USGA Green Section was to produce massive amounts of information to help the golf business in America save money. Around 1920 the idea was to get the US Government to do this through the Dept of Agriculture (from which Piper and Oakley came). They had all apparently petitioned President Woodrow Wilson to do this through Congress and through the US Dept. of Agriculture but apparently the job of this effort fell to the USGA.

One of the ideas was to produce "content" of all kinds for the USGA's Green Section monthly Bulletin. For instance, a letter was conceived of to all American architects asking them to contribute to the Bulletin their ideas on golf course architecture. This was the reason for Flynn's articles in the Green Section Bulletin that Toomey was referring to.

I believe this was also what may've helped inspire Max Behr to begin to write the interesting ideas he had on golf architecture.

An interesting footnote;

In a series of letters around 1920-21 between Piper and Oakley, Wynant Vanderpool and Hugh Wilson the subject of getting C.B. Macdonald to help this USGA effort by representing New York was brought up. Macdonald refused saying he was completely done with everything to do with golf! Obviously and historically that was not to be the case at that point but it surely does indicate how uncooperative he could be and apparently was, at that point.

As I have been saying on here for some years now---it would be most interesting to really investigate why that was the case with Macdonald at that point! I think it is a particularly interesting thing to look into as it seems that some on here are promoting Macdonald as this all encompassing Father of American golf and architecture. Something was going on that needs to be looked into about Macdonald even around 1920. If that's the way people really felt about him then apparently he was not at all willing to cooperate. Why do you suppose that was?     

[TEPaul]

Mr. MacWood:

Wayne and I have had precious little luck locating anything remotely like as much information as we would like to have on Howard Toomey. We've really had a very hard time even explaining why that is the case. When one looks in all the usual places there just never seems to be much about him.

There are some indicators why that may be the case I guess. One of them might have to do with this entire USGA Green Section evolution through the 1920s, and perhaps culminating in that letter or article or whatever it is from him you mentioned on here.

The fact is in the work of researching creeping bent grass which they had all been involved in for a number of years, and which they all felt was the future for golf and golf agronomy, Toomey tried to corner the market on creeping bent either actually or by patenting a machine involved with it. He was involved with them to some extent in this USGA Green Section promotion and the fact is THEY ALL shut him down fairly forcefully in his suggestion to corner the bent market.

Their idea was to give their research on it to golf for free through the USGA Green Section.

[wsmorrison]

Since Tom won't produce the entire letter, I will.  It clearly states that the three courses referred to by Toomey are not golf courses but rather courses of action.  Is he testing us or that bad a researcher?  Pretty stupid in either case.

April 30, 1927

Mr. G. T. Cunningham, Executive Secretary,
USGA Green Section,
P.O. Box 313, Penna. Ave. Station,
Washington, DC

My dear Cunningham:

Answering your letter of the 26th in reference to material for the Bulletin, with (s/b wish) to advise Mr. Flynn has been working on this for sime (sic) time and he now has material enough for a book.

Inasmuch as everybody seems to be writing books and although Hunter's book had a lot of good stuff in it, George C. Thomas who has had three years' experience laying out Golf Courses in the west and who has laid out not more than twelve in southern California has published a book.  The publishing house is advertising him as laying out Golf Courses from the Atlantic to the Pacific Coast and I know he has never laid out a Golf Course in the East.  (Not true--Marion and Whitemarsh Valley)

We hope Flynn can get by with his book without telling any lies, and also not do as Colt, McKenzie and Allison did when they wrote their book--all three got together after it was written and cut out all the meat so they would not give any trade secrets away.  I certainly expect Flynn to leave the meat in his book.

Flynn, who has had twenty years' experience, not only in the architectural end but in the construction and upkeep, also having the benefit of the advice of our old friend, Hugh Wilson, Dr. Harban, Dr. Piper, and others, is not going to make any claims to what he has done.

Flynn has three courses open--he can publish this book in book form and sell it the same as the others--he can also run it in a series of twelve or twenty-four chapters and have it published by Grantland Rice in the American Golfer and be paid for it--or he can have the Bulletin run it in a series of articles and give it to them without cost which he is willing to do to help the cause along.

Kindly advise me at once whether you care to accept his generous offer.

I will send you an article on the planting of fairways vegetatively on hard clay soil at Marble Hall without the use of manure giving you results at the end of two years.

Yours very truly,

(signed)  H.C. Toomey

Copy sent to Messrs.  Oakley,
                                   Read
                                   Harban
                                   Barrow

[Thomas MacWood]

Since Tom won't produce the entire letter, I will.  It clearly states that the three courses referred to by Toomey are not golf courses but rather courses of action.  Is he testing us or that bad a researcher?  Pretty stupid in either case.

April 30, 1927

Mr. G. T. Cunningham, Executive Secretary,
USGA Green Section,
P.O. Box 313, Penna. Ave. Station,
Washington, DC

My dear Cunningham:

Answering your letter of the 26th in reference to material for the Bulletin, with (s/b wish) to advise Mr. Flynn has been working on this for sime (sic) time and he now has material enough for a book.

Inasmuch as everybody seems to be writing books and although Hunter's book had a lot of good stuff in it, George C. Thomas who has had three years' experience laying out Golf Courses in the west and who has laid out not more than twelve in southern California has published a book.  The publishing house is advertising him as laying out Golf Courses from the Atlantic to the Pacific Coast and I know he has never laid out a Golf Course in the East.  (Not true--Marion and Whitemarsh Valley)

We hope Flynn can get by with his book without telling any lies, and also not do as Colt, McKenzie and Allison did when they wrote their book--all three got together after it was written and cut out all the meat so they would not give any trade secrets away.  I certainly expect Flynn to leave the meat in his book.

Flynn, who has had twenty years' experience, not only in the architectural end but in the construction and upkeep, also having the benefit of the advice of our old friend, Hugh Wilson, Dr. Harban, Dr. Piper, and others, is not going to make any claims to what he has done.

Flynn has three courses open--he can publish this book in book form and sell it the same as the others--he can also run it in a series of twelve or twenty-four chapters and have it published by Grantland Rice in the American Golfer and be paid for it--or he can have the Bulletin run it in a series of articles and give it to them without cost which he is willing to do to help the cause along.

Kindly advise me at once whether you care to accept his generous offer.

I will send you an article on the planting of fairways vegetatively on hard clay soil at Marble Hall without the use of manure giving you results at the end of two years.

Yours very truly,

(signed)  H.C. Toomey

Copy sent to Messrs.  Oakley,
                                   Read
                                   Harban
                                   Barrow

Wayne
Three courses of action? An interesting interpretation. I've altered the bolding to show the more reasonable reading IMO.

I'll give you Marion, but are you certain Thomas designed Whitemarsh Valley?

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