[John Kavanaugh]

Gill sent me the following email I thought I would share with this group about his feelings that the excellence of both modern and ancient Chinese architecture will have a lasting affect for decades to come.  Or perhaps centuries when compared to ancient Rome.  Do you believe, like Gillette, that the exquisite taste shown in all things architectural by the Chinese for thousands of years now has to, and will, translate to golf architecture.  We believe it is an exciting future.  The email that motivated this thread:

Date:  Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:38:31 -0500
From:  "Gillette Silver" <raterking@gmail.com> Add to Address Book    Block Sender Allow Sender
To:  "spooon@usa.net" <spooon@usa.net>
Subject:  I think I'm turning Chinese  Allow Subject
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Buddy,

I really think so. How do you think the architecture, both modern and
ancient, presented by China in the 2008 Olympics will influence
architecuture? Tiananmen Square, the Birds Nest, the Great Wall and
the greatest modern building of my lifetime, the Water Cube, presents
the world with a template that has not been matched since the
greatness of ancient Rome. How will this translate to golf
architcture in China with the many virgin canvases presented to the
finest architects of our day. I can't imagine failure with the
backdrop of taste and elegance in structural architecture I see today.
Is this all real, is the Water Cube minimalistic technoscope, or am I
turning Chinese, cause I really think so.

In golf as in life,

Gillette Silver

[John Kavanaugh]

Below is a link to an article on what makes the Water Cube so facinating. If the following doesn't describe technoscope minimalisim that must be translated to the natural slate of golf, I don't know what can: "The structure of the Water Cube is based on the most effective sub-division of three-dimensional space - the fundamental arrangement of organic cells and the natural formation of soap bubbles." 

http://www.arup.com/australasia/feature.cfm?pageid=3460

What natural formation of cells could be used to improve or innovate the design of golf course architecture.  The natural formation of soap bubbles worked perfectly for the design of a natatorium.  So what works for golf?

[John Kavanaugh]

Whew...Gillette just tore me a new one.  What do you think?  Can golf find a model in nature?

Date:  Fri, 22 Aug 2008 22:41:51 -0500
From:  "Gillette Silver" <raterking@gmail.com> Add to Address Book    Block Sender Allow Sender
To:  "spooon@usa.net" <spooon@usa.net>
Subject:  Natural structures relating to golf.  Allow Subject
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Buddy,

What have you been smoking asking the guys of GCA to find a model in
nature that relates to golf like bubbles relate to water. Bubbles are
simply water structures while golf is a pursuit of the soul. How many
times do I have to remind you of the Huxley quote to Ball "Of moral
purpose I see not a trace in nature. That is an article of exclusively
human manufacture." Golf, my friend, is far from nature and hardly
natural in any respect.

In golf as in life,

Gillette Silver

[Jed Peters]

You are a (edited for self-censorship) tool.

You think you're witty, and poignant, and all that jazz, but the reality of it is you're just a (edited for self-censorship) .

Take your pap elsewhere.

Thanks,

Jed

[cary lichtenstein]

John,

Perhaps a trip to your local MRI facility might be inorder.

Have them do a brain scan to see if you have a tumor or some affliction caused by inhaling all that asphalt over the years.

Good luck.

Cary

[John Kavanaugh]

Jed,

I don't fault Gill for being harsh with me sometimes because I am not educated in the classics or don't get some of his references.  Do you have a natural model for golf that flows so perfectly as the soap bubbles model translated into a perfect structure for a natatorium.  Golf architecture has never reached the genius of structural when it comes to artistic symbolism.  Can you help by giving examples or do you just want to shoot the messenger?

Why can't this site put personal differences aside and attempt to advance the art though ideas instead of insults?  I can not ask you to passionately embrace Gill but I hope you can find it in your heart to embrace his passion.

[Jed Peters]

Why can't this site put personal differences aside and attempt to advance the art though ideas instead of insults?

Good call.

You start first.

Your thinly veiled insults though satire don't work, even though you (in your infantile and pedantic mind) think there's some effect.

Get a new gig. This one ain't playin' like you're hoping for.

[John Kavanaugh]

Jed,

If you do not believe that the architecture of these 2008 Olympics will be relevant to the future of all architecture for years to come that is fine and your opinion.  If you have a problem with Gill please take it up with him off line at raterking@gmail.com so this excellent, relevant and topical important thread can continue in the spirit it was started.

Have you been moved at all by the images presented out of Beijing or do you see it as nothing but carefully manipulated hype that will be forgotten in the coming months.  I know that both Gill and I think the architecture of these Olympics will stand the test of time.

[Rich Goodale]

John/Gill

There is no doubt in my mind that these Olympics are a stunning achievement for the Chinese, in terms of both the physical and organisational architecture.  I also continue to beleive that the opening ceremony constituted the passing of the torch not only of the Olympic movement but also of the leadership of human civilisation.  We Europeans have had our innings over the past 3-400 years and now it is time for the Asians to show the way to the future.

That being said, even though China is also the future of golf, I very much doubt if it will significantly affect golf course architecture in our lifetime, but it eventually will, and when it does the game will be as unrecognisable to those old enough to remember today's golf as today's golf would have been to Old Tom Morris.

Rich

[Tom Yost]

Still waiting for the masturbation joke.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Rich,
I can see you now, hunched over an assembly line, knocking together cell phones for $.50 an hour.
 

[RJ_Daley]

Nice call Jimbo.  Wasn't that "cube" conceived and designed by Irish engineers and designers, and built by Chinese contractors with coolee labor?  Rich, your refrain sounds like that Howard Hughes OC mantra in the movie, "its the way of the future, the way of the fuuutcher, wayothefiuchur...."

Isn't China really the place where architects, or even GCAs go to design/build stuff that wouldn't be allowed in countries with stricter codes?  I'll give you that their rising skylines are some of the most futuristic and brilliant looking designs in all of the world.  I sure hope some to those christmas tree ornament looking buildings are not built only because they could be in China as opposed to more regulated States. 

Are some of the courses being built similar in that not much red tape environmental reg goes on?  If the State wants the growth, will they look the other way on the red tape?

I don't know the answer...  but I have a guess.

What does Gilley say, John?

[cary lichtenstein]

So this thread got me thinking about the Lone Ranger, his mightly horse Silver and his faithful companion Tonto...

The Lone Ranger wakes up Tonto and says:

"Tonto, what do you see when you look up"

Tonto says, "Kee mo sobie, I see dozens of stars"

The Lone Ranger says,  "Tonto, do you see anything wrong?"

Tonto says "No, should I?"

The Lone Range says "Someone stole our f*&king tent"

[Joey Smith]

John - This may have been addressed; but did Gill, in his travels, ever run across a fellow named Shivas Irons?

[John_Conley]

Still waiting for the masturbation joke.

Tom, first thng I thought too.  I almost shared the lyics for everyone.  What the hey!  Here goes:

No sex no drugs no wine no women
No sin no fun no you no wonder it's dark
Everyone around me is a to-tal stranger
Everyone avoids me like a cyclone ranger
Evvvv-reeee-onnnee

That's why I'm turning Japanese
I think I'm turning Japanese
I really think so
Think so
Think so

[Rich Goodale]

"One of my favourite vignettes came a few days ago from the Times which related the story of an ex-peasant who had spent the last 3-4 years doing backbreaking construction labour on the Bird's Nest, 1000 miles from his family.  Even though he was paid well, he didn't do this because of pride or by being dragooned into it by the CPC, but because in his words (in effect):
 
"I wanted to make enough money to send my children to University so that when the next Olympics come they will be designing the buildings rather than constructing them."
 
The American dream is alive and well.  In China."

ForkaB

[Mark Bourgeois]

Ni hao Rhic

The Times is turning into Grauniad, apparently. Shouldn't your "American Dream" quote read "child" not "children"?

Maybe it was the censor's fault!

[TEPaul]

JohnK:

I don't get it. Although I know I've definitely never been able to figure you out or where you're really coming from, here you throw up some interesting food for thought for the future and the future of golf architecture and you get completely pummelled for it.

I wonder if some forward looking Scottish linksman of the 19th century mused about what the Chicago Fair of 1893 might mean to the future of golf architecture in America he was pummelled by his mates for surreptiously promoting jokes about masturbation or whatever?


caryL:

Hilarious post!



Peter Pallotta:

You may need to look into this subject as there may be a Chinese Max Behr aborning over there somewhere.

[Jim_Kennedy]

"I wanted to make enough money to send my children to University so that when the next Olympics come they will be designing the buildings rather than constructing them." -Former Chinese Peasant (as reported by Mr. Goodale)

Probably sending them to MIT

[John Kavanaugh]

JohnK:

I don't get it. Although I know I've definitely never been able to figure you out or where you're really coming from, here you throw up some interesting food for thought for the future and the future of golf architecture and you get completely pummelled for it.

I wonder if some forward looking Scottish linksman of the 19th century mused about what the Chicago Fair of 1893 might mean to the future of golf architecture in America he was pummelled by his mates for surreptiously promoting jokes about masturbation or whatever?

TEPaul,

What I find interesting in the relationship between structural and golf architecture is the period of golf that proceeded the Guggenheim museum when it opened in 1959.  If I were to be asked which buildings in my lifetime, counting gestation of course, were the most important of their time the Guggenheim would have possibly made the top of the list.  Today if I am I were to be asked to name the greatest buildings built in the modern age I would have to include both the Birds Nest and Water Cube. 

The questions would be:  Did golf architecture of the 1960's and beyond reflect the modernism found in the architecture of the Guggenheim?  and two:  Will the architecture of today and beyond reflect the technoaturalization of the BN and WC?  I hope and think it will.

[RJ_Daley]

What about this could possibly suggest anything related to the design of a golf course, and further signifies any change to a "moderism" of GCA method, technique, or aesthetics since this Guggie was built?


What does Gillie say will become a design concept change in the aftermath of the WC or BN?

Here's Little Gill at the handpuppet olympics, getting ready to race in the 100second sprintandspew.


I must say that as far as building architecture, the BN or WC may move the ball forward.  Innovation is always a good thing to embrace.

[John Kavanaugh]

What about this could possibly suggest anything related to the design of a golf course, and further signifies any change to a "moderism" of GCA method, technique, or aesthetics since this Guggie was built?

That building screams Robert Trent Jones greensite with the long flowing symmetrical lines.

[RJ_Daley]

The only GCA I can possibly think of that uses FLW's methods of design concepts would be Des Muirhead.  Where Des used symbolic shapes as did FLW, like the praying hands at the Unitarian Church in Madison




or Des's Muirhead's symbolism using suggestive shapes in unconventional design.



In looking some of this up on the net, I bumped into this Colin Montgomerie/Desmond Muirhead collaboration in Dubai.  You might find some interesting stuff on this site:
http://www.themontgomerie.com/aboutus/thedesigners/desmondmuirheadcon.jsp

[John Kavanaugh]

Dick,

You do golf architects a great injustice if you remove any hint of social conscience from their work.  I don't think anyone would argue that structural architecture is a reflection of the society during which it is created and agree that few believe golf architecture is so astute.  Perhaps that is why we have people who call themselves architects and those who use adjectives to describe their profession.

Let me try to make this as simple as I can.  FLW did not do anything that could be called random...kind of like RTJ and his green contours.  The Birds Nest and Water Cube use structures that are in theory perfectly random kind of like the greens at Pacific Dunes.  Each form follows an intended function except one appears to be based in math and the other nature.

[Bill Gayne]

Is this arts and craft on a larger scale?

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