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Thomas MacWood

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #100 on: October 20, 2008, 10:38:01 AM »

Tom MacWood is wrong.  His research methods are narrowly defined and subject too high an error rate.  Rather than widening his scope and conducting interviews and due dilligence outside the confines of his study and Ancestry.com, he chose to disparage William Flynn's daughter's account of her family history and ability to provide accurate information.  Well, the Mayflower Society is one group that doesn't take fact checking lightly and does a much more thorough job of it with far greater expertise than Tom MacWood.  Their findings coincide not with MacWood, but with Flynn's daughter and she was accepted into their membership. 


No one had made a post on this thread for a month when Wayne made his post above...it seems to me he was looking for trouble. I responded and now he is upset. If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen or in this case don't make highly inflamatory posts.


TEPaul

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #101 on: October 20, 2008, 10:40:32 AM »
"Your disdain for Ross and McGovern is well known, perhaps not to the degree as with Macdonald (to my knowledge you have not urinated on Ross or McGovern's grave), but obvious none the less. I suspect, consciously or subconsciously, you put words in her mouth."


Mr. MacWood:

That statement is just complete and outright bullshit on your part and neither one of us are ever going to let it stand on here. If you keep putting garbage like that on this website we will continue to come after you as basically a liar. Now you're getting into the unthinkable of trying to tell people on here what WE think without even bothering to consider what WE say about what we think of some of these architects.

Connie Lagerman was definitely not misled in any way whatsoever. We asked her a very simple and straight-forward question with no names at all involved and from that she's the one who did the talking----not us. She volunteered the name McGovern with no prompting at all from us. We even asked her if she had any idea why her father didn't like McGovern and she said she had no idea and she only remembers he was one architect her father did not like at all. It's a competitive business, I guess, both today and back then but perhaps you haven't even gotten to the point of figuring that out yet!   ::)

It's pathetic to see you try to make a career and name for yourself by constantly trying to find trivial little mistakes in the histories of clubs and architects, and not the least reason being you are so wrong so often about what you say. But I guess anyone who goes about research in the extremely limited way you do would be prone to such a thing.


What Wayne said to you on post #82 is right on the money. There's no point at all in you trying to personalize any of this----eg when you put a bunch of misinformation on here you're just going to hear about it. That's what this website is all about. If you can't take the heat then it's you who needs to get out of the kitchen!
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 10:52:30 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #102 on: October 20, 2008, 10:45:17 AM »
TE
It wouldn't be the first time you and Wayne have infuenced an interviewee. If you will recall your interview of the poor fellow at Merchantville.

wsmorrison

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #103 on: October 20, 2008, 10:51:29 AM »
MacWood,

You basically called Mrs. Lagerman ignorant of her own family history.  It is you that is ignorant of her family history (your limited methods and your limited intelligence are to blame) and further you are a cad in besmirching her and Tom Paul and I without knowing any FACTS.

I was incensed that you discredited her in the manner you did and I did go out of my way to correct you on here.  It must be done each time you lie, twist and make up stories.  That is becoming an all too regular habit of yours as you are shown to be WRONG so many times.  You don't realize it or believe it, but that is your problem.  There is a growing number of others that see you for what you are, an error-prone researcher who is only an expert at making up stories to fit his preconceived notions of how things should be.

I wasn't looking for trouble.  I was looking to correct your errors.  You responded in an immature fashion again bringing up the FALSE story about me and grave sites.   You were asked to stop on many occasions yet you continue to do so.  It is a poor diversion and a sorry sort of behavior.  I can take a discussion of FACTS, you turn it into slinging false stories and misrepresentations.  That is highly inflammatory.  Proving you wrong is not.

wsmorrison

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #104 on: October 20, 2008, 10:53:59 AM »
It wouldn't be the first time you and Wayne have infuenced an interviewee. If you will recall your interview of the poor fellow at Merchantville.

Wrong again.  We learned the truth about you, there was no need to influence anyone.  You have no idea what I talked about and what I heard.  It simply doesn't correspond to your altered perception of reality.

TEPaul

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #105 on: October 20, 2008, 11:01:40 AM »
"TE
It wouldn't be the first time you and Wayne have infuenced an interviewee. If you will recall your interview of the poor fellow at Merchantville."


My God man, you're really warped. I didn't interview that township manager from Merchantville at all----YOU DID---and you did it (according to him) without even bothering to tell him you might write about Crump's death. Then you even bragged to me later on the phone that how you got that information out of him (without telling him the reason you were calling) proves you're such a great researcher. I mean, seriously, that kind of illogic and thinking and total lack of ethics on your part is so bizarre and fucked up as to be mind-boggling!  ::)

I didn't interview him at all. All I did was ask him if you told him why you were calling him----eg that you might write about what he told you. To that he simply said if you came to Merchantville he would consider suing you.

Don't try to lay your incredibly shoddy and unethical research methods on us pal. Don't forget, the Merchantville township manager is still there to explain how it all went down.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 11:04:08 AM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #106 on: October 20, 2008, 11:31:39 AM »
MacWood,

You basically called Mrs. Lagerman ignorant of her own family history.  It is you that is ignorant of her family history (your limited methods and your limited intelligence are to blame) and further you are a cad in besmirching her and Tom Paul and I without knowing any FACTS.

I was incensed that you discredited her in the manner you did and I did go out of my way to correct you on here.  It must be done each time you lie, twist and make up stories.  That is becoming an all too regular habit of yours as you are shown to be WRONG so many times.  You don't realize it or believe it, but that is your problem.  There is a growing number of others that see you for what you are, an error-prone researcher who is only an expert at making up stories to fit his preconceived notions of how things should be.

I wasn't looking for trouble.  I was looking to correct your errors.  You responded in an immature fashion again bringing up the FALSE story about me and grave sites.   You were asked to stop on many occasions yet you continue to do so.  It is a poor diversion and a sorry sort of behavior.  I can take a discussion of FACTS, you turn it into slinging false stories and misrepresentations.  That is highly inflammatory.  Proving you wrong is not.

Wayne
With all due respect many of her facts were wrong, but I have repeatedly said IMO it is unreasonable to expect her to have precise dates and facts surrounding events that happened 80+ years ago, especially when many of those events occured before she was even born. If there is any fault its not with her but with you for not trying to confirm her information before putting it into your article/book.

As far as you urinating on Macdonald's grave, obviously I wasn't there when it supposedly happened, the only reason any of us know about the incedent is because you and TE brought it up on GCA. You certainly have not hidden the fact you're not a fan of Macdonald, which I think as a result has colored your analysis of the Merion story.  

Thomas MacWood

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #107 on: October 20, 2008, 11:36:18 AM »
Wayne & TE
Instead of privately threatening Ran and I with law suits, my suggesting is that the three of us take an extended break from the discusion group. There is no reason this site should be subjected to the constant bickering and back biting. I would agree to leave for extended period if you do...I'm thinking the end of the year is a reasonable period.

wsmorrison

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #108 on: October 20, 2008, 11:42:47 AM »
Whatever, Tom.  I did not bring it up on this site.  I laughed it off and hoped it would go away.  It would except that you keep bringing it up despite my pleadings to stop.  You show your true character by ignoring the facts and constantly revisiting it.  No excuses.  You are a jerk.

wsmorrison

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #109 on: October 20, 2008, 11:46:34 AM »
No deals, Tom.  You do not tell the truth.  :P
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 03:00:22 PM by Wayne Morrison »

TEPaul

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #110 on: October 20, 2008, 11:50:01 AM »
Mr. MacWood:

I'll guarantee you Connie Lagerman knows a whole hell of a lot more about her father and her family than you ever will from your sole perch in Ivory Tower, Ohio and your sole reliance on the INTERNET. ;)

Wayne (nor I) disrespect Macdonald at all----Wayne just doesn't admire the lines of his architectural style as much as he does some other architects including those who continued to work after Macdonald's active career was done.

And Wayne did not urinate on Macdonald's grave. If you don't believe us why don't you just ask the others who were there if you even know who they were? That was just a joke but obviously it's convenient for you to cast it the way you have to continue to make some incorrect and unsupportable point despite being told the truth about a dozen times.

As for the "Merion Story" that one pretty much tells itself and it always has even if you can't understand it coming at it with two newspaper articles you think you discovered. The irony and the hilariousness of all this is Merion as well as us have had those articles on Macdonald/Whigam's participation with MCC in 1910 and 1911 (his advising and making suggestions) long before you came upon this subject and those articles were always very much part of the tapestry of Merion's history.

This was just another example of your constant inclination to ASSUME when you discover something that noone else has ever been aware of it.  ??? This is the reason these kinds of threads begin with you and why you can never really seem to understand the realities of the histories of these clubs and architects. And this will always be the case with you as long as you continue to refuse to go to these clubs and courses and get involved with them. We've been trying to explain this to you for years now---maybe one of these days you'll figure out the validity of what we're telling you----but on the other hand, knowing you, perhaps you never will figure this out!

« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 11:53:50 AM by TEPaul »

TEPaul

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #111 on: October 20, 2008, 12:01:19 PM »
"I would agree to leave for extended period if you do...I'm thinking the end of the year is a reasonable period."


Mr. MacWood:

Absolutely not. But if you want to leave please don't allow me or Wayne to stand in your way to the door!  ;) It looks like your trainee, the "The Missing Faces of Merion" essayist has left again and thankfully it doesn't look like he felt constrained to make some deal that we all leave too! If you do leave perhaps you can spend the time saved to get around to some of these clubs and courses so you can better familiarize yourself with them and the facts and realities of their histories. 
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 12:03:42 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #112 on: October 20, 2008, 12:19:17 PM »
I tried.

If I was Ran I wouldn't wait for us to volunteer; I would kick at least the two of us (Wayne & I) off the site today.When you have Wayne threatening both Ran and myself with law suits IMO extraordinary actions are needed.

TEPaul

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #113 on: October 20, 2008, 12:34:45 PM »
Mr. MacWood:

I can only speak for myself and not Wayne but I see no reason at all to discuss what you said in that last post. It's a waste of time with the subject of this thread---Fred Pickering. If you want to get into that kind of grandstanding you should just do it on your own.

All any of us need to do on here with these threads is concentrate on the accuracy of historic events and such. That's what we do on here, and that is the basis from which our opinions are derived. That's what we're expected to do by Ran and Ben and such. Obviously there will always be disagreements on what is accurate and what isn't.

That's what GOLFCLUBATLAS.com is all about. If you don't like that then you should take a break.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #114 on: October 20, 2008, 12:41:29 PM »
Mr. MacWood:

I can only speak for myself and not Wayne but I see no reason at all to discuss what you said in that last post. It's a waste of time with the subject of this thread---Fred Pickering. If you want to get into that kind of grandstanding you should just do it on your own.

All any of us need to do on here with these threads is concentrate on the accuracy of historic events and such. That's what we do on here, and that is the basis from which our opinions are derived. That's what we're expected to do by Ran and Ben and such. Obviously there will always be disagreements on what is accurate and what isn't.

That's what GOLFCLUBATLAS.com is all about. If you don't like that then you should take a break.

I agree. Why then has Wayne spent the last 24 hours attacking me on this thread and why has Wayne threatened to sue both Ran and myself today?

TEPaul

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #115 on: October 20, 2008, 12:49:45 PM »
Mr. MacWood:

I just told you that in my opinion that is not a subject worth discussing on here---eg it is a waste of everyone's time and energy. Is it possible for you to pay any attention to anything anyone says on this website or would you prefer to simply carry on some monologue with yourself about how you are always being attacked by someone for some reason? And that includes your constant questions in the same vein.

This is my final response on your questions and on your suggestion that if you leave others should agree to as well. If you want to leave then just leave.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 12:53:44 PM by TEPaul »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #116 on: October 20, 2008, 12:59:20 PM »
TE
It is time to discuss it. This is not the first time Ran has been threatened. Wayne obviously needs a vacation but beyond that as far as I am concerned there is no place on this site for those kinds of threats. I believe it should made clear that if you are going to make any threats you are off the site. This site and Ran doesn't need this kind of BS, and Ran should make an example and kick Wayne (and me) off the site today. Case closed.

TEPaul

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #117 on: October 20, 2008, 01:14:16 PM »
"TE
It is time to discuss it."


Mr. MacWood:

Well, then why don't you discuss it with Ran Morrissett? I sure don't want to discuss it though on one of these threads and I doubt Wayne does either.

Or alternatively, you may want to ask yourself why a number of us in Philadelphia have never had these kinds of problems with anyone on this website other than you and your research fellow-traveler from California.  ;)

wsmorrison

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #118 on: October 20, 2008, 01:14:50 PM »
Tom MacWood is not telling the truth  :P
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 02:59:47 PM by Wayne Morrison »

Thomas MacWood

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #119 on: October 20, 2008, 01:27:42 PM »
Wayne
I'm not going to argue with you. We both got your message loud and clear. This is not the first time Ran has been threatened, and there is no place for it on this site. Anyone who engages in those types of threats should be kicked off the site. Period.

TEPaul

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #120 on: October 20, 2008, 01:41:48 PM »
Wayne:

My suggestion to you would be to just stop responding altogether on here to Tom MacWood on this particular subject of leaving this website or being kicked off of it. It's just another example of him grandstanding again. This doesn't need to be on any of these threads or this DG. If he has a problem in this vein he should take it to Ran Morrissett privately.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #121 on: October 20, 2008, 01:50:47 PM »
TE
You may not have a problem with participants threatening Ran but I do. Everyone on this site should take notice, that is unacceptable behavior. IMO this issue is much bigger than some minor disagreement between you and I or Wayne and I. Its time this site conduct some self-policing and let everyone know this threatening behavior will not be tollerated.

TEPaul

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #122 on: October 20, 2008, 02:13:08 PM »
"TE
You may not have a problem with participants threatening Ran but I do."


Mr. MacWood:

I have absolutely no knowledge about that and for really obvious reasons I'm most certainly not going to take your word on it. Now, is it possible for you to deal with this privately with Ran Morrissett or are you going to continue to drag this kind of thing out all across these threads? I think the time is going to need to come eventually, Mr. MacWood, for you to learn to take some responsiblility for the really poor pass things have gotten to with you on this website on a few subjects that you seem to insist on perpetuating. If you don't know yet what they are one of them surely is this lie you keep floating about Wayne pissing on Macdonald's grave. How many times do you need to hear that never remotely happened before you stop bringing it up? If you don't like that kind of humor I guess I can understand that but at least learn to take it for what it is. It is not a fact and you just keep presenting it on here as if it were. Why is that?  ::)

Learn to take some responsibility for yourself for starters, Tom MacWood, and things just may begin to calm down on this website with these things that seem to overly concern you now.

Thomas MacWood

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #123 on: October 20, 2008, 02:13:38 PM »
I just got another threat from Wayne, this time apparently with TE as a party to it.

Wayne
If you are going to threaten me at least have the courage to do on the site.

wsmorrison

Re: Fred Pickering - the "King of All Golf Course Constructors"
« Reply #124 on: October 20, 2008, 02:53:15 PM »
 Completely untrue :P
« Last Edit: October 20, 2008, 02:59:01 PM by Wayne Morrison »

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