Long Putters

[Jim Sherma]

Jamie - I basically already have wrist against the chest and never really felt that I anchored the club against my body in any event. I try to rock more than pendulum the putter against a fixed point. If they regulate the length of the club then all bets are off.

DSchmidt - I agree that the whole thing is crazy. No course has ever been modified because of how someone holds the putter. Until they address the balls and the drivers the USGA has lost most of its credibility in my opinion. (The cheater line is neither here nor there in my opinion as long as using it doesn't slow up play, as a kid I used to line up the lettering on the ball or the dinple seam to the same effect. What type of regulation would you reccomend for "fixing the cheater line" and how can it be enforced as long as there are any straight lines on a golf ball that could be used as such?)

OK, without turning this into another 40 page thread on the subject, I'll answer:

I have come to the conclusion that the best way to eliminate the cheater line is in the Marking and Replacing rule, and simply state that "when replacing the ball after it has been marked, the ball shall be replaced quickly, and without regard to the positioning of any markings or dimples on the ball." 

If that were the rule, flagging violations would be about the same as flagging "ball bumpers", only it would actually be easier because the ball bumpers do it real quick when people aren't looking, but if somebody was trying to put a cheater line down in violation of this rule, they'd have to take some time, and everybody would know exactly what they're doing.  Plus, the evidence would be right there on the ground!   

David - I didn't mean to rehash this, I had just not read a distinct clarification as to enforcment plans. Thanks for the reasonable response. I've gone back and forth between using and not using it. It still boils down to pace of play and whether or not someone is slowing down play by using it. I liked the term "ball bumpers", I had not heard it before but know exactly who you're referring to.

[Ken Moum]

Ken,

When you consider all of the non-traditional grips currently in use, why wasn't the paddle Grip-rite reinstated ?

The USGA has not wavered on the rules in appendix II banning waists in grips:

The grip may be tapered but must not have any bulge or waist. Its cross-sectional dimensions measured in any direction must not exceed 1.75 inches (44.45 mm).



There is no grip currently allowed that has a waist, which is what got the GripRite banned in the first place.

The astounding thing to me is that the USGA gave the players a 5-year grace period to stop using those grips, yet when the Tour arrived in Arizona the winter the ban was enforced, players like Crenshaw threw a fit about losing "his" grip.

Hell, I was mutt amateur shooting 80s in South Dakota at the time, and I knew the rule was going to change--perhaps because I was using the grip that got the ban enacted in the first place.

K

[Ken Moum]

So your choices will be regular putter or long putter, peanut butter or chocolate, but no Reese's Peanut Butter cup for you...

Why not Reese's though?

Long putters are great from short distances, but tough to judge from longer distances.

Regular putters are better for touch, but some get yippy from short distances.

Why hasn't someone like Phil tried carrying two putters, a long putter for short putts and a regular putter for lag putts? You already take half your shots on the green, give or take.

I'm not surprised it's uncommon, but I'm surprised that I've literally never seen anyone try this.

The guy who won the 2011 Kansas Senior Amateur carried a broomstick and a short putter, and he putted beautifully.  I watched the final foursome, which included two long putters and three short putters--two of which had porno-film-sized grips on them.

FWIW, when it comes to embarassing equipment choices, the Ron Jeremy commemorative putter grips bother me a whole lot more than belly putters.

K

[David_Tepper]

Since even a belly putter could not cure my yips, I now use a Bullseye. I play right-handed and putt everything up to about 4' or 5' right-handed. I putt almost everything inside of 4' or 5' left-handed. It is not the perfect solution, but I can manage. As the saying goes, "necessity is a mother."

[Kalen Braley]

Since even a belly putter could not cure my yips, I now use a Bullseye. I play right-handed and putt everything up to about 4' or 5' right-handed. I putt almost everything inside of 4' or 5' left-handed. It is not the perfect solution, but I can manage. As the saying goes, "necessity is a mother."

I thought the phrase was "necessity is the mother of invention". 

So how soon will the ban go into place?  If they get the rule in by this fall, will the current broomstick abusers get a one year grace period to figure it out before its completely outlawed in 2014?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas & Jamie,

The anchoring of parts of the arm to the torso will probably be banned as well.

One of the best long putters I know uses this technique and suggested it to me.

I think the USGA will put considerable thought into the issue.
If they ban the long putter and/or anchoring, I don't think they'll be as short sighted as you think.

[Jim Sherma]

Shivas & Jamie,

The anchoring of parts of the arm to the torso will probably be banned as well.

One of the best long putters I know uses this technique and suggested it to me.

I think the USGA will put considerable thought into the issue.
If they ban the long putter and/or anchoring, I don't think they'll be as short sighted as you think.

Patrick

I agree with your assessment. My guess is that they will make some tortured definition of a putter based on loft and shaft length, coupled with something about achoring to any part of the torso just oin case. I'm thinking I'll need to get the shorty out and hope the evil has left it in the time it's been in the closet.

[Doug Siebert]

I only carry one wood, a 3-wood and I use my L, S and P Wedges, so it has to be one putter

Just play like Hogan, and take say your 6 iron out of play because "there are no 6 iron shots on this course"

Seriously though, the math indicates you carry 2-9 irons.  Given the number of shots one uses a putter for, the number of shots one uses a wedge for, and the number of shots one uses a driver for, it seems silly we worry so much about having irons with such small gaps between them.  If one for instance bent their 3 iron one degree weaker, their 4 iron two degrees weaker, and their 6 iron one degree stronger, they could dump their five iron and add only 3-4 yards between their longer irons.  Basically you might be at most 2 yards more off your "ideal" distance for any given shot for mid/long iron shots.  Perhaps not worth it to you, if you only have trouble with  your long putter from off the green, but for people who use the long putter only for short putts and find a regular putter is better outside 10-12 feet, carrying two putters would seem to be a no-brainer with little reason to claim the 14 club limit as the problem.

[Jason Thurman]

Shivas & Jamie,

The anchoring of parts of the arm to the torso will probably be banned as well.

One of the best long putters I know uses this technique and suggested it to me.

I think the USGA will put considerable thought into the issue.
If they ban the long putter and/or anchoring, I don't think they'll be as short sighted as you think.

How can they ban anchoring parts of the arm to the torso? Most Tour players work to keep their upper arm "connected" to the chest throughout the swing, which is effectively "anchoring." Most good putters essentially "anchor" their upper arm or elbow to their torso when putting to enable a good, shoulder-rocking stroke. Anchoring of the arms to the body is a fundamental of golf not unique to putting.

[Dan Herrmann]

Just watching TGC.  Reporter quotes Furyk as saying something like, "Just because the USGA says they're banned doesn't mean the PGA TOUR will follow suit."

My comment has been redacted...

[Patrick_Mucci]

I only carry one wood, a 3-wood and I use my L, S and P Wedges, so it has to be one putter

Just play like Hogan, and take say your 6 iron out of play because "there are no 6 iron shots on this course"

Doug,

I was a little more course "specific" in deciding what club to remove.
I would remove a club depending upon my analysis of prior play and intended play.
It's certainly not an infallible system but I thought it gave me the best chance to optimize scoring.

It's still cumbersome to bring two putters to the green.

Seriously though, the math indicates you carry 2-9 irons.  Given the number of shots one uses a putter for, the number of shots one uses a wedge for, and the number of shots one uses a driver for, it seems silly we worry so much about having irons with such small gaps between them.  If one for instance bent their 3 iron one degree weaker, their 4 iron two degrees weaker, and their 6 iron one degree stronger, they could dump their five iron and add only 3-4 yards between their longer irons.  Basically you might be at most 2 yards more off your "ideal" distance for any given shot for mid/long iron shots.  Perhaps not worth it to you, if you only have trouble with  your long putter from off the green, but for people who use the long putter only for short putts and find a regular putter is better outside 10-12 feet, carrying two putters would seem to be a no-brainer with little reason to claim the 14 club limit as the problem.

I don't disagree, but there's an element in me that wants to make a commitment to learn to use the putter effectively from off the green.

Dan,

If the USGA rules, I don't think they'll do so in a vacuum.
I think they'm consult and caucus with the other ruling bodies.

[William_G]

Just watching TGC.  Reporter quotes Jim "I hate golf, but its my job" Furyk as saying something like, "Just because the USGA says they're banned doesn't mean the PGA TOUR will follow suit."

My comment has been redacted...

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas & Jamie,

The anchoring of parts of the arm to the torso will probably be banned as well.

One of the best long putters I know uses this technique and suggested it to me.

I think the USGA will put considerable thought into the issue.
If they ban the long putter and/or anchoring, I don't think they'll be as short sighted as you think.

How can they ban anchoring parts of the arm to the torso?

Very easily.

Most Tour players work to keep their upper arm "connected" to the chest throughout the swing, which is effectively "anchoring."

"Connected" and "Anchored" are entirely different.
In order to maximize "arc", separation of the arm from the body seems like a basic

 Most good putters essentially "anchor" their upper arm or elbow to their torso when putting to enable a good, shoulder-rocking stroke.

So their upper arm and/or elbow never moves ? ? ?

Anchoring of the arms to the body is a fundamental of golf not unique to putting.

I'm not familiar with the swing you describe.

Anchoring is intended to increase stability.

I don't see that happening on full swings, as you describe.

[Jason Thurman]

Pat, I've made many pitch and 3/4 swings where it feels like my arms stay completely connected to my torso throughout. I frequently go to the range and hit balls with gloves under my arm, such that the glove doesn't move even on a full swing. Obviously, my arms are "anchored" to my chest throughout the swing. I don't disagree with you that they move some. I just dont think you can put a rule into play in which lateral movement of between a half-inch and two inches is fine but lateral movement of less than half an inch isn't. It's just too hard to legislate.

I'm very confident in my ability to anchor my upper arm to my chest when chipping.

I also lock my elbows against my ribcage firmly when putting with a conventional putter. I'm confident they don't move any more than Adam Scott's anchored thumb does.

If keeping the arms against the chest in the short game is ruled illegal, we'll start seeing swings far more unconventional than the current belly putter.

The definition of anchoring by the ruling bodies will extend no further than the forearm. I'm perfectly happy to wager with you on that one if you really disagree.

[JMEvensky]

If carrying 2 putters,do you have to designate which one is for leather?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Shivas,

I tried the two putter system

Right now I'm committed to the long putter

Time will tell

[David_Tepper]

Bring on the lawyers!

http://www.golfworldmonday.com/golfworldmonday/20120730?sub_id=Zu8yJ1Id9hj8&folio=8#pg8

[David_Tepper]

"Anchoring Away," an update from the Canadian Open:

http://scoregolf.com/blog/rick-young/2012/july/anchoring-away

[JMEvensky]

Bring on the lawyers!

http://www.golfworldmonday.com/golfworldmonday/20120730?sub_id=Zu8yJ1Id9hj8&folio=8#pg8

Wouldn't the PGAT members be suing themselves?

[Mark Molyneux]

Since even a belly putter could not cure my yips, I now use a Bullseye. I play right-handed and putt everything up to about 4' or 5' right-handed. I putt almost everything inside of 4' or 5' left-handed. It is not the perfect solution, but I can manage. As the saying goes, "necessity is a mother."

I know it's an old topic. To that I say, "Geez! I've missed you folks!!" The anchoring rules will evolve. I did the same thing that David advised. I went left handed for all putts for two seasons and during the third season, I kept at it left handed from inside 3 or 4 feet with a Plop putter because like some old Bullseye putters, I could hit the ball off either side of the head. I finally settled into Sam Snead's side-saddle style of putting but mostly within 3 feet. Twenty years later, it still works. I'm convinced that most everything's been tried before. I watch Speith focus on the target and not the ball, knowing that I read about Helen Seigel Wilson doing just that 50 years ago.

[Jim Sherma]

Still a really stupid decision by the USGA. Users of the long putter are predominantly older players trying to squeeze out a few more years of being competitive. I am sure they index very high in terms of engagement and money spent. Certainly not the customers you want to alienate. The PGA tried to speak to this but I don't think many appreciated what they were getting at.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I'm currently using two putters and have taken my 2-iron and 3-iron out of the bag and replaced them with a hybrid.


So far so good, but 01-01-16 looms large on the putting horizon.

[A.G._Crockett]

I'm currently using two putters and have taken my 2-iron and 3-iron out of the bag and replaced them with a hybrid.


So far so good, but 01-01-16 looms large on the putting horizon.

Patrick,
My yips are long gone, for reasons that I won't go into, so I've been using a conventional putter for some time now, and I never did use the long putter.  I remain, no matter what I do, the King of the Two Putt.

But I have made a change that might interest you.  I have committed myself to a yearlong trial of Face-on/Side Saddle putting, not because of the yips but in hopes of simply making more putts.  I've gotten two putters made specifically for that style of putting, read all I could find and watched all the videos I could locate, and I've been at it for a couple of weeks now.

Tried it out in competition for the first time in an interclub match on Thursday, and I've got to say I'm encouraged.  I'm no better yet, but I'm no worse, either, and that is significant to me.  After spending 40 years trying to teach basketball players to shoot free throws, I really like a setup that feels like I'm doing exactly that except on a different plane.  More importantly, looking down the line with binocular vision REALLY feels good; I've got cataract surgery in my future, and I just do NOT see as well from a side-on position as I used to.

Like putting any change, the distance control is going to take time and a lot of practice.  But the short putts are already really comfortable and feel close to automatic; straight back, straight thru is a lot easier with one hand than with two.

You might keep it in mind when the anchoring ban comes in.  I think you'll see it turn up on the senior tour immediately afterwards, and the regular tour at some point soon.

[Patrick_Mucci]

A.G.,


A friend of mine has been "side saddling" for a few years and he putts very well.


I'd say I'm a good putter until I get close to the hole, and that's really where the long putter helped.  I improved my long putter putting when another friend, who's a good long putter, converted me to the pencil grip.


Another friend of mine who as a very good long putter is trying side saddle.


Right now there seems to be a very limited selection of side saddle putters.
That will probably change as we get closer to 01-01-16.


The fellow who's been side saddling for years claims that you see the "line" better, which would be a significant asset.


What "side saddle" putter are you using ?


What's its length ?


Thanks

[A.G._Crockett]

A.G.,


A friend of mine has been "side saddling" for a few years and he putts very well.


I'd say I'm a good putter until I get close to the hole, and that's really where the long putter helped.  I improved my long putter putting when another friend, who's a good long putter, converted me to the pencil grip.


Another friend of mine who as a very good long putter is trying side saddle.


Right now there seems to be a very limited selection of side saddle putters.
That will probably change as we get closer to 01-01-16.


The fellow who's been side saddling for years claims that you see the "line" better, which would be a significant asset.


What "side saddle" putter are you using ?


What's its length ?


Thanks

I tried the GP putter first at their recommendation of 49" (I'm 6'1").  I liked it BUT the putter head is VERY small.  I'm now using the putter that Juan Elizondo makes (named the JuanPutt, believe it or not).  I came across it while reading Randy Haag's blog about side saddle putting.  It is 46", with a much larger and heavier head, and my sense of it is that I will like it better, especially on longer putts.

As to the shorter putts, fwiw I used the side saddle putter in competition for the first time Thursday in an interclub senior matchplay event (two man better ball).  We were at their course, with champion bermuda greens instead of the bent that my course has.  I had three putts during the match of 3-5' to either tie or win a hole, and made them all; two of them were downhill sliders.  I found it to be of great comfort to be just thinking about ONLY my right hand moving back and forward, and with a pencil grip in the right hand there isn't much that can go wrong on a short putt if you can get lined up.

If you have an old long putter around, get somebody to bend it to an 80* lie angle (it may be close already?) and fiddle around some and see what you think.