Can you really identify the "Brand"

[Patrick_Mucci]

Be brutally honest, If no one told you who designed the golf course, could you identify the original architect ?

The Flynn's, Ross's, Travis's, Emmett's, AWT's, CBM's, SR's, CB's, Dye's, RTJ's, RJ's, Fazio's, Doak's, C&C's, Nicklaus's ?

Which ones are the most identifiable ?

The least identifiable ?

What would tip you off ?

What would baffle you ?

[Joey Smith]

I would have thought you'd have 5 replys to this by now...I can't wait for this one...

[Chip Gaskins]

most identifiable and why:

C&C - green complexes
dyes - bulkheads
raynor - geometric shapes

least identifiable:
still thinking..

[Ed Oden]

I can only make an educated guess that will likely be wrong much more often than right.  My best shot would probably be with Raynor or Dye, which isn't saying much.

Ed

[mike_beene]

No.

[Will MacEwen]

I think I would have a shot at Nicklaus designs - the propensity of the high draw approach (fade for you starboarders), as well as an overall feel that  I find hard to describe. 

[Matt_Cohn]

Most: Dye, Fazio, Nicklaus, *Robinson*.

Least: Ross, RTJ (so many copycats). Haven't seen a lot of the others.

[mike_beene]

At one time I would have thought Dye for the railroad ties and RTJ ,sr for those big broad shouldered elevated greens. However,like law ,the more I study and experience the less I know.

[C. Squier]

CBM/Raynor because of the template holes.  Dye because of the railroad ties.  Nicklaus because of the.......teemarkers 

[David Stamm]

When I think of the "least identifiable", Tillie springs to mind. He seemed to have so many looks to his courses.


MacKenzie and Bell were/are unmistakeable due to their unique bunker styles.

[Anthony Fowler]

Certainly the courses within the CBM, SR, CB school are recognizable.  I don't think I've played enough of them to say if I could differentiate between the 3 architects without knowing beforehand. 

David, what are the best examples out there of original Bell bunkers?  There are some great bunkers on Bell courses (Saticoy, San Diego, Annandale, La Jolla, etc.) but these are all presumably very different from the originals.  There are some fun pictures of the original San Diego bunkers in the locker room there and they certainly have a ruggedness that today's do not.  Any pictures?  (Maybe we can continue this on a new thread.)

[Tim Bert]

First off, I'd never speak in absolutes on this topic.  I haven't played a complete enough portfolio of any designers to make a statement like that.

That being said...

I have only played 4 courses by the Palmer design team and seen a couple of others.  While I don't think I could decisively say which courses are his (there may be others that design similarly or folks that used to work for the company which have branched out) - I do think I could pick his style out of a line-up with some consistency.

Dye has a tremendous amount of diversity in my opinion.  I still think I can pick out his work as well, though I would claim to do it perfectly.  Bulle Rock, for instance, would have felt an awful lot like a Dye course to me even if I didn't know it was his work.

[David Stamm]

Certainly the courses within the CBM, SR, CB school are recognizable.  I don't think I've played enough of them to say if I could differentiate between the 3 architects without knowing beforehand. 

David, what are the best examples out there of original Bell bunkers?  There are some great bunkers on Bell courses (Saticoy, San Diego, Annandale, La Jolla, etc.) but these are all presumably very different from the originals.  There are some fun pictures of the original San Diego bunkers in the locker room there and they certainly have a ruggedness that today's do not.  Any pictures?  (Maybe we can continue this on a new thread.)

Anthony, obviously because of the ravages of time the originality of his bunkers, like all of the GA archs, are all but gone. But the work that was recently done at Annandale and La Cumbre is in harmony with the look. Saticoy isn't bad, but I think Harbottle went a little overboard and I think he missed the mark if he was trying to imitate Bell sr. Keep in mind, Saticoy is not a Billy Bell but a Bell jr.  La Jolla's are pretty much Rees Jones and there isn't much bunker work that one could call Bell sr. San Diego's are a good non-restored example. Below is a photo of the 18th at SDCC from 1922 before Bell renovated it. Not very Bell like, because the course wasn't an Bell original, although he changed quite a bit.

[Bill Satterfield]

The one architect I could unquestionably identify is Jim Engh due to his unique bunkers and the bowled greens.  I used to think a MacKenzie course was very identifiable due to the bunkering until I played Wente Vineyards that Greg Norman designed and his bunkers were very similar to the good doctor.  Weiskopf's driveable par 4 with a severely undulated green would help identify one of his courses, but there are too many driveable par 4s to rely solely on that trait.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

See the "name the architect" thread.

Most architects leave reliable clues and some are much more repetitive than others.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I think the answer is both yes and no.

No, in the sense that any great architect will eventually break free of the stereotype of his work over time.  So you might be able to identify 50-60% of his work accurately, but if he's any good there will be some outliers, and there will also be some copy-cats which are difficult to dismiss.

Yes, in the sense that if you don't overthink it, there are subtle things most architects do that are not so hard to pick up.  When I started taking my first wife around on trips with me, she would always ask me who designed the courses we were seeing, and if she had seen a Robert Trent Jones course before she was quite likely to identify his work in the future -- despite hardly playing golf herself.

[Peter Pallotta]

Patrick - what's interesting to me is not that I CAN'T identify the architect, but that quite a fair number of people around here CAN. On the one hand, that means (even given Tom D's 50-60% estimate) that green shapes and bunker styles and overall aesthetic sensibility and design philosophy remain fairly constant/consistent in an architect's work and over his career.  On the other hand, we talk about (and judge) an architect's ROUTING abilities and approach quite often around here, especially that of the ODGs, and yet I'd be hard pressed to imagine that many people would say, "Ah, look at that routing - that's definitely" a Ross, or Tillinghast, or Doak or Dye etc.  It may be an indication of the relative weights we actually give the various components of design, despite their relative importance....

Peter   

[John Moore II]

Tom D--good post, and I'm glad you made it, I need to use your name in my example here.

I suppose someone who has played the sheer volume of courses Mr Doak has (I assume you've played all the courses you rated in CG, plus more since then?) may stand a far better chance of identifying a designer than someone such as myself who has played a limited number of courses (approaching 100 now), designed by a limited number of architects (never played a Raynor, CBM, Tilly, Doak, C&C, and many other architects) I may be able to identify a Ross or Fazio or Rees. But I think this question becomes easier once you have played a very broad range of courses.

[Phil McDade]

Most identifiable -- Langford/Moreau (though even Pete Dye thought one Wisconsin L/M was actually a Raynor).

Least -- Ross.

[DMoriarty]

Patrick,

It seems like the question might invite a focus more on aesthetic styling rather than core strategic design principles.  Aesthetic styling is at least somewhat dependent upon the builder, and the builder is not necessarily always in sync with the designer.   So it is possible at least that a designer's work might come to be closely associated with the aesthetics of another, or visa versa.   

Take George Thomas whose reputation has become closely associated with the look of Billy Bell's bunkers, while onhis courses before his affiliation with Bell his bunkers apparently looked nothing like the bunkers for which he eventually became famous.   Or for that matter, doesn't some question exist about whether it was Tillinghast or Bell who was responsible for the look of the Tillinghast bunkers at SFGC?  Also I have heard that the look of a Ross course was very different when he was actually hands-on and involved in the project, as opposed to just planning off of a topographic map and mailing it in.

Likewise, sometimes aesthetics evolve, change, or even become caricatured over the years, even where the fundamental strategic underpinings of the course have not been altered.

So while it may be possible to identify architects by aesthetic styling this my only be true where the architect was involved in the building process, or where the architect had a consistent builder. 

[Greg Tallman]

If the designer has both passion and talent probably not.

If the designer has moderate to low levels of either probably so.

[Sean_A]

Certainly the courses within the CBM, SR, CB school are recognizable.  I don't think I've played enough of them to say if I could differentiate between the 3 architects without knowing beforehand. 

David, what are the best examples out there of original Bell bunkers?  There are some great bunkers on Bell courses (Saticoy, San Diego, Annandale, La Jolla, etc.) but these are all presumably very different from the originals.  There are some fun pictures of the original San Diego bunkers in the locker room there and they certainly have a ruggedness that today's do not.  Any pictures?  (Maybe we can continue this on a new thread.)

Anthony, obviously because of the ravages of time the originality of his bunkers, like all of the GA archs, are all but gone. But the work that was recently done at Annandale and La Cumbre is in harmony with the look. Saticoy isn't bad, but I think Harbottle went a little overboard and I think he missed the mark if he was trying to imitate Bell sr. Keep in mind, Saticoy is not a Billy Bell but a Bell jr.  La Jolla's are pretty much Rees Jones and there isn't much bunker work that one could call Bell sr. San Diego's are a good non-restored example. Below is a photo of the 18th at SDCC from 1922 before Bell renovated it. Not very Bell like, because the course wasn't an Bell original, although he changed quite a bit.

David

Thanks for posting that pic.  I wonder why more bunkers aren't designed this way out west.  They are so similar to a links in style and being encircled by fairway that its scarey.  I have been wondering if there was some sort of east coast/west coast divide in bunker placement.  I haven't seen a lot of evidence that would suggest that bunkering (by the time of the Golden Age) in th east was truly fairway bunkering - rather instead wing bunkering.  I have no proof at all, but it seems to me that the California courses used more fairway bunkering and/or turns of land with bunkering that was essentially centreline even if in the rough.  Do you have any thoughts on this David?

Ciao

[Gary Slatter]

Patrick, normally I think I can identify the architect.  Unless he/she is completely new to me and someone would have told me, or why would I be playing the course anyway?  I don't think I've played very many courses without knowing who designed them.  And I don't believe the Old Course wasn't designed.

Anyway, last Thursday I played the ARDEN COURSE near Birmingham.  Unfortunately I was playing with a group of professionals and for some reason we played from a wet 7213 yards.  It was the toughest test of golf I have ever played.  Two completely different nines makes me think it has two designers.  The problem is I couldn't find out who did the course.  It has hosted several European Tour events.  The scorecard and the Strokesaver do not mention anyone.

BTW  the course was excellent, I liked the back nine much better but overall the course was superb, the distance was too much for me and my kidney stone but a great challenge.  My one criticism would be too many water hazards on the front nine.   Great par three finishing hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Without benefit of pre-knowledge, and based on the architecture alone,

Could anyone identify Sebonack as a Tom Doak - Jack Nicklaus golf course ?

Could anyone identify Bandon Dunes's architect ?

Could anyone identify Pacific Dunes's architect ?

Could anyone identify Maidstone's architect ?

Garden City ?

Shinnecock ?

NGLA ?

Seminole ?

Aronomink ?

Merion ?

Pine Valley ?

Ridgewood ?

Hollywood ?

I think we're mostly Monday morning quarterbacks in this area.