[Dan Herrmann]

Mike,
I, too, think that post 146 summarizes things exceptionally well.   

Tom - do yourself a favor and try to distance yourself from David's tactics - we'll get you over to the good side

[Mark_F]

Wow.

This is fabulous stuff.

It's on a par with all those St Andrews Beach threads from a couple of years ago...

[TEPaul]

"So does this mean that you are planning to let the MCC records speak for themselves? Terrific.  When?"

When?

What is this, about the fifteenth time I've explained to you when MCC and Merion decide to? Is there something particularly complicated in that you can't understand? Both Merion and MCC have telephone numbers and anyone can call them up and ask to see their archives and records. Apparently you're under some impression that they have to engage in some open door policy with everyone that way How naive are you anyway? Or is it arrogant? They read this website too, you know, and I'd have to guess you closed that door for yourself months ago. Maybe you'll begin to understand why around about the time you realize that not everything revolves around you.

[Dan Herrmann]

David - you could use investigation into Highland CC's minutes as a practice run for MCC/Merion.   

[TEPaul]

Dan:

He should have thought of that somewhere between six months and five years ago. I suspect it's way too late for any practice runs into MCC/Merion for that cat now.

[Thomas MacWood]

Why all the protestations. The article was published last year. Is there a prohibilition against discussing the information contained with in it? I don't recall anyone complaining about my articles being scrutinized. A&C, Bethpage, Alison, Simpson, Crump, 1890s Architects. Hell I've always welcomed it and never backed down from those exchanges. I wasn't crazy about the personal attacks, but thats different. No article on GCA has ever been picked apart more than David's Merion essay. I don't recall anyone being outraged. This is the standard that has been set for several years now.

I think there are negatives and postives to that standard. I think it may discourage first timers from writing something for fear they may be embaraced. On the positive side I think it raises the level of the essays, you better have your facts and conclusions tightly formed or else.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'll tell you what Tom MacWood and David Moriarty...

I'm a fairly emotional guy, but you have to be pretty freaking blatantly wrong to piss off Dan Hermann, yet that's what you've managed to do.

Dan is about the nicest man on the planet and the only thing I can imagine that would piss him off is watching something that he deems as being purposefully hurtful to someone who doesn't deserve it.

I suspect you guys could piss off Mother Teresa if she were here..

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike
I don't doubt Dan is a very nice man, but your complaints would mean more if you and Dan showed some consistancy. It appears you two only become pissed off when the subject hits close to home. That is called hypocracy.

[DMoriarty]

David - you could use investigation into Highland CC's minutes as a practice run for MCC/Merion.   

Not sure what you mean Dan.   I've done no investigation into Highland Country Club.  Just came across an article that mentions Pickering and Findlay having worked on the course around 1908.   

[Dan Herrmann]

David,
I just thought that you could research Highland CC's minutes becuase they claim their course was designed by a different gentleman than you felt did the work.  I find it somewhat amusing that so many clubs claim that a different person designed their course than you do.

Next thing you know, we'll hear that William Flynn didn't design Lancaster, Rolling Green, or Lehigh. 

I'm all for getting the story right.  And sometimes populist history is wrong.  But this isn't the legal profession or journalism - it's historical research.  And that in itself demands a certain academic acumen that you, frankly, lack right now.   

For crying out loud  -  just be nice and let anything you feel is a sllight just run off like water on a duck's back. 

All I know is that Merion is the best experience I've ever had in golf.  The staff, the members, the courses, and the history are all WORLD class.  They really know their place in history and are proud of their little oasis of green on the Main Line.  Nobody I've ever met there was even the slightest bit elitist.  They are truly role models - from the locker room attendant to the caddies to the pro to the members to the guy that runs their historical committee.     

I'm far from perfect and have plenty of flaws.   I'm too assertive somtimes and I have a lack of tolerance for injustice.

And the slings and arrows thrown at Tom, Wayne, and Mike are not just.  They're three classy guys that don't deserve it. 

Just stop - please...  Keep everything at the academic level and play nice.  We don't need GCA.com, an oasis of civility, to debase into the tone of the BMW forum I look at, where people argue forever.

Love you all!

[Adam_Messix]

Dan--

Very well put.  I never thought this website was the place for calling people out, which is what's happening here. 

A question as far as Fred Pickering goes...  When did he die?  If he was Findlays' right hand, I would be curious to know whether Pickering was involved in the club where I grew up that Findlay designed. 

Mike C--

I have not had the opportunity to look at any aerials of Kilcare, but I think it would be pretty easy to tell if it were an Alex Findlay from a stylistic standpoint.  Do you agree?

[Mike_Cirba]

Dan--

Very well put.  I never thought this website was the place for calling people out, which is what's happening here. 

A question as far as Fred Pickering goes...  When did he die?  If he was Findlays' right hand, I would be curious to know whether Pickering was involved in the club where I grew up that Findlay designed. 

Mike C--

I have not had the opportunity to look at any aerials of Kilcare, but I think it would be pretty easy to tell if it were an Alex Findlay from a stylistic standpoint.  Do you agree?

Adam,

I'm now very curious about Pickering.

Besides Alex Findlay and perhaps Tom Bendelow there is no question that he had the most input into course creation in this country and was involved with various architects and high-profile projects.   

The fact he claimed to have over 300 courses worked on by 1905 is simply staggering.

I'm wondering where he was born...was he ever overseas...when did he die?

As far as Kilcare, if Findlay designed it, the aerials should give us a clue of that, I agree.

[Patrick_Mucci]

David,
I just thought that you could research Highland CC's minutes becuase they claim their course was designed by a different gentleman than you felt did the work.  I find it somewhat amusing that so many clubs claim that a different person designed their course than you do.

Next thing you know, we'll hear that William Flynn didn't design Lancaster, Rolling Green, or Lehigh.

Dan, you can't wave the white flag and offer a piece pipe and then taunt the other party in the next sentence.[/color] 

I'm all for getting the story right.  And sometimes populist history is wrong.  But this isn't the legal profession or journalism - it's historical research.  And that in itself demands a certain academic acumen that you, frankly, lack right now.   

For crying out loud  -  just be nice and let anything you feel is a sllight just run off like water on a duck's back. 

All I know is that Merion is the best experience I've ever had in golf.  The staff, the members, the courses, and the history are all WORLD class. 

They really know their place in history and are proud of their little oasis of green on the Main Line. 

I believe you are incorrect.
It would seem that David's research corrected an error in Merion's history, namely, Wilson's alleged travels abroad prior to designing Merion.

I think his essay raised interesting questions that hadn't been asked previously and that the exercise that ensued provided valuable information.

His essay wasn't well received in some quarters, and, that was BEFORE it was ever released.

I can understand why David is gunshy or pre-emptive in his approach.[/color]

Nobody I've ever met there was even the slightest bit elitist.  They are truly role models - from the locker room attendant to the caddies to the pro to the members to the guy that runs their historical committee.     

I'm glad that you had such a positive experience.

I'm far from perfect and have plenty of flaws.   I'm too assertive somtimes and I have a lack of tolerance for injustice.

And the slings and arrows thrown at Tom, Wayne, and Mike are not just.  They're three classy guys that don't deserve it. 


Dan, Shirley you jest ?

To be fair to David, this hasn't been a one way street with respect to slings and arrows.

Just stop - please...  Keep everything at the academic level and play nice. 


If you reread David's essay on Merion I think you can make a reasonable case that it was at the academic level, wouldn't you agree ?

We don't need GCA.com, an oasis of civility, to debase into the tone of the BMW forum I look at, where people argue forever.

Passionate debate should be encouraged, even if it gets contentuous at times.

I've found that most of the Merion threads, dating back to the early bunker threads, were very informative, despite the personal frictions.

While I would like to see less hostility between the parties mentioned I don't know that anything other than time will allow that.

Interesting subject matter and informed discussions educate all of us.

[mike_malone]

 This thread is generating a lot of heat but little light.

[Thomas MacWood]

I went back and looked at Flynn's obituary in the NY Times, and caught something I had overlooked before.

"Mr. Flynn built his first golf course at the age of 19 at Hartwellville, Vt. Subsequently he designed courses at the Seaview CC, Boca Raton, Fla; the Philadelphia CC, the Merion (Pa) GC, and the Tarrytown (NY) CC."

Perhaps there is a distinction between building and designing.

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom - my club was designed by Gil Hanse, but its infrastructure was "built" by George E. Ley Co.  (http://www.gelcogolf.com/)

[Thomas MacWood]

New Flynn Timeline

1906-1909 - Flynn competes in Basketball, Baseball, Football and Golf for Milton HS

7/1907 - Flynn wins the Greater Boston Interscholastic golf championship at Wollaston

2/1908 - Wollaston announces plans to redesign their golf course

7/1908 - Carl Anderson defeats Flynn in the Greater Boston IGC at Wollaston

11/1908 - American Golfer reports Wollaston is laying out its course anew

11/1908 - Alex Findaly returns from a tour of the great British and Irish courses

4/1909 - Wollaston has new layout in Boston Globe

6/1909 - American Golfer article on the planned changes to Wollaston

6/1909 - It is announced Flynn will not compete in the Greater Boston IGC; he is turning professional

7/1909 - It is announced Carl Anderson will not compete in the GBIGC; he is turning professional

7/1909 - Flynn is doing well as a golf professional at Lake Placid Club (Seymour Dunn head pro)

10/1909 - First nine at Belmont Springs opened, designed by Ross, built by Pickering. The course is praised

5/1910 - Flynn living at home at Milton, profession listed as golf teacher

5/1910 - Alex Findlay is reinstated as an amateur

10/1910 - Flynn marries Lillian Gardner of Milton. It is mentioned he is employed as a golf instructor at a NY club

Spring 1911 - Construction begins at Merion (is Flynn involved?)

1912 - Kilkare GC at Heartwellville founded

1912 - Alex Findlay living in Philadelphia

5/1913 - Construction at Kilkare under the direction of Pickering is nearly complete.

1913 - At some point this year Flynn takes the lead from Pickering on the West course construction


Flynn's HS rival Carl Anderson went on to become a fairly successful golf architect himself, operating mostly in Florida. It appears Flynn's postion at Lake Placid was seasonal.

Were both Pickering and Flynn involved in the construction of the original Merion East?

[TEPaul]

"Were both Pickering and Flynn involved in the design of the original Merion East?"

It's just very hard to say because their names just aren't mentioned in anything we've seen at that time. We believe Flynn probably worked on the maintenance crew even at Haverford but we aren't sure.

In a report to the board probably written by Wilson but delivered by Lesley or Lloyd in April of 1911 when they had an approved design and were ramping up for construction that they did not have a decent greenkeeper and they were not prepared with the tools or a crew to construct with what they had. That's why they chose Johnson Contractors because of a large crew availability and the opportunity to cancel them out with a week's notice. Maybe Findlay was with Johnson Contractors but that isn't mentioned. It was even mentioned what Johnson Contractors needed to do which makes me sense that the first phase of Merion East was a whole lot more architecturally minimal than even we expected or realized. Matter of fact, if one really thinks through the entire course it probably is a whole lot more "landform" reliant and consequently man-made architecture minimal than most understand and certainly a whole lot more than it actually looks at first blush. If that's true, I think that's pretty cool as well, and it says a ton for Wilson and his committee (which has been referred to in later histories).

In a letter to Piper and Oakley Wilson mentioned they needed a good greenkeeper, that they tried for one but couldn't get him because his wife or whatever wanted to go somewhere else. In another letter Wilson mentioned to Oakley that they got a good greenkeeper but he didn't mention his name. Maybe it was Flynn because even if he was young he was obviously coming up fast as we can tell by what he was doing in the next few years.

Wilson had been collaborating with other clubs and other greenkeepers in the area to get some ballpark ideas about construction costs, agronomic and annual operating costs.

There isn't much question even if the specifics aren't well recorded that Hugh Wilson was in control of all things to do with the course (architecturally and agronomically) from the git-go in 1911.

The point is some things just weren't recorded and consequently are probably just not knowable regarding details of who did what and when specifically. For Wayne and my part we're OK with leaving it at that. We will let others speculate about who did what specifically even if that includes passing off speculation as fact which has been done by some on here so much recently.

[TEPaul]

"Perhaps there is a distinction between building and designing."


Mr. MacWood:

That is very possible, matter of fact it might be likely. If so, that sort of confusion was pretty common back then (thinking a constructors was the architect). The best known example might be Kittansett G.C. and that perception seemingly lasted for over 75 years until it was finally corrected by the production of Flynn's detailed design and construction plans.

[John Mayhugh]

Pat Mucci
That's pretty much the most sensible thing I've read on this thread.  Thanks.

[DMoriarty]

Tom MacWood,

David,
I just thought that you could research Highland CC's minutes becuase they claim their course was designed by a different gentleman than you felt did the work.  I find it somewhat amusing that so many clubs claim that a different person designed their course than you do.

Dan,

Could you elaborate on the identity of these "so many clubs?"   

The Boston Journal apparently thought Findlay and Pickering were responsible for a course at Highland CC in 1909.   I am confused as to how you could find my bringing this forward offensive or amusing or whatever you apparently find it.

Next thing you know, we'll hear that William Flynn didn't design Lancaster, Rolling Green, or Lehigh.

Why?   Are there newspaper articles written around the time these courses were built that indicate that someone else designed these courses?   

I'm all for getting the story right.  And sometimes populist history is wrong.  But this isn't the legal profession or journalism - it's historical research.  And that in itself demands a certain academic acumen that you, frankly, lack right now.

For crying out loud  -  just be nice and let anything you feel is a sllight just run off like water on a duck's back. 

All I know is that Merion is the best experience I've ever had in golf.  The staff, the members, the courses, and the history are all WORLD class.  They really know their place in history and are proud of their little oasis of green on the Main Line.  Nobody I've ever met there was even the slightest bit elitist.  They are truly role models - from the locker room attendant to the caddies to the pro to the members to the guy that runs their historical committee.

I think you may be confusing my thoughts about Merion with my thoughts about a few posters here, some of whom have little or nothing to do with the club.

My thoughts about Merion, its members, and its history are expressed in my essay.  I have nothing but respect for Merion and its history.  Otherwise, I would have never devoted a substantial amount of time studying it, writing about it, and even defending it.  (Yes, defending it.)   I don't like to publicly discuss my experiences at clubs where I have been a guest, but I will say that my experiences there have been very positive, much the same as yours.    Merion deserves to know the true, accurate, and complete history of their great club and course, and my essay represents a substantial step in that direction.

I'm far from perfect and have plenty of flaws.   I'm too assertive somtimes and I have a lack of tolerance for injustice.

And the slings and arrows thrown at Tom, Wayne, and Mike are not just.  They're three classy guys that don't deserve it.

The words and actions of Tom, Wayne, and Mike tell a different story, but that is one that you apparently are intent on overlooking.   Your admonishment of me in the same sentence you praise them says quite a lot about your perspective on this matter. 

Just stop - please...  Keep everything at the academic level and play nice.  We don't need GCA.com, an oasis of civility, to debase into the tone of the BMW forum I look at, where people argue forever.

Love you all!

Dan, as I said above, the Boston Journal noted that Pickering and Flynn did a course for Highland Country Club in 1908.   I cannot think of a more academically neutral way of saying it than that.

__________________________________

Tom MacWood,

Reportedly, Highland's opening of the Findlay/Pickering course was scheduled for April 1909, so one might assume that the work was done in the fall of 1908.   Is there any chance Flynn joined Pickering at Highland CC? 

______________________________________

"Perhaps there is a distinction between building and designing."


Mr. MacWood:

That is very possible, matter of fact it might be likely. If so, that sort of confusion was pretty common back then (thinking a constructors was the architect). The best known example might be Kittansett G.C. and that perception seemingly lasted for over 75 years until it was finally corrected by the production of Flynn's detailed design and construction plans.

Who constructed Kittansett?

[TEPaul]

"I believe you are incorrect.
It would seem that David's research corrected an error in Merion's history, namely, Wilson's alleged travels abroad prior to designing Merion."


Patrick:

That is absolutely correct. But to be technically correct what David Moriarty discovered was that Wilson really did go abroad in 1912. He did that with ship manifest research. But that doesn't explain much about what he did over there then. What he actually went over there for in March/April 1912 was confirmed by two other discoveries;

1. Tom MacWood finding a article in an English newspaper reporting what he was over there for.
2. A letter I found in the "agronomy" files this year from Richard Francis to Russell Oakley mentioning Wilson's 1912 trip abroad.

As far as proving a 1910 trip probably never happened, David Moriarty did not do that. We did. We believe we found the app. date or era when that story was first generated. David Moriarty definitely did not discover that even if he might try to claim he did somehow.

In my opinion, the 1912 trip abroad is what he contributed to Merion's history. All the rest about Macdonald doing a routing in 1910 and H.H. Barker contributing to Merion's design, the Francis late night visit to Lloyd in 1910 is highly speculative and frankly has been proven false by other recordings and other events of that time.

Of course he might try to continue to deny that as he always has but nevertheless it's the truth. The other salient point is that it does not become the truth when he actually gets to look at it and analyze it. This rationale that everyone is lying if they don't agree with his conjecture has really gotten old and has been completely debunked anyway.

But that's just the way it goes with the life and times of some researcher from afar. So it's not his fault---it's pretty much an inherent reality for his kind of research methodology.

[TEPaul]

"Who constructed Kittansett?"


We can't prove it but the best evidence seems to point to local crews not overseen by one of Flynn's foremen and probably overseen by Frederick Hood himself. After the design (Flynn's design and construction drawings) and before construction began Kittansett came to realize they had a massive rock problem they had not considered. It pretty much busted their projected budget but Hood went ahead anyway. It's all contained in the Kittansett history book assuming it isn't blatantly lying too.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

As I told you privately and David publicly, I think his Merion report did some real good;  it caused a number of us to dig into areas of Merion's history that we heretofore had never thought to research, probably because we didn't see it as germane to our overall understanding, but that's ok.  

In fact, we're still at it as the recent findings about Fred Pickering illustrate, but even items like finding that Hugh Wilson was on the Green Committee of the new course being built at Princeton in 1901 help to shape the entire picture in ways none of us ever previously imagined or understood.

We also now know that the Merion Committee developed multiple routings (plans) and we now know clearly what Alan Wilson meant when he praised Macdonald & Whigham for "advising as to our planS", emphasis on plural.   We also know now the reasons for the consistent term "advise" as opposed to design, layout, plan, or any other terminology referring to the act of conceiving the golf holes.   However, we also never knew that M&W helped the committee select the best of their plans in April 1912.

David and Tom also proved that Hugh Wilson went over in 1912 to study architecture.   We also know Wilson didn't go over in 1911, but are still uncertain whether he ever went abroad prior.

So, as I mentioned to you, I think David & Tom's research has been very valuable overall, and even with all of the acrimony, it seems we've all collectively learned a lot during this whole process despite ourselves.

[Thomas MacWood]

"Were both Pickering and Flynn involved in the design of the original Merion East?"

It's just very hard to say because their names just aren't mentioned in anything we've seen at that time. We believe Flynn probably worked on the maintenance crew even at Haverford but we aren't sure.

In a report to the board probably written by Wilson but delivered by Lesley or Lloyd in April of 1911 when they had an approved design and were ramping up for construction that they did not have a decent greenkeeper and they were not prepared with the tools or a crew to construct with what they had. That's why they chose Johnson Contractors because of a large crew availability and the opportunity to cancel them out with a week's notice. Maybe Findlay was with Johnson Contractors but that isn't mentioned. It was even mentioned what Johnson Contractors needed to do which makes me sense that the first phase of Merion East was a whole lot more architecturally minimal than even we expected or realized. Matter of fact, if one really thinks through the entire course it probably is a whole lot more "landform" reliant and consequently man-made architecture minimal than most understand and certainly a whole lot more than it actually looks at first blush. If that's true, I think that's pretty cool as well, and it says a ton for Wilson and his committee (which has been referred to in later histories).

In a letter to Piper and Oakley Wilson mentioned they needed a good greenkeeper, that they tried for one but couldn't get him because his wife or whatever wanted to go somewhere else. In another letter Wilson mentioned to Oakley that they got a good greenkeeper but he didn't mention his name. Maybe it was Flynn because even if he was young he was obviously coming up fast as we can tell by what he was doing in the next few years.

Wilson had been collaborating with other clubs and other greenkeepers in the area to get some ballpark ideas about construction costs, agronomic and annual operating costs.

There isn't much question even if the specifics aren't well recorded that Hugh Wilson was in control of all things to do with the course (architecturally and agronomically) from the git-go in 1911.

The point is some things just weren't recorded and consequently are probably just not knowable regarding details of who did what and when specifically. For Wayne and my part we're OK with leaving it at that. We will let others speculate about who did what specifically even if that includes passing off speculation as fact which has been done by some on here so much recently.

TE
In his article last summer Wayne wrote that Flynn after completeing Kilkare accepted a postion working under Pickering on the construction crew of Merion East.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()