[Mike_Cirba]

Cmon Jeff..it's the Phillies year! 

[Jeff Fortson]

I have been posting on GCA since 2001 (I think).  I took a hiatus for about a year because I thought there was too many "anonymous" posters blasting away at people.  This is something very different.  These guys are letting it all hang out against each other over some legitimate differences in opinion.  I think what they are discussing IS relevant to GCA.  After all that is what this website is really about... architecture and architects. 

Fortunately, I have had the pleasure of playing with both Wayne and David and to be honest I think both of them are gracious, kind gentlemen.  I know they may not think that of each other but I feel I'm a fair judge of character and from what I have experienced I found them both to be good people.  I do think that all four (Macwood/Moriarty/Paul/Morrison) have much to contribute to the site and to our education as all four have shown to do great research.  I, like many, wish that the tone were different from the Macwood/Moriarty vs. Paul/Morrison debates, but it seems that the parties in question may have dug a hole that would be tough to climb out of.  I hope they do for all of our sake because they have educated me on many things I would never have thought of researching.

Please don't let your differences drive you from the site gentlemen. 


Jeff F.

 

[Mark_Fine]

Jeff,
I mostly agree except they SHOULD TAKE IT ALL OFFLINE so the rest of us don't need to deal with it.  NUMEROUS threads get contaminated and then many of us just don't want to contribute for fear of getting sucked in.

There is this new communication medium called email!!  They should use that for their debates and spare the rest of us. 
Mark

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne,
Just get your Flynn book published and most of these questions and critics will be silenced.  If nothing else, do an abbreviated version (250 pages will do) as golf architecture would benefit from something like this.  As you know, I am tempted to publish something on Flynn if you and Tom decide not to do so or just want to stick with the 2000 page multi-volume version which unfortunatley I do not believe will help get the message out on Flynn (even I would struggle to read 2000 pages) and I love the guy almost as much as you do  

Mark
Thanks for the excellent advice. I guess you weren't too worried about getting sucked in when you posted the above, no doubt it helped smooth things out. First telling Wayne how to silence the critics and then offering your own criticism, and then treatening to publish your own Flynn book. Its too bad you could not share any of your Flynn expertise....threads tend to go south when off topic stuff is introduced.

[DMoriarty]

Let's please move on.

I'd love to move on Mike, but you and Wayne keep injecting Merion into almost every thread, just like you did on this one.   If you want to move on, then that's great.  Let's.  But in the mean time don't expect for your disingenuous  and inaccurate posts and conclusions to remain unchecked.

___________________________________

Hey Jeff,

Nice to see your name.

There is plenty of interesting information in here somewhere, but it is almost impossible these days to have any sort of in depth discussion without it ending up like this.  Apparently, the golf course history of the entire Eastern seaboard belongs to Wayne and Tom Paul, and any attempt by anyone else to study it or discuss it must be taken as an attempt to embarrass them.    Personally, I'd like to see it stop and would be glad to back way off, so that we could actually discuss this stuff.   It could easily happen, but Wayne and TEPaul have no desire to see this, so we are pretty much stuck where we are.   A major waste of time.

______________________________________
Mark Fine,

Taking it off line would make no sense.  There is no real communication going on here to take offline.  Wayne hurling insults and making unsupported claims would not serve his purposes off line.   Besides, apparently Wayne has absolutely nothing to bring to the table.   He is hoarding his information (or lack of information) and analysis because he is afraid to show it to anyone who might actually question it.

[Mark_Fine]

Tom M,
There is no threat.  Wayne knows where I stand as I have offered on several occasions in the past to help in any way I can with his book.  He also knows I have an interest in publishing something on Flynn as I believe it is long over due.  I felt the same way about a book on hazards and Forrest and I got that one done.  I also still believe that a 2000 page thesis is great but will only get in the hands of a few people.  Something much shorter along the lines of what Doak did on Mackenzie or Klein did on Ross is more of what I had in mind (250 pages is plenty). 

I have refrained from doing something on Flynn as I have been respectfully waiting for Wayne's book to come out.  Furthermore, it is not a competition!  This would be something good for golf course architecture.  And finally it sure is not for the money.  Anyone writes a golf architecture book knows you spend far more then you ever get back (ask my wife or Forrest's  ).  You do it for the fun and the passion.   

Enjoy your discussion as I am now backing out (hopefully I can)
Mark 

[mike_malone]

 Mark,

  Any thoughts on Flynn influences?

[Mike_Cirba]

I'd love to move on Mike, but you and Wayne keep injecting Merion into almost every thread, just like you did on this one.   If you want to move on, then that's great.  Let's.  But in the mean time don't expect for your disingenuous  and inaccurate posts and conclusions to remain unchecked.

David,

You're a funny guy, I have to tell you.

Let's see...let's you and Tom MacWood start a thread on "William Flynn's influences" just out of the blue?

This has nothing at all to do with the last several years on here dealing with Merion or the fact that Tom Paul and wayne Morrison have written a book on William Flynn?   There are hundreds if not thousands of possible subjects, but this is purely coincidence, I'm sure.   

THis is just innocent curiosity, right??   Academic research???   

Then, when someone introduces Flynn's...oh...12 years working side by side with Hugh Wilson and another dozen on his own at Merion, you accuse us of interjecting Merion into the thread.

Oh...I get it.

Those formative years didn't influence Flynn at all.

Instead...it must have been Willie Campbell, in Boston...or perhaps Herbert Barker....damn, it must have been because Flynn never went overseas so how would he ever get his empty American head filled with the proper pointers of linksland design?   Perhaps Campbell, Barker, and even Alex Findlay captured 5'4" 135 pound little Billy Flynn in a dark Boston alleyway and held him down and pounded the rules of golf mercilessly into him?

This is reaching absurdist comedy levels.   You guys would argue that Groucho Marx or even Karl Marx designed Merion before giving proper and due credit to Hugh Wilson and his committee. 

[Thomas MacWood]

Mark,

  Any thoughts on Flynn influences?

Thank you. Mark wants to write a book on Flynn but yet does not share any of his wisdom on this tread.

Mark
Perhaps you can get things back on track. Who or what do you think were Flynn's influences? Did he travel abroad?

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike
Why so defensive? If Wayne or TE or you or whomever are not comfortable discussing Flynn's influences no one is forcing you. They can simply stay on the sidelines. Wayne has been researching Flynn for a number of years, if anyone should know his influences, he should. He's never been hesitant before discussing Flynn, as you know he is constantly sharing info on WSF, but whatever he's not too keen to discuss this subject, which is fine with me. No need to turn this thread into another Merion meltdown.

What do you know of Heartwellville?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

I don't know anything about Heartwellville.   Wasn't that a movie where they made it into black and white and everyone was annoyingly pleasant? 

Truly, I don't Tom.   Why don't you tell us what you know.

No defensiveness here.   I"m ready to learn that Willie Campbell and Herbert Barker tag-teamed little Billy Flynn, so let's hear it. 

Just don't tell us that Flynn lived with Campbell growing up.   

[TEPaul]

Mike Cirba:

Everything you mentioned in posts #68 and #71 is correct. If Tom MacWood and David Moriarty  disagree with it they are simply incorrect and inaccurate. There's no reason to argue with those two or even discuss the details of Merion's history with them; they are substantively inaccurate and incorrect and that's just the way it is. Merion's records prove them to be incorrect but if they want to continue to claim that the internal and contemporaneous records of club after club are inaccurate and incorrect and lies or hyperbole or whatever else they constantly say, just let them. If this website wants to entertain any of their notions then let them but it's a waste of time and it's historic revisionism.

Wayne, you are right in what you said about the Gardner family of Boston and Flynn's wife's connection. The Gardners trace their American roots back to the Mayflower. They are, however, obviously a very large family through those generations albeit extremely socially and politically prominenent. Believe me, I do know, and I don't need newspaper and magazine articles to inform me of that!

[TEPaul]

Jeff Forston:

Pretty good post above. For my part, I'm not going to get personal about any of these discussions anymore, no matter what the other two say to the contrary. All I'm going to do is state on here when I know and believe they are wrong about what they say, and most certainly historically.

[Kirk Gill]

If I remember correctly from a post that Wayne made a while back, Heartwellville was the first design he credited to Flynn at around 1911, before he spent four years at Merion, yes?  Needless to say those years at Merion had to have been hugely influential on Flynn, but it would be interesting to know what Heartwellville was like, just as a basis for comparison between his first and his later designs.

Since Flynn worked on Merion and his "fingerprints" are on it, so to speak, it's somewhat difficult to determine what elements of the course were the most influential on his later work, if that makes any sense. And Wayne made a major point early on in this thread - you have to have a strong familiarity with his designs to be able to intuit what his influences might have been.

So I have two questions. For those who have played a number of his designs, is there a clear path from some earlier designer that he ever seemed to emulate (or that he clearly tried to distance his work from), or secondly, in any writings did Flynn ever personally acknowledge the influence of any particular designer, or course?

[TEPaul]

So I have two questions. For those who have played a number of his designs, is there a clear path from some earlier designer that he ever seemed to emulate (or that he clearly tried to distance his work from), or secondly, in any writings did Flynn ever personally acknowledge the influence of any particular designer, or course?
 
 
 
Kirk:

You asked:

1. "Is there a clear path from some earlier designer that he ever seemed to emulate (or tried to clearly distance his work from)?"

There is not.

If Flynn was influenced by some other architect he never wrote anything about that we're aware of. As far as distancing himself from various architects he never said anything about that either although he did make a joke about Scottish linksland architects and golfers and their abhorence of trees. Flynn was a real innovator and we're pretty comfortable that he came up with a lot of architectural ideas on his own. Perhaps he got them from somewhere or somebody but on both counts figuring out from whom would be rank speculation in my opinion.

There are architectural elements, however, like his use of so-called "separated" or "interrupted" fairways and his frequent use of 100 yard long bunker schemes that we feel strongly was an influence of Pine Valley on him. Flynn was a member of Pine Valley and he worked there frequently for a period of time after George Crump's death.

There is also little question in our minds that Flynn's basic bunker style was an influence from Merion whether that was Merion's influence on him or his influence on Merion or perhaps a little of both. The basic shape and style is very similar as was his penchant for ideally letting bunkers grow or grass in over time----a process that Merion East used for years. Flynn was totally fascinated by multiple grass strains and he was considered to be one of America's greatest experts on grass strains on-course and experimentally.

2. "In his writings did Flynn ever personally acknowledge the influence or any particular designer or course?"

Flynn was not a prolific writer on architecture although he did write a series of articles on architecture for the USGA's Green section Bulletin which are fairly comprehensive on his ideas on a lot of things to do with golf course architecture. However, in those articles he never bothered to say WHERE or from WHOM his ideas came.

[TEPaul]

"Third, and most importantly, the version you just set out is entirely inconsistent with Merion's history as commonly understood by you and everyone else before my essay.   I don't recall the you, Wayne, Merion, TEPaul or anyone else ever mentioning that Macdonald helped them design the course and that he was ultimately responsible for choosing the final routing.   

As I recall it, you and others always argued that Macdonald was nothing but a glorified travel agent, and that if there was anything beyond that, then Merion politely listened to what he had to say and then went about the business if ignoring him."


The foregoing is a complete exaggeration and fabrication on David Moriarty's part. Neither Wayne Morrison nor me NOR Merion ever said anything like that. It's a complete exaggeration and/or fabrication. Not only does he offer his conjecture on here as fact he also says people said things they never remotely said. It's not even worth asking him to supply evidence of us saying that because even he knows he can't.  But even with or without asking it is important to note he never will offer any evidence of that.

Some of the details we reported on here from MCC's archives has probably not been reported in a century. At this point I'm sorry we ever mentioned it on this website with David Moriarty and Tom MacWood on here. Had they not been on here I'm quite sure neither one of us would regret mentioning what we did.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom Paul,

It really is a shame it's come to that, isn't it?

I'm not sure I'd ever have the gall to attack someone trying to research and discover and report the history of their own club, but it seems that it's open season here and that's to our collective detriment.

In an age of tabloid journalism, and "truths at all cost" and "nothing but the facts", it seems commons sense, common courtesy, and just simple respect for one's private life and personal associations has gone out the window, and most of us don't even blink, much less be outraged.

I think it was Kurt Vonnegut who said in reaction to some of the hypocritically false idealism of the 60s, "screw love...how about just some simple common courtesy and respect!"

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom,

I don't know anything about Heartwellville.   Wasn't that a movie where they made it into black and white and everyone was annoyingly pleasant? 

Truly, I don't Tom.   Why don't you tell us what you know.

No defensiveness here.   I"m ready to learn that Willie Campbell and Herbert Barker tag-teamed little Billy Flynn, so let's hear it. 

Just don't tell us that Flynn lived with Campbell growing up.   

Heartwellville's official name was Kilkare GC. Kilkare was the summer home of WB Plunkett a wealthy textile mfger. His company Berkshire Cotton was a precursor to Berkshire Hathaway. He lived in North Adams, Mass in far western Mass. Heartwellville is about 15 miles north just across the border in Vermont. Plunkett's private golf course was founded in 1912, although not completed until 1913. It was a nine hole course 3110 yards (long at the time), and was considered a very stiff test. It hosted a major invitational in 1917 in conjunction with Belmont GC in Boston. The tournament was designed to raise money for the war effort.

Local reports make no mention of Flynn; his brother-in-law Fred Pickering oversaw construction. Pickering was the greenkeeper at Belmont. Flynn's obituary in the 40's listed Heartwellville as his first design. Wayne & TE claim Flynn and his bride moved to Heartwellville in 1909, and that he designed the course at the age of 19, that same year.  

Plunkett was a prominent figure in Republican politics, very close to McKinley. In fact Plunkett was largely reponsible for financing his monument following McK's assasination.

[Thomas MacWood]

Wayne, you are right in what you said about the Gardner family of Boston and Flynn's wife's connection. The Gardners trace their American roots back to the Mayflower. They are, however, obviously a very large family through those generations albeit extremely socially and politically prominenent. Believe me, I do know, and I don't need newspaper and magazine articles to inform me of that!

TE
You and Wayne went a bit beyond claiming Lillian Gardner was decedant of the Mayflower.

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba,

1)  I didn't start this thread.  Tom MacWood did.

2)  I can't speak for Tom MacWood, but I am intellectually curious about William Flynn's influences, for a number of reasons.   I assume the same is true for TM.   As for academic research, I haven't done any on Flynn specifically as of yet, but have learned a thing or two about him in my research on related topics.   

3)  Wayne and Tom Paul do not own the topic of William Flynn.  I have been hoping for years that they would produce something that would provide us with some accurate and useful information on the guy, but now it seems that this will never happen.   What do you expect, a complete lock-down on all things Philadelphia and/or Flynn?   Wayne and Tom admit that their "book" will never truly be published or available to critics, so isnt it time we all move on without them?

4)  Your third-hand gossip about what you erroniously think someone thinks about the initial version of Merion East has nothing to do with William Flynn.  Nor do your erroneous conclusions about who was involved in the design (and to what extent) of the initial version of Merion East.   Nor do Wayne's endless insults directed at me.  Let it go.

5)  I never denied that Flynn's Merion experience was formative.  I don't doubt it was.  But no one has offered anything about how it was formative.   You only seem interested in yelling at us and accusing us of some sort of ill-defined conspiracy.   You haven't offered anything that clarifies or specifies what those influences might have been.   

Tom Paul,

It really is a shame it's come to that, isn't it?

I'm not sure I'd ever have the gall to attack someone trying to research and discover and report the history of their own club, but it seems that it's open season here and that's to our collective detriment.

In an age of tabloid journalism, and "truths at all cost" and "nothing but the facts", it seems commons sense, common courtesy, and just simple respect for one's private life and personal associations has gone out the window, and most of us don't even blink, much less be outraged.

I think it was Kurt Vonnegut who said in reaction to some of the hypocritically false idealism of the 60s, "screw love...how about just some simple common courtesy and respect!

Talk about gall.   Your post above exemplifies gall.  What common courtesy and respect have you shown my work, my interests, my motivations?   What common courtesy and respect have you shown Tom MacWood here in this very thread?   What common courtesy and respect have TEPaul or Wayne ever shown anyone who disagreed with them?    Your self-righteousness is pure hypocracy.

It is outrageous and insulting for you to claim that Tom MacWood is not truly intellectually curious about these topics.   It is outrageous and insulting for you to claim that I am not truly intellectually curious about these topics.   It is the exact same garbage you pulled on me with my essay. 

[TEPaul]

"It is outrageous and insulting for you to claim that Tom MacWood is not truly intellectually curious about these topics.   It is outrageous and insulting for you to claim that I am not truly intellectually curious about these topics.   It is the exact same garbage you pulled on me with my essay. 
 
 
 
That is total fabrication. I have never claimed that David Moriarty and Tom MacWood are not intellectually curious. If I have show me where. Obviously that's not possible to do. What I have said is it is these kinds of statements are attributed to people who never remotely said them. This is a pattern that indicates a negative and unproductive agenda on here on the part of both of these people.

[Dan Herrmann]

David - you're just coming across in your writing as a frustrated bully.  I really think you need to write your ideas, wait a day, read them, and post if you feel they're thoughtful, unemotional, and professional.   

Put it this way - would you want a client or employer to read some of this stuff?

(Please take this the way it's meant - as brotherly advice, not scolding.)

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
Getting to the truth is never a negative or unproductive agenda.

Speaking of which, other than having the same last name, what led you to claim Lillian Gardner was one of the wealthy Gardners of Boston?

Adam Messex made an excellent post when he suggested clues about Flynn's early influences may be found at Heartwellville. The first course of a golf architect is often times one of his most important, on several levels. Examples are Colt/Rye, Mackenzie/Alwoodley, Tillinghast/Shawnee, Fowler/Walton Heath, Ross/Oakley, Maxwell/Dornick Hills, etc.

There are two issues with Kilkare. 1. The course is long gone, although aerials exist and descriptions of the nine holes survive, 2. and most important, there is confusion about who did what and when. Did Flynn in fact design the golf course.

TE
What evidence is there that Flynn designed Kilkare?

[TEPaul]

"TE
Getting to the truth is never a negative or unproductive agenda."

Mr. MacWood:

Of course it isn't negative or unproductive, and that is precisely what we have always tried to do. To date, with the architectural histories of some of these clubs you seem to have taken an interest in (particularly Merion and Myopia) we just don't feel the truth is something you're considering properly. You seem to assume that those clubs (and perhaps others) have gotten their histories all wrong---eg you've gone on and on for about five years now with this thing you call "legends". You constantly just state on here that these histories are wrong and historically inaccurate. The point is they just aren't no matter how many times you drone on on this website that they are. You sort of indirectly seem to have produced some evidence of H.H. Barker which both you and David Moriarty have clearly exaggerated far out of proportion. The fact is he just was not involved in the design of Merion East no matter how much or how often you drone on to the contrary.

With Macdonald and Whigam the both of you have put words in our mouths about minimizing Macdonald/Whigam. We've never done anything of the kind and either has Merion. They gave them plenty of credit for their involvment. However, they did not give them credit for routing and designing the course as you and Moriarty seem to be doing simply because Macdonald/Whigam just did not do that.

With Myopia it seems to be the same technique and modus operandi with you. You IMPLY some evidence that Campbell had something to do with the original nine holes of Myopia (a nine I doubt you even have a modicum of familiarity with) but you refuse to produce anything. The Myopia record of who designed the original nine holes comes directly from the club's administrative record and it explains who designed the original nines holes and it wasn't Campbell, it was three members of the club.

So, yes, I'm interested in the truth but unfortunately it seems to be something you choose to deny at all costs and perhaps to promote your unsupported notions. These clubs have no interest in listening to you, Tom MacWood, unless and until you produce something more credible than your own opinions. This is something we've been telling you for years but you seem to be content to just dismiss it constantly and drone on and on promoting your fanciful notions that seem to be always underscored by your belief that you are some expert researcher. I just don't think anyone agrees with that any longer except perhaps David Moriarty, but I have yet to see a club who's interested in even discussing anything about their history with him.

Probably his first order of business if he or you are truly curious about the truth of the histories of these clubs is to ask yourselves why that is because, to date, your contention that they are ALL just out to protect their "legends" and to promote historic inaccruacies about themselves is just not coming close to cutting it.

"Speaking of which, other than having the same last name, what led you to claim Lillian Gardner was one of the wealthy Gardners of Boston?"

Because I've known the history of that family for over fifty years and they are an original Boston family that've enjoyed wealth and power over the generations. They are a Mayflower family (or whatever they call that society). Flynn's wife, as well as his daughter belonged that society and I'm pretty confident one does not fudge their family's history with that society as that is basically what they are interested in and what they do. It's pretty much their reason for being. But perhaps you and your newspaper articles think you know better.

I think not. 

[DMoriarty]

"It is outrageous and insulting for you to claim that Tom MacWood is not truly intellectually curious about these topics.   It is outrageous and insulting for you to claim that I am not truly intellectually curious about these topics.   It is the exact same garbage you pulled on me with my essay. 
 
 
 
That is total fabrication. I have never claimed that David Moriarty and Tom MacWood are not intellectually curious. If I have show me where. Obviously that's not possible to do. What I have said is it is these kinds of statements are attributed to people who never remotely said them. This is a pattern that indicates a negative and unproductive agenda on here on the part of both of these people.

"It is outrageous and insulting for you to claim that Tom MacWood is not truly intellectually curious about these topics.   It is outrageous and insulting for you to claim that I am not truly intellectually curious about these topics.   It is the exact same garbage you pulled on me with my essay. 
 
 
 
That is total fabrication. I have never claimed that David Moriarty and Tom MacWood are not intellectually curious. If I have show me where. Obviously that's not possible to do. What I have said is it is these kinds of statements are attributed to people who never remotely said them. This is a pattern that indicates a negative and unproductive agenda on here on the part of both of these people.

Tom Paul,   My comment was not directed at you, but at Mike Cirba. 

_______________________________

Dan, it is the next day, and I am quite comfortable with the tone and content of my recent posts.    If you read frustration in my posts, that would be a correct reading.   My motive in all this is pretty simple.  I'd like to research and discuss early American gca without constantly being insulted, attacked, ridiculed, and misrepresented.   I welcome any disagreement so long as it is supported by facts.    I'd also like for people to quit questioning my motives at every turn, whether it be explicitly like Mike Cirba, or implicitly like you do with Tom MacWood above.   

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