William Flynn's influences

[Mike_Cirba]

No mas.

[Joe Bausch]

No mas.

Estimado Mike,

Usted estará oyendo de mi abogado pronto.

Sinceramente,
Roberto Duran.

 

[Mike_Cirba]

Jose,

He tenido suficiente de abogados para diez vidas.

Shakespeare era correcta.

Y por cierto, H. J. Whigham sigue siendo un toady.

Atentamente,
Miguel

[Joe Bausch]

Jose,

He tenido suficiente de abogados para diez vidas.

Shakespeare era correcta.

Y por cierto, H. J. Whigham sigue siendo un toady.

Atentamente,
Miguel

Miguel,

Youro responso kickso butto.

Buttheado
---------------------

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
Lillian Gardner's father was a common laborer. She grew up in the same working class neighborhood of Milton as Flynn. While the story you and Wayne painted about the young man from the other side of the tracks marrying a Boston blueblood is a good one, its not true. Did your info come from Flynn's daughter or did you just figure a Gardner is a Gardner?

[Mike_Cirba]

Traducción; William Flynn fue blanco de basura. 

O eso, o Sra Gardner fue slumming.

Así termina hoy la lección en el campo de golf arquitectura.


Soy sólo una broma chicos ... en serio ... Estoy tan fuera de aquí!    

[TEPaul]

"TE
Lillian Gardner's father was a common laborer. She grew up in the same working class neighborhood of Milton as Flynn."

Mr. MacWood:

As per usual, don't just say it, support it, prove it. Why would anyone take your word for something like that if you'e not willing to support it with something? Support it with something, Mr. MacWood! Support your research. Support it with more than your notion!

[TEPaul]

"Tom Paul,   My comment was not directed at you, but at Mike Cirba."

So what, David Moriarty? I don't care who it's directed at; my comments are directed at you no matter who you directed your comments at. The point is, your remarks on here are almost completely fabrications and anyone on here should have the right and perhaps even the responsibility to comment on their inaccuracy. 

[TEPaul]

"Dan, it is the next day, and I am quite comfortable with the tone and content of my recent posts.    If you read frustration in my posts, that would be a correct reading.   My motive in all this is pretty simple.  I'd like to research and discuss early American gca without constantly being insulted, attacked, ridiculed, and misrepresented.   I welcome any disagreement so long as it is supported by facts.    I'd also like for people to quit questioning my motives at every turn, whether it be explicitly like Mike Cirba, or implicitly like you do with Tom MacWood above."


Get used to it David Moriarty! Your tone, content and your motives will always be questioned on here, particularly if and when you produce the garbage on here you have for quite some time now.   
 
 
 
 

[Thomas MacWood]

TE
You've been researching Flynn for 7 or 8 years and you're demanding I supply you with the most basic information on his wife's family that anyone with internet access can find?

I re-read the newspaper report on the invitational event at Heartwellville in 1917, and found something I missed the first few times:

"Two of the Boston district experts, Michael J. Brady of the Oakley CC and Louis Teller of TCC, Brookline, have received invitations to compete from Alex Findlay, who is in charge of running the event."

What evidence is there that Flynn designed Kilkare?

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

No one is calling anyone white trash or accusing anyone of slumming, except of course you.   I agree that Miss Gardner has nothing to do with golf course architecture, which is why it is odd that TEPaul and Wayne ever injected it into the conversation and apparently published their romantacized legend without so much as bothering to do a simple fact check.

Speaking of Shakespeare . . .  an ass in any other language is still an ass. 

________________________________

Mr. MacWood:

As per usual, don't just say it, support it, prove it. Why would anyone take your word for something like that if you'e not willing to support it with something? Support it with something, Mr. MacWood! Support your research. Support it with more than your notion!

Tom, do you find any irony at all in this last post?  You and Wayne constantly feed off of unsupported claims, and cry foul whenever anyone even attempts to find out if they are legitimate.  (See your comments about my essay, or the business about Mrs. Flynn, for example.)

Yet you demand MacWood hand over his research for you, in order to prove that you were wrong about something that you never had any support for in the first place?   You guys are the ones who have been claiming the Mrs. Flynn and her daughter are Mayflower blood.  Where is your proof?  You just cannot make something up, then demand that others prove you wrong.   You've got to start with support.  Without the facts to back up what you say, your words are empty.
 
It is easy enough to figure out.  As experts, you and Wayne should have no trouble.

____________________________

"Tom Paul,   My comment was not directed at you, but at Mike Cirba."

So what, David Moriarty? I don't care who it's directed at; my comments are directed at you no matter who you directed your comments at. The point is, your remarks on here are almost completely fabrications and anyone on here should have the right and perhaps even the responsibility to comment on their inaccuracy. 

Uhhhhh, Tom . . .  You misunderstood my post, and I was just trying to set the record straight.   And this is how you react?     Bizarre.  Are you drunk, or what?   You are behaving completely irrationally.  More so than usual.

___________________________________

"Dan, it is the next day, and I am quite comfortable with the tone and content of my recent posts.    If you read frustration in my posts, that would be a correct reading.   My motive in all this is pretty simple.  I'd like to research and discuss early American gca without constantly being insulted, attacked, ridiculed, and misrepresented.   I welcome any disagreement so long as it is supported by facts.    I'd also like for people to quit questioning my motives at every turn, whether it be explicitly like Mike Cirba, or implicitly like you do with Tom MacWood above."


Get used to it David Moriarty! Your tone, content and your motives will always be questioned on here, particularly if and when you produce the garbage on here you have for quite some time now.   

If anyone wonders what has happened to this website, they need go no further than this quote.  I ask for the base minimum of decency and decorum on here, and TEPaul cannot even pretend he is willing to go that far. 

This is nothing but a witch hunt.   TEPaul and Wayne Morrison think they ought to be able to control history of their favored haunts regardless of the facts, and they will do anything they can to disparage and discourage those actually interested in the truth.  What I cannot figure out is why it is so important for these guys to try to distort the history of these great clubs.  I mean who really cares?  These are still great courses.  Get over it guys.

I have produced no garbage.   Nor will I. 

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike/David
I would disagree that Lillian Gardner has nothing to do with golf architecture. You can not seperate the personal life of a golf architect from their career. Events in their personal life are often intertwinded with their golf architecture career. You were trying to track down as many Hugh Wilsons as you could find, all over the globe, including Argentina, in attempt to find one of them making a trip to the UK in 1910.

In Flynn's case Wayne & TE claim that Flynn graduated from HS in 1909 and then married the wealthy Miss Gardner that summer. They then have the couple moving to Hartwellville, Vt. It was there, they claim, at the age of 19, Flynn designed his first golf course, Kilkare, for the very wealthy WB Plunkett, and his career was off and running.

Throughout his design career Flynn was quite successful in building relationships with extremely wealthy men, perhaps TE & Wayne believed his marriage was the first example of that skill. Unfortunately none of it was true.

[Mike_Cirba]

David? Un asno? Touche, tal vez?

Eso es todo ... voy al telémetro hilo donde las personas son agradables los unos a los otros.

Y, en cualquier idioma, Hugh Wilson diseñado Merion. Está todo en blanco y negro en las actas y tal vez algún día usted darse cuenta de que la gente está diciendo la verdad.

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike
Who did what at Merion is about as clear as TE & Wayne's account of Flynn's early career.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom, dejar ir. Sólo por el hecho de que no le gusta la respuesta no quiere decir que no es la correcta.

No tenemos asuntos más importantes para discutir que este Día de la Marmota pesadilla?

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom - why not research the most influential architect of the last 50 years - Pete Dye.  You can actually call his office and get first hand information.  You may find much more success and happiness in researching such a great architect of our time.

Then, in 2100, researchers will consider you the seminal authority and nobody will have any questions around Mr. Dye.  We'll know who his dad was, what his dad did.  We'll have all his United Airlines boarding passes and even hotel stays recorded.  It'll be MacWood/Moriarty bliss.

[Thomas MacWood]

Mike
When I started this thread I had no idea what we would learn. I have done quite a bit of research on Flynn, but I knew next to nothing about his early life, beyond the sketchy outline Wayne & TE had come up with. I will admit I've always been a bit skeptical about the Hartwellville story. I don't think there are too many, beyond a very small group in Philadelphia, that doubt I'm honestly interested in learning more about Flynn background and possible influences (see my post from 2001). Who objects to trying to find the truth?

After starting this thread, unfortunately I got nothing but a red herring from Wayne about Merion, and nothing at all from TE. 0 for 2 from the two residing Flynn experts. That response made me even more curious, and in the last few days I've dug through old magazines and Boston newspapers, and found quite a bit on my own. That information, along with the information I already knew about early Boston golf architecture, presented a pretty clear picture to me. That is when I made the post with the five points. Most of that information was gathered since I started this thread.

Hopefully by the end of this thread we will have a better picture of Flynn's early career, his influences, and perhaps it may shed some further light on early Merion. A topic I know is near and dear to you.

[Thomas MacWood]

Tom - why not research the most influential architect of the last 50 years - Pete Dye.  You can actually call his office and get first hand information.  You may find much more success and happiness in researching such a great architect of our time.

Then, in 2100, researchers will consider you the seminal authority and nobody will have any questions around Mr. Dye.  We'll know who his dad was, what his dad did.  We'll have all his United Airlines boarding passes and even hotel stays recorded.  It'll be MacWood/Moriarty bliss.

Dan
I don't understand why you are protesting. You have no interest in finding the truth about Flynn? If you have no interest in Flynn, why are you on this thread?

[Mike_Cirba]

Tomas,

A continuación, voy a bajar en esta parada, gracias.

Haz que tu viaje sea breve.

Miguel

[Dan Herrmann]

Tom - it's like this - You're after the truth, which is fantastic.   But there are many ways to accomplish a goal.  Perhaps I'm unfairly lumping David with you, and for that, I'm sorry.  But the abrasive and agressive tone set by David has really been insulting to the gentlemen that frequent this board.

Disagreement is fine and often leads to a greater understanding.  But it's how it's done that is what folks remember.  I have no vested interest here other than trying to act to try to return civility to what is probably the most civil bulletin board on the internet outside of discussions on things like scrapbooking and quilting.

[Thomas MacWood]

Dan
I don't disagree with your sentiment, but still I don't understand your efforts to either end this thread or take it in another direction. I also don't recall you objecting when TE has been extremely abusive in the past or when Wayne and Mike have been equally abrasive. There has been plenty of bad acting on both sides.

[DMoriarty]

Tom - it's like this - You're after the truth, which is fantastic.   But there are many ways to accomplish a goal.  Perhaps I'm unfairly lumping David with you, and for that, I'm sorry.  But the abrasive and agressive tone set by David has really been insulting to the gentlemen that frequent this board.

Disagreement is fine and often leads to a greater understanding.  But it's how it's done that is what folks remember.  I have no vested interest here other than trying to act to try to return civility to what is probably the most civil bulletin board on the internet outside of discussions on things like scrapbooking and quilting.

Dan,  I agree that the tone here is abysmal, and I too would love to return to the tone of civility. That is what I intended when I came back.  But if civility means that I am not allowed discuss my research and ideas without being constantly mocked, maligned, and attacked without basis, then no thanks.   

I am curious though, as to how exactly I have set the tone here.  Since even before my essay was posted, I have been attacked, ridiculed, called names, and had my positions and motives questioned and misrepresented endlessly.   Yet you only seem to notice when I hit back.  Why is that?   

Why is it that Wayne can call us names and mock us and insult us, and you say nothing. 

Where is your scorn when Mike Cirba was (and is) spreading false and malicious gossip about our motivations? 

And how about TEPaul?  In my post above I plead for peace and civility . . .

"I'd like to research and discuss early American gca without constantly being insulted, attacked, ridiculed, and misrepresented.   I welcome any disagreement so long as it is supported by facts.    I'd also like for people to quit questioning my motives at every turn, whether it be explicitly like Mike Cirba, or implicitly like you do with Tom MacWood above."

. . . and what is Tom Paul's response?   To reaffirm his vendetta . . .

Get used to it David Moriarty! Your tone, content and your motives will always be questioned on here, particularly if and when you produce the garbage on here you have for quite some time now.   

Or above where misunderstands my post, I clarify, and he responds . . . .

"Tom Paul,   My comment was not directed at you, but at Mike Cirba."

So what, David Moriarty? I don't care who it's directed at; my comments are directed at you no matter who you directed your comments at. The point is, your remarks on here are almost completely fabrications and anyone on here should have the right and perhaps even the responsibility to comment on their inaccuracy.

Hardly sounds like an environment conducive to civil conversation.  Yet this is the environment that they insist upon.  They want to be able to ridicule others without offering support, yet in return we are not allowed to discuss their work even when our comments are totally supported by the record?   

I've repeatedly stated my desire for this to stop.  I've repeatedly suggested how it can and should stop.   I remain willing for it to stop immediately.    But in the mean time I will continue to set the record strait and, since they will not do so, to establish a baseline for comparison for my work.

If they do not want to discuss Flynn, Merion, or anything else, no one is forcing them.   Why do you think you or they should be able to dictate the topics on this board?

[TEPaul]

"This is nothing but a witch hunt.   TEPaul and Wayne Morrison think they ought to be able to control history of their favored haunts regardless of the facts, and they will do anything they can to disparage and discourage those actually interested in the truth.  What I cannot figure out is why it is so important for these guys to try to distort the history of these great clubs.  I mean who really cares?"

No witch hunt at all. If you think this is all about you, which apparently you do and always have, let me disabuse you of that notion. We're just interested in the accuracy of the architectural histories of some of these clubs and courses and when we see someone completely distorting the accurate history of a club like Merion we say so. It's about as simple as that. We do that because we care about those clubs and their accurate history.

For me the same is true for Myopia. When I see someone make a claim on here with zero support and nothing but his opinion that Willie Campbell designed the original nine holes of Myopia which is completely in contradiction to the club's own contemporaneous administrative record I say he is wrong. That's about the size of it because he is wrong.

[Mike_Cirba]

Aaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrggggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Please stop.

[Kirk Gill]

To any who seem to jump immediately to acrimony rather than make any attempt at all to get along I will say to you the same thing that I say to my kids - you can't control your brother, you can only control yourself. No one else is responsible for what you do. No one can MAKE you act like a jerk. You do that on your own. One of the weakest excuses I get from my children when they misbehave is when they say "He MADE me." I'm not buying it.

To Mike Cirba: Mike, estoy utilizando un programa de la traducción así que éste puede no salir a la derecha. Me disculpo. Whigham no era un toady. Él puede haber estado muy cercano a Macdonald, pero he leído bastante de su propio trabajo para saber que él era un hombre muy elegante y capaz en el su derecho propio. Sé que usted está haciendo una broma, pero dado cómo la gente enojada parece conseguir sobre cosas últimamente, yo sentía como era apropiado discrepar tranquilamente con usted.

Tom M. - I understand that you want to learn as much about a person as possible, but I'm going to state my own opinion that if you are going about trying to establish the major influences on William Flynn's career as a golf course architect, the economic circumstances of his wife can't be too high on the list. God bless you for trying to get to the truth, but it's hard for me to see where you would go with this. Do people's economic circumstances growing up and throughout their life affect their career and their work? Of course. But if we can't even get to the point where we can pin down some of his specific golf influences, how can the more tangential issues be established and quantified?

Heartwellville may have been his first course. Perhaps it wasn't. You say that it's now called Kilkare, so it is NOT NLE, yes? Have you played Kilkare? Has it been changed significantly since it was built? You seem to be suggesting that Flynn didn't design that course. Who did?