[John Moore II]

Bill--I agree with most everything you said about the par 3's. My only beef was that, take away the setting, are the holes really that good? 15 I thought was almost boring, and the others have a great setting, but not much substance such as shaping shots and such. 7 has the most strategy of any. The other two are just straight downhill shots. But like I said before, the setting alone makes up for the lesser parts with design and strategy. A very good, but not great set. I, personally, thought the par 5's were the strongest part of the course. That set, I felt, was very nearly a great set (even #11 Kalen )

[Richard Boult]

posted at delicious.com/golfclubatlas

[Matt_Ward]

Be curious to know if anyone on the site has been to Sand Hollow thus far?

The SLC area does have a few courses of note but the St. George area should be more dominating because of the potential to play for much of the year.

[Kalen Braley]

I would agree that the 3's and 5's are the strength of the course, even though I really don't like 11.   

I'm hoping to get down to Sand Hollow with the family later this fall and have a look at it.  matt does make a good point that there is likely more interesting and contrasting terrain in that part of the state to build some stunner courses.

But in defense of the Salt Lake area.  It has a really really good lineup of publics that are very affordable and rarely crowded...so it makes for an ideal spot to get in some good golf that is easy on the wallet!

[John Moore II]

Kalen--Would you like 11 better without the pond?   I would assume that the pond is there and on 12 to filter commercial/homesite run-off prior to it going directly into the river, but I could be wrong. And I would think they can't pump water directly from the river for irrigation either.

[Matt_Ward]

Have to say in total agreement with what Kalen mentioned -- the affordability aspect of Utah public golf is quite impressive -- the state doesn't have the depth of quality public courses like neighbor Colorado but it's ability to keep the masses involved without overdosing on the $100+ green fees will be a huge asset in keeping and attracting new players.

Still, the St. George area has the most promise because of the year-round options for golf and the cheaper available land for golf development.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen--Would you like 11 better without the pond?   I would assume that the pond is there and on 12 to filter commercial/homesite run-off prior to it going directly into the river, but I could be wrong. And I would think they can't pump water directly from the river for irrigation either.

JKM,

The pond doesn't bother me as much, although I can say I'm not a big fan of it.  Its the tight neck of the layup spot where you have OB left and OB right.  Its not a brutally difficult shot, but as it usually plays into the prevailing wind, its pretty easy to go OB there.

I do like the green on that hole, but thats about the extent of it.

The only hole I really don't like is the 12th. Its just a brutally difficult hole that requires a precise tee shot and approach.  Then throw in the fact that its out of character with the rest of the course and I think it needs a do-over.

[John Moore II]

Kalen--I do think 12 is a bit out of character, but not terribly so, certainly not any more out of charater than the funky routing on 7. I think 12 is just a plainly hard hole that requires a player to hit two good shots in order to make par. Not the best hole out there, but not overly horrible.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen--I do think 12 is a bit out of character, but not terribly so, certainly not any more out of charater than the funky routing on 7. I think 12 is just a plainly hard hole that requires a player to hit two good shots in order to make par. Not the best hole out there, but not overly horrible.

JKM,

And I would agree, its not a horrible hole.  But a hole doesn't need to be horrible to merit a redo right?  All I ask is for something that fits in a little better and has a little more mercy on us guys like me who have been struggling to break 90 recently!!   

I think 7 "fits in"...its just the routing that sucks.

[John Moore II]

Kalen-I think they could actually get by with just adding some fairway, or even playable area, to the right of the fairway currently. Pretty much down the whole right side. That would give more width and allow for different stuff from the tee. Plus, it would allow for a better angle into the green, being that the green is angled same as a Redan. And certainly take away the rocks from around the pond. (I'm not crazy right? That pond was bordered by rocks??) I really enjoyed TP, I may say its one of the 10 best I have played.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen-I think they could actually get by with just adding some fairway, or even playable area, to the right of the fairway currently. Pretty much down the whole right side. That would give more width and allow for different stuff from the tee. Plus, it would allow for a better angle into the green, being that the green is angled same as a Redan. And certainly take away the rocks from around the pond. (I'm not crazy right? That pond was bordered by rocks??) I really enjoyed TP, I may say its one of the 10 best I have played.

Right,

12 green has the pond with rock border on the left, and then falls away on the right into the marsh/hazard that is usually filled with reeds/willows.

[Matt_Ward]

Kalen:

Might make for an interesting disucssion to compare the qualities of TP versus South Mountain.

[John Moore II]

Kalen-I think they could actually get by with just adding some fairway, or even playable area, to the right of the fairway currently. Pretty much down the whole right side. That would give more width and allow for different stuff from the tee. Plus, it would allow for a better angle into the green, being that the green is angled same as a Redan. And certainly take away the rocks from around the pond. (I'm not crazy right? That pond was bordered by rocks??) I really enjoyed TP, I may say its one of the 10 best I have played.

Right,

12 green has the pond with rock border on the left, and then falls away on the right into the marsh/hazard that is usually filled with reeds/willows.

Thats what I was thinking. Get rid of the rocks and build the hole in a bit to the right and its now a very good risk/reward Cape hole.

[Kalen Braley]

Matt,

I think so too.  I've played both now several times and came probably come up with a few talking points on them.  Let me see what I can come up with.

John,

I have a better visual now.  Shift the entire hole to the right and give both the tee shot and approach a little more space to operate in.  That could work.

[John Moore II]

Kalen--If given the chance, I would most likely make those changes on 12 and probably shrink the bunker on 3, which you and I talked about while playing. With those changes, the course may be better than it is currently.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen--If given the chance, I would most likely make those changes on 12 and probably shrink the bunker on 3, which you and I talked about while playing. With those changes, the course may be better than it is currently.

Agreed John,

That and give all the bunkers a whispy ragged looking hairpiece..its all the rage these days!! 

[John Moore II]

Actually I would leave the grass as is, you know many course do just fine with regular grass around the bunkers   I would however, change the mowing patterns to have the fairway side of the bunkers actually be mown to fairway height, that would be interesting.

[Kalen Braley]

John,

Did you feel it was a good value for what you got as compared to what you paid in green fees?

And to boot, TP is by far and away the most expensive course in the area..most other are had for $25-35

[JWinick]

I work for a company headquartered in Utah and I am struck by how passionated people from Utah are about the game of golf.  Virtually everyone in our home office plays.   On a course near the airport, I always see people playing even in the middle of winter.

It seems like the Utah market has great affordable golf courses, but lacks high-end courses like Thanksgiving Point.   I would suspect that with the strong growth in the area (Utah has arguably the best economy in the country) we can expect some great new golf courses. 

When are the big name designers going to do projects in this exciting market?   

[John Moore II]

John,

Did you feel it was a good value for what you got as compared to what you paid in green fees?

And to boot, TP is by far and away the most expensive course in the area..most other are had for $25-35

Kalen-not the best question to ask me, I did not have to pay any green fees. But at $65, which I think was the going rate, to me, it would have been a great value, compared to what customers pay here in Pinehurst. TP, IMO, is better than all but 4 or 5 courses in the Pinehurst/Sandhills area. I find the difference in green fees between NC and Utah/Idaho to be very striking. The courses I played in Idaho could not be played for less then $60 here, and TP could not be played for less than $125 I think. So, yes, overall, I think TP offers exceptional value for the price you pay, at least in the context of what is paid for golf in other areas of the country.

[Kalen Braley]

Jwick,

We need to go have a round, I live and work here in Utah myself.  The course at the airport is called WingPointe and is loads of fun especially when the wind is up and the ground is cold/firm.   

I'm jealous that you work with a bunch of golf nuts.  My experience has been the opposite..   

You are exactly right that Utah does have really really good affordable public golf.  Nothing that fits in the top 100 kind of categories, but plenty that would qualify for Best 50 under $50 type ratings.

I usually play TP in the wintertime as the ball bounces and runs all over the place.  And its usually pretty empty and green fees are cheap.  Staying warm isn't a problem with a beanie cap, a couple of layers and some warm hot chocolate.   

[JWinick]

Absolutely.  Joel Zimmerman said you were a great guy.   I never heard of people playing in the middle of winter.   I'm not greenskeeper, but how can that be?   Doesn't it ruin the greens?

Jwick,

We need to go have a round, I live and work here in Utah myself.  The course at the airport is called WingPointe and is loads of fun especially when the wind is up and the ground is cold/firm.   

I'm jealous that you work with a bunch of golf nuts.  My experience has been the opposite..   

You are exactly right that Utah does have really really good affordable public golf.  Nothing that fits in the top 100 kind of categories, but plenty that would qualify for Best 50 under $50 type ratings.

I usually play TP in the wintertime as the ball bounces and runs all over the place.  And its usually pretty empty and green fees are cheap.  Staying warm isn't a problem with a beanie cap, a couple of layers and some warm hot chocolate.   

[John Moore II]

JW--As long as the temperature gets above freezing the grass will be fine, and actually if its sunny out, the air doesn't have to get above freezing, just that the ground is above freezing.

[Kalen Braley]

Jwick and John,

I've played plenty of golf in sub freezing temps both here and in Spokane, WA.  The only difference between here and there is in Spokane they make you play on temp greens.  Here in Utah, you can play the course as normal.

I'm usually good up till about 20 degrees F.  When it gets colder than that its just not fun anymore, especially if there is any kind of wind blowing.

The courses all seem to recover just fine from it, probably because it turns brown and goes dormant.  I did a hole by hole course review on TP during the winter time 2 winters ago.  I should dig it up and bump it to the front page.

[John Moore II]

Golf when the temps are in the 20's? Sounds like my kind of golf. I assume if there is snow on the course they do not allow play?? Or am I wrong?

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