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John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2008, 06:19:01 PM »
I think all of you guys have some sort of weird psychological issue with trees.

I've played the hole, of course ... we've consulted there for years.  The tree being so close to the green made for some awkward recovery shots from the right, but I never really thought it was either the making of the hole, or the ruination of it.  And I have never thought the hole was intended to be Redan-like, though the green does slope right-to-left as well as back-to-front, and it sloped that way even more in the old days. 

Those of you who would have recommended the tree be cut down would have been laughed at by the members, with good cause.  It was a big, beautiful, old tree and it may well have been there in much smaller form when Donald Ross laid out the course.  (I've never seen a picture so I could say one way or another for sure; but I know that the big tree on the fifth at Crystal Downs was there when MacKenzie designed the hole.)

But, now that's it's gone, it's pretty much impossible to replace.  That's the only bad thing about having a tree which comes into play ... it would be 50 years before a new tree could replace what was there, and most members don't want to wait that long, so there is a knee-jerk reaction for a new bunker or something to replace the tree.
That is indeed the problem with trees that come into play.....they won't be there forever.  I think the hole will be very good without the tree, but it won't be as memorable or as fun.

Here's a rough aerial image from 1935.  The tee is out of sight at the bottom of the picture.  Looks like there was a pretty substantial dark mass between the green and the bunker on the right back then.


Not sure if this is an approved use for the old aerials, so I'll limit it to just this one.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2008, 06:35:37 PM »
And I have never thought the hole was intended to be Redan-like, though the green does slope right-to-left as well as back-to-front, and it sloped that way even more in the old days. 


But Tom, that's just about the textbook description of a Redan, right?  It looks like Ross found a natural slope that worked and had the green follow that slope.

It might not be a Redan but it is certainly Redan-like.   You don't have to hit a draw (as long as you are left of the ridge that someone mentioned above).

Of course I'm just talking off the top of my head, having never seen the hole in person!


john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2008, 06:47:15 PM »
Bill,

The image on my old aerial is better and my reproduction has slightly better contrast and it is a little darker.

If you squint, or did not know the bunker was there, you can, perhaps, make out the reflection of the sand, and the supposed reflection (if you are a doubter) is in the proper position relative to the canopy.  That is the direction anyone would have exited the bunker.

But the image at the website is GREAT, almost as good as the inter negative that I have.   Makes me wonder though, about someone doing all this recent work, wonderful stuff,  but geez, to pull out all those old negatives, etc.   The nitrates were disappearing fast so maybe it was just a great effort.   It cost me probably $200-$300 or more in the 1990s to wade through negatives,  make positives, enlargements...all through letters and phone calls   Now it is free, or was rolled into my utility bill (??) by April 2008.  This is my walking through 10 miles of snow to go to school.

TVA makes aerials of rivers about every 10 years.   Glad they haven't rolled those into the 'system'.   So I have some from 1950s,  1960s etc.   You can see the grass overtake bunkers in the 1950s, whose form was fortunately never destroyed, only to be returned to sand by  Bruce Hepner & Will Smith, Doak, etc. at Renaissance.


John

john_stiles

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2008, 06:54:55 PM »
Bill,

The slope of the green is back to front,   so a shot played short, bouncing up, can be helped and slowed down by the slope.

Have seen the original Redan, and a few Macdonalds/Raynor, and, to me, the continous back to front slope, across the entire green,  really lessens the feel of a Redan.

John

JWinick

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2008, 06:57:38 PM »
I played and loved Holston Hills, rating it higher than any other Ross course I've played.  Fortunately, I did not get the chance to see the tree infringe upon a recovery shot.   But, I suspect the hole will play better now.   The character of Holston Hills is expansive, so this one tree removal will not harm the course.   

However, we do sometimes get a little too caught up in removing every tree we can find.  I wouldn't have knocked it down, but now, so be it.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #30 on: August 04, 2008, 07:00:49 PM »
Bill,

The slope of the green is back to front,   so a shot played short, bouncing up, can be helped and slowed down by the slope.

Have seen the original Redan, and a few Macdonalds/Raynor, and, to me, the continous back to front slope, across the entire green,  really lessens the feel of a Redan.

John

Whoops, a reading comprehension faux pas on my part, I thought Tom Doak said front to back when he actually said back to front.

Strike everything I've ever said about pretty much everything. I am so embarrassed.   :P

Ian Larson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #31 on: August 04, 2008, 07:34:23 PM »
The tree was great. But I think the tree between the green and the bunker was kinda funky, one of them had to go. And I think my vote would have gone to get rid of the bunker and show off the tree as long as it was always kept pruned properly. But in this case with the tree down Id think its time to renovate the area where the tree stood so it flows from the bunker to the green. Any insight to the supe's reaction? That extra sunlight will only do good for the turf.

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2008, 07:48:54 PM »
To have a tree between the bunker and the green goes against what Ross said about his own work. Something is amiss if there is one there in his drawings.
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2008, 09:38:40 PM »
Here's the (allegedly)  responsive post I promised Matt Varney in a private message.

First, a public apology to Matt, and anyone else, for coming off like a jerk and seeming to wish ill for the fine folks of Holston Hills and their otherwise excellent golf course of which I have often heard good things.  I think I have a well-earned reputation for being a polite dissenter on GCA, if not always an informed or intelligent one.  Mea culpa.

HOWEVER, it is not new news to veterans of GCA that my unequivocal, unbending and uncompromising opinion on trees that effect ball flight from the fairway or within 150 yards of a tee box is simple - they should not exist. Never ever.  Not on any golf hole on the planet Earth or any other place in any other galaxy.  Not for any reason.  No exceptions.  Ever.  It is for this reason that I have dubbed these abominations as Stupid Trees.  I capitalize the words in order to make it a proper noun.  A friend of mine who lurks here calls them "bunkers in the sky".

To re-articulate briefly, I believe that it is the architecture ON THE GROUND (basically green complexes and its subset, hole location) that should influence ball flight - not tree branches.  That's just my dogmatic, closeminded opinion.  It's not the most important thing in my life, but this is, after all, a golf architecture discussion group so where else am I going to harangue and carry on about it?

The practical stuff about sunlight and air circulation is a nice plus but my position is completely a matter of taste and opinion - a classic example of what Patrick Mucci calls BIAS (which he always capitalizes).  Any further credibility that might arise from people who actually know what they're talking about is just icing on the cake.

There are 2 examples of Stupid Trees.  The first is the tree in the rough that, due to age, has grown out such that the line from a certain portion of the fairway is now obstructed to some degree.  Winged Foot and Southern Hills come to mind as 2 excellent courses where the original architecture was impaired after X number of years as a result of small trees becoming big trees.  The second example is even worse - it's the tree that is placed intentionally in order to influence the play of the hole from either a fairway or tee box.  The 18th at Pebble Beach is the most well known example of this heinous act of bastardized golf architecture.

So let me respond individually as follows:

John Mayhugh:

I haven't ever played the hole and I absolutely do believe that criticizing a hole or a course without having played it lacks credibility (see the singular exception below).  I mean, how do you know?  In this case, however, I offer the following:  First, I didn't say the architecture on the ground WAS poor (I haven't played it), I said, "IF ..........".  My apologies for inferring that, without the Stupid Tree, the hole lacks architectural merit.  In fact, given the course's lineage, I doubt that's the case and I'm sure that you're assertion that "it's still pretty interesting without the tree" is an understatement.  More importantly, though, when there's a Stupid Tree involved, one needn't play a hole before issuing a blanket condemnation.  In fact, a picture isn't even necessary - just a vague description will do.  They are uniformly such a terrible part of any golf hole where they are permitted to exist, that an assumption of guilt is always warranted and the offending tree should be immediately cut down.  Every single time.

See my apology above for seemingly wishing bad fortune on the membership.  But the loss of a Stupid Tree is, in truth, a gift from the golf gods - a blessing, really.  So I wish the membership all the wisdom going forward that has been displayed by the folks at Oakmont, National and Winged Foot, to name 3 who lost a beloved tree and, suddenly, experienced a true epiphany and saw the vision of golf as it was meant to be.

Matt Varney:

Actually, a flat farm with dynamite green complexes and no trees sounds terrific!  You have to be a hell of an architect to design one of those that's worth playing.  National and TOC come to mind as 2 courses where green complexes are everything and trees are nothing (although National isn't completely flat).

See my apology above for sounding like a jerk.  Actually, the trees in my yard are a pain and I would take them down in a heartbeat if my wife would let me.  So if you could do some kind of tornado dance for me, I would appreciate it.  Also, my apologies for being stubborn, but a hole is NEVER better for having a Stupid Tree.  Always harder, but never better.

Eric Smith:

I'm not wrong.  I'm right.  There's no exception to Oat's Stupid Tree rule.  Never.

Tom Doak:

Of course it's a weird psychological thing, but this is Golf Club Atlas, right?

Besides, I don't despise ALL trees.  I think trees that create problems from any place other than the fairway or a tee box are FINE.  It's just trees that...........well, you know.

Coincidentally, there was a link to Taconic Golf Club on my Stiles & Van Kleek thread that is Gil Hanse's very detailed presentation of his master plan for Taconic's restoration+.  He has the following to say on page 4 of his summary about trees: "......trees are an emotional and somewhat romantic topic, and members seldom view them in an objective or practical manner."

So I'm no worse than any tree hugger or even other minimalists that share my point of view.  Also, I offer as an alternative those green complexes and fairway routings that ALLOW for direct lines of flight but, in reality, demand that a shot be shaped in order to hit the little white ball in the right place.

Sorry I can't see the other side of this one, guys.  but I do hope I was polite about it.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2008, 10:47:48 PM by chipoat »

Bill Brightly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2008, 09:46:39 PM »
What Chip said!

Chip, I am too lazy to search "Who are you guys anyway" so I'll take a guess that you are a low handicap. Am I right?

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2008, 09:48:44 PM »
Now HERE is an example of the quintessential Stupid Tree which, no surprise, is by far my biggest pet peeve in golf architecture.

If that "bunker in the sky" was necessary for the hole to be interesting, then the architecture on the ground needs improvement first.

I'm glad it had to be taken down and I hope the club doesn't have enough tree huggers in the wrong places of influence to cause it to be replaced.

Also, the remaining tree on the right appears to be obstructive to anyone using the front markers.  If so, then it is also a Stupid Tree and it should be removed, as well.

Chip, I agree , but not in the case of Holston Hills, at least that looked to be a fair shot.

NOW THIS IS THREADING A NEEDLE THROUGH THE TREES! The green is behind the pine tree in the middle.

Stamford GC - Stamford, NY (Catskills area)
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2008, 10:40:20 PM »
Alas, the blight of Stupid Trees is even worse than I feared.

As to Holston Hills, I'm afraid that big old thing didn't even look like it was on the bubble.  Besides, when in doubt about this matter, guilt is the only safe assumption.

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2008, 08:33:32 AM »
I haven't ever played the hole and I absolutely do believe that criticizing a hole or a course without having played it lacks credibility (see the singular exception below).  I mean, how do you know?  In this case, however, I offer the following:  First, I didn't say the architecture on the ground WAS poor (I haven't played it), I said, "IF ..........".  My apologies for inferring that, without the Stupid Tree, the hole lacks architectural merit.  In fact, given the course's lineage, I doubt that's the case and I'm sure that you're assertion that "it's still pretty interesting without the tree" is an understatement.  More importantly, though, when there's a Stupid Tree involved, one needn't play a hole before issuing a blanket condemnation.  In fact, a picture isn't even necessary - just a vague description will do.  They are uniformly such a terrible part of any golf hole where they are permitted to exist, that an assumption of guilt is always warranted and the offending tree should be immediately cut down.  Every single time.
Thanks for the additional comments.  Your original response sounded a little mean-spirited and I'm glad that wasn't intended.  I largely agree with your opinions on trees.  In this case, the old oak added a little quirk and character that was memorable.  I wasn't a big fan of the tree the first time I played there, but it grew on me (no pun intended).  Sorry you didn't get a chance to play the hole.  It might have changed your mind.  ;D

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2008, 09:40:34 AM »
Yesterday I woke up to find that the biggest tree on our lot, a massive 90-foot, 50-year old willow that dominated the skyline against a long distance backdrop of woodland hills, had suddenly keeled over. No storm, just some soft ground, and it gave way, luckily down into a hollow where it did no damage, other than tearing out these trench-like gouges in the ground when its root mass came tearing out. The remnant roots of the now-horizontal tree must be 30-feet across, like fractured arms akimbo in the air. My little 16-inch chainsaw is helpless, and it's probably going cost us over $1,000 to remove.

In the last few years I've taken out about 200 trees here and yet I actually liked the way that tree sat out there on its own. Now we lose morning shade. House will be warmer in summer but also heat up earlier in winter. Oh well, another tree down.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2008, 10:20:21 AM by Brad Klein »

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2008, 09:53:34 AM »
Worlds collide!  Brad Klein owns a chain-saw?  Time for the Hillbilly Tour Membership Committee to meet.
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2008, 10:19:05 AM »
Hendren, you obviously haven't been reading Golfweek or seen my stand-up comedy architecture routine; there's evidence everywhere of sawdust, flying blades and a certain writer wrapped in protective gear.

ChipOat

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2008, 11:05:24 AM »
John Mayhugh:

Not a chance!  However, I'm willing to wager (on your say-so as I've never played it) that NOW it's a pretty fine golf hole.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #42 on: August 06, 2008, 11:06:02 AM »
Brad,  that's not true.  I await the delivery of the new phone book and Golfweek with unbridled enthusiasm.   Just to prove it, I was disappointed that you took Judy Rankin to task for asking to see Crissie Norman's wedding ring - girls will be girls.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #43 on: August 06, 2008, 11:52:34 AM »
John Mayhugh:

Not a chance!  However, I'm willing to wager (on your say-so as I've never played it) that NOW it's a pretty fine golf hole.
You'll have to play it and see for yourself.  There is also one other tree on the course that you might not be a fan of, but otherwise I think you would be fine.

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2008, 04:44:56 PM »
  There is also one other tree on the course that you might not be a fan of, but otherwise I think you would be fine.

John,

It's been ten years, but I'll make two guesses:  1) the evergreen inside the dogleg on 2; or 2) the oak left of the fairway off the tee on 17?

Messrs. Bert and I need to get up there to play you and Mr. Stiles.

Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Tim Bert

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2008, 11:01:22 PM »
  There is also one other tree on the course that you might not be a fan of, but otherwise I think you would be fine.

John,

It's been ten years, but I'll make two guesses:  1) the evergreen inside the dogleg on 2; or 2) the oak left of the fairway off the tee on 17?

Messrs. Bert and I need to get up there to play you and Mr. Stiles.

Mike

Yes indeed.  A trip to Knoxville is in order.  I keep hearing more and more great things about Holston.  I've been trying to get Mayhugh to Nashville, but he is all over the map at the moment.

I only wish this fate could have struck a much more local cluster of trees (perhaps those on VLC #4 North) and spared this one that was apparently so well-liked.

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Farewell to a great tree
« Reply #46 on: August 13, 2008, 01:25:13 PM »
  There is also one other tree on the course that you might not be a fan of, but otherwise I think you would be fine.

John,

It's been ten years, but I'll make two guesses:  1) the evergreen inside the dogleg on 2; or 2) the oak left of the fairway off the tee on 17?

Messrs. Bert and I need to get up there to play you and Mr. Stiles.

Mike

Yes indeed.  A trip to Knoxville is in order.  I keep hearing more and more great things about Holston.  I've been trying to get Mayhugh to Nashville, but he is all over the map at the moment.

I only wish this fate could have struck a much more local cluster of trees (perhaps those on VLC #4 North) and spared this one that was apparently so well-liked.
Mike & Tim
I'm ready when you are....except that football season is almost on us.  I'm sure we could work out a Sunday sometime.

The tree on 2 is the one I was referring to.  I think it sets up fine for Tim.

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