Farewell to a great tree

[John Mayhugh]

Damage from a recent storm has forced Holston Hills to take down the large oak tree that guarded the right side of the green on the par 3 fourteenth hole.  The tree had been deteriorating for some time and got to the point where it just was no longer safe to try to keep it up.  In a notice to the members, there was this anecdote: In 1998, Bryon Nelson asked members of Holston Hills "Is that great big oak tree still on no. 14?"  He remembered it from 1945!  That tree was definitely memorable to anyone that has played there. 

Here's how the hole looked before we lost the tree.   The hole plays around 200 yards to a green that slopes severely from front to back.  With the large oak tree on the right, trajectory & line were both very important in order to hit the green.  It was a fun, quirky tee shot.


Here's the green from the right side.


The hole is forever changed.  Still a good hole, but nowhere near as much fun, especially watching people play it for the first time.  I will really miss it.

[Eric Smith]

Wow.  When we played last week after the storm, #14 was closed but the tree was still standing.  I really didn't look too closely as we went past it up to 15 tee and didn't ask anybody in the shop about 14 after we finished.

Man that tree was a huge part of that hole.   

[Lester George]

Will losing that tree provide better sunlight on the green?

Lester

[RJ_Daley]

Is this a case of locals getting used to a quirk that probably grew up after the course was designed by Ross and not intended as part of the design?  Afterall, this is a tree of some 60-70 years old, and grew right next to a hazard of a guarding bunker.  Isn't the bunker the intention to either collect balls struck short and right on a slice and exact penalty enough?  The tree makes the hole one way, a right handed fade.  Without it, a natural drawer is screwed (as it appears on the picture)  200 yards slightly down hill seems like it would be a 4I-3I or hybrid club.  Those are clubs that tend to be drawn by most.

Or, even with the tree did players try some sort of bounding grounder well short of the trouble to skirt the left bunker, and hop past the bunker and tree on the right?  

Obviously,  just impressions from photos, so not too valid of remarks...  

[corey miller]

Doesn't that green slope from back to front? 

I am not a big fan of trees so close to the green but that would have been a difficult one to cut down.  Do the trees on the left prevent people from fading the ball on the hole or are they close enough from the tee where they are not a concern?

[John Kavanaugh]

It looks like a great place to catch some shade while people finish out the hole.  I also like how the tree kept the ground near it firm allowing the ground game option.  A very sad turn of events.

[ChipOat]

Now HERE is an example of the quintessential Stupid Tree which, no surprise, is by far my biggest pet peeve in golf architecture.

If that "bunker in the sky" was necessary for the hole to be interesting, then the architecture on the ground needs improvement first.

I'm glad it had to be taken down and I hope the club doesn't have enough tree huggers in the wrong places of influence to cause it to be replaced.

Also, the remaining tree on the right appears to be obstructive to anyone using the front markers.  If so, then it is also a Stupid Tree and it should be removed, as well.

[Matt Varney]

John,

I live in Knoxville and I heard about the wind damage to all the trees at Holston Hills from the storms a couple week back.  That is a shame that the "Big Oak" tree was lost I heard a lot of other trees were destroyed but, I was not aware of this tree having to come down.  

If Holston Hills is looking to replace this tree, I have a good friend that is based in Knoxville that works with some ultra private golf clubs on this type of thing and he can work with your club to find a large replacement tree at 40-50' that would work well on this hole.  You have to see it to believe it in person when he comes in with a huge custom tree spade and a crane and places a 45' willow oak tree.  

A couple of my friends are members at Holston and they called me the day this happened and said it looked like a war zone when the storm came through.  I need to come out anw take a look for myself so I can see the changes some maybe good and some like the "Big Oak" that has fallen is a big loss it really made that golf hole fun to play.

 

[John Mayhugh]

Lester
The green will now get more afternoon sunlight and probably won't need a fan anymore.  So at least for that reason it is a good thing.

Dick & Corey
There were several different types of tee shots that would work, but each needed to be executed fairly well.  A right-handed player could definitely play a lower-trajectory draw into this green before the loss of the tree.  I really liked trying to bounce my tee shot on and avoid the front left bunker.   A higher trajectory fade over the left trees also worked well, but that's not a shot that I possess unless it's by accident.  And of course, a straight shot on a normal trajectory also worked well, but that's not so easy either.

I believe that the tree was there when Ross designed the hole, but would need to talk to John Stiles to confirm that.

John K
The shade was awesome.  I missed it yesterday.

Chipoat,
Have you ever played the hole??  It's still plenty interesting w/o the tree, but that doesn't make it better.  On the rest of the course at Holston, play is affected by only a couple of trees so having something like this on a single hole didn't hurt the course IMO.  At least you're happy about us losing it, though.  

Matt,
There was quite a bit of other damage, but I don't think the rest of it hurt the course very much (other than the necessary clean-up).  I seriously doubt the club will attempt to replace the oak tree on 14, though.  It's funny how I loved the tree while it was there, but the thought of bringing in a replacement seems a little Trump-like. 

[Matt Varney]

Chip,

I guess you like playing on flat farms with very little appeal?  Holston Hills is a great course and I understand trees being in the line of play but, in some cases a hole is better because of the natural hazards around them like trees.

When I think of Holston Hills this is one of the holes that I remember so well and that tree was always in your mind.  I have made birdie on that hole and also made triple boge because I was right of that Big Oak tree.  Don't be a jerk and say your glad the tree is gone.  That would be like me saying I hope all the trees in your yard come down in a storm.  That would make your home look bad and in this case this golf hole is changed forever.

Holston Hills is a classic Donald Ross designed course and the superintendent Ryan Blair is excellent at maintaining great firm and fast conditioning with gorgeous bunker presentation.

I am sure that some of the trees lost will open up the course to its original design style but, I never like to see a big grand tree like the one that was lost have to come down.

[RJ_Daley]

Matt, or anybody else who might be well versed in Ross course designs...

Can you think of any other hole where Ross specifically designed a bunker hazard with a redundant hazard of a tree or water, etc?  Particularly on a par 3.

[Sean_A]

Just looking at this pic shows me that this hole can become a really wild one now that the tree is gone. 


I have to say I didn't like the look of the bunker stranded behind the tree.  One or the other my friends - never both.  I would be surprised if Ross would have designed for a tree directly between a bunker and the green - but I could be wrong. 

Still, its always a bit of a shame when such a lovely tree comes down.  Heavy sigh.

Ciao

[Eric Smith]

I called Ryan earlier to ask him to post on here when he gets a chance.

If someone were to ask a player who has played HH what was their most memorable hole or holes, in my opinion #14 would be right there at or near the top.  It's just a very charming, park-like setting at that little corner of the property.     

Certainly without the tree it does open up more options to the player. 

So that leads to the question: is that the ultimate goal in golf or more specifically, golf architecture, more options ALL the time?  I draw the ball into that green; granted it's a lower traj shot and executing that shot is a lot of fun.  I guess now it will be fun to play the high draw as well.

Chip posted his opinion and I appreciate it, but imo he's wrong on this tree.   Today we'll talk about it on GCA and then we as players will adapt to the new look and move on.

[David Stamm]

Does anyone know if the tree was there when Ross did the course? If so, I'd have a hard time believing that the bunker was placed there by him.

[RJ_Daley]

In trying to examine the tree further, I will guess that the tree was added by some do-gooder tree hugger greens committee person, very shortly after the course was delivered by Ross in 1933.   I also don't believe that Ross would intentionally build a bunker with a tree between the green and bunker, even a sappling. 

1933 would put the tree in the area of ~ 75 years old if it was planted as a sappling shortly after course opening.  Of course an investigation of old photos might help solve this question.  And, look at the bunker in relation to the tree now.  That tree grew with a substantial root system under the bunker and pushed up from the logical back slope of the bunker that was there, pushing the back slope down into the green to an odd additional and unlikely intentional hump that would be contrary to the hole design, IMHO.  And, wouldn't the bunker placed that near a tree kill the tree if the tree was there first, and the bunker upset the root system of a fragile young tree if the bunker was constructed next to the existing tree? 

I'm more convinced it is a quirk that grew with the course evolution, unintended by the architect... 

come to think of it, I'll bet >50% of the trees we see in the photo did not exist when originally designed.  The roll of the land and calling it Holliston "Hills" would seem to pay tribute to what appears to be a lovely rolling 'ideal' site for a golf course, without trees!

[Bill Brightly]

Never played the course but from the pictures, it looks like a tremendous improvement to me! No doubt the green will benefit from more sunlight and air, and the turf around the old tree will have real grass.

I am sure the superintendent is not shedding any tears.

[Bill_McBride]

I've never seen the course, but I think the hole will play better now, looks like there is a Redan--like slope that wasn't accessible with the tree there. 

I hope they did a good job grinding the stump!

[JLahrman]

Sounds like a you-had-to-have-played-it situation, just from the picture I think the hole will play better without the tree as well.

[Tom_Doak]

I think all of you guys have some sort of weird psychological issue with trees.

I've played the hole, of course ... we've consulted there for years.  The tree being so close to the green made for some awkward recovery shots from the right, but I never really thought it was either the making of the hole, or the ruination of it.  And I have never thought the hole was intended to be Redan-like, though the green does slope right-to-left as well as back-to-front, and it sloped that way even more in the old days. 

Those of you who would have recommended the tree be cut down would have been laughed at by the members, with good cause.  It was a big, beautiful, old tree and it may well have been there in much smaller form when Donald Ross laid out the course.  (I've never seen a picture so I could say one way or another for sure; but I know that the big tree on the fifth at Crystal Downs was there when MacKenzie designed the hole.)

But, now that's it's gone, it's pretty much impossible to replace.  That's the only bad thing about having a tree which comes into play ... it would be 50 years before a new tree could replace what was there, and most members don't want to wait that long, so there is a knee-jerk reaction for a new bunker or something to replace the tree.

[Sean_A]

I think all of you guys have some sort of weird psychological issue with trees.

I've played the hole, of course ... we've consulted there for years.  The tree being so close to the green made for some awkward recovery shots from the right, but I never really thought it was either the making of the hole, or the ruination of it.  And I have never thought the hole was intended to be Redan-like, though the green does slope right-to-left as well as back-to-front, and it sloped that way even more in the old days. 

Those of you who would have recommended the tree be cut down would have been laughed at by the members, with good cause.  It was a big, beautiful, old tree and it may well have been there in much smaller form when Donald Ross laid out the course.  (I've never seen a picture so I could say one way or another for sure; but I know that the big tree on the fifth at Crystal Downs was there when MacKenzie designed the hole.)

But, now that's it's gone, it's pretty much impossible to replace.  That's the only bad thing about having a tree which comes into play ... it would be 50 years before a new tree could replace what was there, and most members don't want to wait that long, so there is a knee-jerk reaction for a new bunker or something to replace the tree.

Hell Tom, I don't mind the tree, its the bunker which is stupid.  Plus, with a tree that cool, I would take out the other trees on the hole and let the beauty of that sucker really shine.  This is often the biggest mistake I see with trees.  Many clubs are afraid to let great trees stand on their own.  It reminds me of an overcrowded house. 

Ciao

[Wyatt Halliday]

Sorry to see it go John, it seems the storms in that area have been especially brutal this year.

I must ask a Mayhughian question though: With the hole cut right, did you ever take aim at the tree hoping for the ball to drop straight down through the branches? It is a long par three after all

[john_stiles]

There are trees shown on the Ross sketch for the 14th.   The tree was there on day 1 of Ross' visit in 1926.   An early aerial photograph in 1940 shows a very large tree, right of the 14th, where the tree did exist.   The photo shows a very large tree canopy by comparison to the size of the green and other features.

Byron Nelson, on his 50th anniversary of his 1945 golf year, invited a pro-am team from every club where he won an event that year. A Holston team attended.  The Holston fellows were floored when Mr. Nelson asked if the very large shade trees were still at the 14th.  The large oak on the left greenside fell in mid 1990s or so.

Hopefully,    it will improve air flow but the entire area has trees about, which still might stifle adequate air flow.  The hole is still down in a low area with many trees just to the east and south at the nearby Holston River bluff.   With most breezes from the west, and the slight ridge also on right side,  who knows.  They will be a lot more sun (heat) on the green in the afternoon.

Based on the 1940 TVA aerial that I found,     the tree canopy was large at that time compared to the size of the green and other features.

It might affect play for a short period as everyone tries to line-up the tee shot.  It may still be difficult as many shots to the right were stopped and bounced about by tree,  versus certain bogey or worse if the shot was too long, the pitch is downhill from long or right onto the downslope of a difficult green. the bunker shot will be more straight forward but still difficult. Even with tree, there were sometimes opportunity to pitch near the green from bunker.  Though sometimes, it was a pitchout to the back of green.

The hole will STILL be extremely interesting. Trust me.  Danny Green usually laid up short and usually made par.  Anything long or to the right of the tree is probably a bogey.  There is a difficult ridge line ( 3 feet tall) that runs parallel to the green right side that no one has mentioned.  That will be as defining a hole feature as it ever was.   Anything on the right of this greenside ridge will run down a slope that isn't visible, and finish much further away from the green.   A pitch up and over the ridge onto a downslope will probably leave a difficult par.  Don't ask me how I know.

Hopefully, knee-jerks will be few. The hole will be fine and remain very difficult.

[Bill Brightly]

Tom, have you designed a par 3 with a tree positioned like that?

I really wish I had played the hole so I could comment with more information. (But the pictures are all I have to go by.)

I think the view that a tree like that should not be such a dominant feature is not "weird" at all.  My guess is that a solid percentage of golfers feel the same way. Especially those who care about turf quality on and near a green. I just really dislike par threes that force a certain shot pattern due to a tree. I  have less of a problem with such trees on par 4's and 5's because I have a chance to play to a spot for my approach, or deal with the tree if I fail.

I have no doubt that a REALLY large percentage of the membership would never want to cut the tree down because it has always been there. (Probably half of all members dont want ANY trees cut down...) But that does not mean that it is a better hole with the tree, just much harder.

John Stiles,

You can't argue with an aerial photograph...any chance you can post it? I am fascinated that Ross would build a trap behind a tree...

[Keith Williams]

That really is the loss of a great tree.

For those who are interested, the Knox County GIS website has digital images of the series of 1935 TVA aerials done over much of the city.  Holston Hills is included and the TVA image clearly show the tree and what appears to be the edge of a bunker under the tree canopy.  The TVA images are also beneficial in showing just how well preserved Holston Hills really is.

Keith.

[john_stiles]

Bill,

My 'weird thought' is that the bunker was misplaced at the 14th,  thought too much work to fix,  the old guys messed up, and was left. The tree trunk would have been smaller, albeit still an issue.

The Ross field sketch shows trees scribbed about the 14th hole.     Holston does not (yet?) have the finished Ross sketches, with typed notes on the hole sketch sidebar, typical mid 1920 work.   Tufts has only the  Ross 'field' sketches in his handwriting.  OTH, the club had a copy of the golf course plan, dated 1926 which Tufts did not.   

See Keith's reply and you can view.    I'll leave it at that.  My best copy of the aerial is framed inside the clubnhouse.

Keith,

So true.    You are correct.   I was thinking of the 1940 oblique aerial, looking east from the general area of the old Weigal farm house.  You can't quite see that one tree in the image as there were many large trees in the area of the 14th.  Although you can see the tulip poplar on 2nd, and also the old hackberry, left fairway on the 17th, which was also lost in this recent late July 2008 storm.

Digital age is great. Sure beats looking through the old TVA records in Chattanooga, finding the old nitrate based negatives were shipped to  Washington, then going through the National Archives, ordering positives to find the best negative, and then figuring out the whole reproduction process,  whew !   Simpler days for photo work are here,  if you can believe any photos these days !