[Craig Sweet]

"So Shivas, what is best way to get to Rock Creek?"

"Fly to Missoula and drive an hour and 15 min.".......

and don't forget to pick me up!!!!  I'll even walk out to the Van Buren Street exit on I-90 and meet you. 

[Kalen Braley]

I'm only 6 hours away by car....

Will buy gas for golf!! 

[Tom_Doak]

If you have your own jet you can land right at Deer Lodge, 10 min. from the first tee.  The runway was expanded a couple of years ago and you can land anything there (unless it's made by Boeing).

Jim F:  Shivas listed four courses which are all rated 10's on the Doak scale, and to me it's pointless to try and break down the order among the four.  Seeing Rock Creek anywhere in that company is awesome and a little silly at the same time.  But, I'll let you know what I think next week ... I am headed there tomorrow morning for five days of golf and some good company! 

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

The idea that Rock Creek is ahead of Ballyneal would be very tough for me to say with limited plays that I have made to date.

Doak did an excellent job at both -- although I see the back-to-back par-3's on Rock Creek's back nine to be merely good -- not outstanding. Ditto the closing hole which is far less in overall quality than one would see with the finale at Sebonack to mention par-5 to par-5 comparisons.

Ballyneal has few clear weaknesses. The site is also much more unpredictable -p at Rock Creek you basically climb uphill -- although in a gentle way -- for a series of holes after the 1st - which I see as a good starting hole but a notch behind what you face with the opener at Ballyneal.

I personally see the collective par-4's at Rock Creek to be some of the finest Doak has ever produced. You don't really have any serious weak ones in the bunch. At Ballyneal -- they are solid in many ways but I would not elevate them to that high of a level.

Frankly, the space between the courses is the same space that existed between Affirmed and Alydar from horse racing lore. If anyone remembers that space was nothing more than a photo finish. Ditto for these two unique and very fun layouts.

[DMoriarty]

Ballyneal vs. Rock Creek is a tough one.  Once were talking about courses of this caliber isn't it largely a matter of personal preference?

Matt, 

When I am looking at these new courses, I always like to ask myself whether the course is important, breaking new ground, or taking golf course design in a new direction.    In this regard, I think it important to remember that Rock Creek is essentially a "mountain course" yet here we are comparing it to some of the best dunesland courses in the country.  A mountain course where we do not feel compelled to qualify our statement with "as mountain courses go."

The 12th and 13th are such different holes, playing different directions, and presenting such different problems; I think they work well back-to-back.   I am surprised you were not more taken with the 13th.  I think it is a blast form any tee.   As for the 12th, I found it to be a refreshing change of pace on the middle of a long stretch of huge holes.   Honest question, and with all due respect, is it possible that you are generally not a fan of short par 3's in general?   I am sure there must be some, but I cannot think of any 130 to 150 yard (pitching wedge for you probably!) par threes about which you  have raved.   Are there many on newer courses?

You've played many more courses than me so please correct me if I am wrong, but to me it seems like the short one-shot hole is a bit of a lost art form, at least for holes that require a precise shot without being over the top.   That is one think I really appreciate about holes like Rock Creek's 12th and Rustic Canyon's 8th.

As good as the holes are around it, I cannot imagine ever being disappointed or feeling a let down when I got to the 12th and 13th.  This will probably change, but currently they are my two favorite one-shot holes on the course.   In fact I am really looking forward to playing them again.

A view looking back up the 14th.  A a very cool hole.

[Matt_Ward]

David:

Thanks for the reply.

Couple of quick comments ...

I do really like short par-3 holes but I didn't see the combo of back-to-back at Rock Creek being as superlative as the rest of the holes encountered there. That doesn't mean to say they are botton barrel type holes -- they just don't reach the same level of excitement that the others provide when playing at Rock Creek. Creating 18 bulletproof holes is never an easy assignment no matter how grand or regal the site is.

You ask about short par-3's that I like -- well, the first one encountered at Ballyneal would make my short list. A very cool hole with an array of pin placements that requires superb shot control and placement. Take for example the 11th at Shinnecock -- it's one of the finest holes I have played of that length. Is the 12th at Rock Creek at that leve.. Not quite. What I found so fascinating about Rock Creek is the sheer diversity of all the par-4 holes. They are all well done and require so much thinking and shot execution.

I am glad Doak added a long par-3 because they are too often ignored and the way the hole plays out does allow for the aerial and ground games to go hand in hand.

I concede that you make a fine point that comparing mountain type courses versus dunesland type courses can be a difficult one. No doubt I simply see Rock Creek as a unique and fun golf course -- irrespective of "type" or state location.

Ballyneal and Rock Creek would make for a dyanmic debate on what they both offer. Going to either will not disappoint and I look forward to playing them again when time and opportunity permit.

p.s. David, great picture of the 14th hole -- just a blast to play and the views are first rate no doubt. The tee shot has a certain "window" to place one's initial hit from the tee. Go too far left or right and the greensite can be invisible. I was fortunate to hit a tee shot to the 180-yard mark and see the green but it's still a demanding target because it gives a certain "look" from the fairway area but when I walked up to it the "look" was somewhat different than my mind originally imagined when I finally arrived. Just a great transition hole between the 13th and 15th holes.

One last comment -- the general "pacing" of Rock Creek is sort of like the top flight baseball pitcher. Capable of change of speeds and locations -- always keeping the batter (golfer) off their stride for any sort of predictability. Generally, a major element in any course that aspires to true greatness in my mind.

[Craig Sweet]

David, great photo of #14!  I loved that hole....I hit my drive to the right and was behind that hill on the left of your picture.....a totally blind shot to the green, and if I recall, a 5 iron for me (about 185 yards)....I was to the left of the green and had a very scary chip down the sloping green to the hole...just a wonderful hole!

[Matt_Ward]

Rock Creek has clearly added an element to a part of the country that really was in need of a golf layout that could go miles beyond what was there previously.

I've been to the general area a few times but clearly Rock Creek will add a good more people in the near future to see the course.

I loved a number of holes there but the totality of the par-4's there is what makes the course for me. The par-3 holes are good generally and the par-5's a little less so -- save for the 10th.

As a follow-up to Ballyneal -- Rock Creek is a winner in so many ways. At the same time the two courses provide enough differentiation to indicate to me that Doak and company are fully capable in providing for different interpretations with course design.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt/Shivas/David,

Would you dare venture to give a "Doak Scale" rating to Rock Creek?

I'm sensing from the hyperbole that you guys are all past the 7 range?

[Tom_Doak]

Well I've arrived at Rock Creek and I cannot stay here without calling out Mat Dunmeyer the superintendent.  I was here three months ago this week, and I can't believe how far the course has come in three months.  My associates are all going to be floored when they get here on Saturday and see how quickly the course has matured.  It is in EXCELLENT shape, and it's really tricky to get the ball in the hole with the greens up to speed.

MikeC:  Don't mean to jump in front of the guys you asked, but I think Rock Creek is at least an 8 on the Doak scale.  And it IS my scale.

P.S.  You guys must be very spoiled if the 12th at Rock Creek rates only 4/10.    I guess you would prefer if I built a small green surrounded by bunkers ... but what you have to understand is that you can't just do that and let wild shots wind up in the boulders ... that's why #12 green and the area around it is so wide.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Looking also forward to seeing RCCC this weekend.  Pictures look great Dave!  I played Ballyneal twice for the first time a couple of weeks ago and am interested in contrasting the two courses while BN is fresh on my mind.  Ballyneal was not the best of the Doak courses I have seen (I gave it a 9 behind PacDun and Barn) but the 7th greensite at Ballyneal may be the most naturally beautiful greensite I have seen in golf - ever.  I can imagine the phonecall from Bruce H or Jim U to Tom upon seeing this setting -- "TD, you've got to get your ass out here to see this!".

JC

[Matt_Ward]

Mike C:

For me it's a tough debate between a 9 and 8 number. I didn't like the closing hole and sometimes the last hole you play can sway the feelings. Nonetheless, the course is a gem and as Tom mentioned the superintendent and his staff have done an excellent job -- the tees, fairways and greens were pristine when I was there.

The par-4's collectively as I have said a few times are all well done. The issue for me is the quality of the par-3's as a group. Let's just say I'll take the political approach and say it's no less than 8.5.

[Matt_Ward]

Shivas:

For a course to be a 9 in my book it needs to be nearly bulletproof in all areas. I gave the extra .5 because the setting for the course is nothing short of spectacular. All in all, Doak is likely right on target with his number. Rock Creek is indeed a thing of beauty and it's a layout that will certainly change the golf landscape for golf in Montana for the years ahead.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt

What number would you give to Ballyneal?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

No less than 8.5 -- but I see the Colorado layout being slightly ahead of Rock Creek. For some it may be the reverse. Ballyneal has few clear weaknesses -- if any. The land, routing and clear diversity of holes and shotmaking challenges is solid through and through.

No knock to Rock Creek -- it's grand stuff but the totality of the par-3 and par-5 holes there is not at the same level as the cumulative effect of the par-4's holes.

Either way -- any visit to either of them will not be disappointed.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt

Thanks

Of courses built in the past decade or two, which courses would you rate higher?

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Frankly, I see Ballyneal as the equal of Sand Hills. Now, I have to add that my last time at Sand Hills was a decade ago and things there have likely changed as a few posters have told me. A return round there is overdue for a current perspective.

The layout in CO w Ballyneal is just really unique and when I saw it the greens were still being worked on for true consistency. No doubt that's likely changed since then. The site is what makes Ballyneal so special. It constantly changes from shot to shot -- the land has just enough pitch to provide memorable situations of the highest order.

As a further FYI -- I have to add I have not played Friar's Head to date and from all the comments I have heard from a great range of people it's likely that layout would also be in the mix.

Personally, I see Sebonack as being an extremely fun and challenging layout and one worthy of more acclaim.

Likely you know my personal feelings about Black Mesa. I just returned from Santa Fe for another round on that gem and I'm always struck by the range of details that Baxter Spann was able to incorporate in that layout. From just the public side of things -- I see the layout there as an absolute gem that never bores or tires me from playing it.

I'd have to think about a few others but the overall listing would be a small one. One additional note -- I have not played Chambers Bay or Erin Hills and both are mentioned by a number of people for being unique. If I had to add another course in the mix with the likes of Ballyneal and Rock Creek it would be The Kingsley Club -- I was really impressed w what Mike DeVries did there. How it's not rated much, much higher completely astounds me.

[Craig Sweet]

Matt, how would you compare the green complexes at Rock Creek with those at Ballyneal?

I can't imagine too many places with the number of solid green sites as RCCC.....

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike:

Frankly, I see Ballyneal as the equal of Sand Hills. Now, I have to add that my last time at Sand Hills was a decade ago and things there have likely changed as a few posters have told me. A return round there is overdue for a current perspective.

The layout in CO w Ballyneal is just really unique and when I saw it the greens were still being worked on for true consistency. No doubt that's likely changed since then. The site is what makes Ballyneal so special. It constantly changes from shot to shot -- the land has just enough pitch to provide memorable situations of the highest order.

As a further FYI -- I have to add I have not played Friar's Head to date and from all the comments I have heard from a great range of people it's likely that layout would also be in the mix.

Personally, I see Sebonack as being an extremely fun and challenging layout and one worthy of more acclaim.

Likely you know my personal feelings about Black Mesa. I just returned from Santa Fe for another round on that gem and I'm always struck by the range of details that Baxter Spann was able to incorporate in that layout. From just the public side of things -- I see the layout there as an absolute gem that never bores or tires me from playing it.

I'd have to think about a few others but the overall listing would be a small one. One additional note -- I have not played Chambers Bay or Erin Hills and both are mentioned by a number of people for being unique. If I had to add another course in the mix with the likes of Ballyneal and Rock Creek it would be The Kingsley Club -- I was really impressed w what Mike DeVries did there. How it's not rated much, much higher completely astounds me.

Matt,

Thanks...I appreciate your perspective and your frankness.   

I did get to visit Kingsley again this summer and I completely agree with you there.

I am furthermore very jealous of your travels. 

I do need to get to Colorado next summer, without question.

[Adam Clayman]

Mike come in the spring. Mid May is ideal.

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike come in the spring. Mid May is ideal.

Adam,

Thanks...what is the latter part of June like?

Shivas,

I would agree that Kingsley doesn't get into the Top 5 but it's pretty close to getting into the Top 10.

[Adam Clayman]

This year the latter part of June was similar to last years latter May. But, historically June could be hot already. It's not that big of a concern because an early tee time will escape the heat. So, the ideal itinerary is to play early, and late, in the same day leaving the middle of the day for relaxation. The real bonus is seeing the course in low light from opposite directions. Also, hearing the coyotes wake up as you tee off 18 is a spine chilling feeling.

A little tincture of benzoine would also be a good idea for those whose feet are not accustomed to walking that much.

[Craig Sweet]

I'm not sure how long they have been up, but there's some new pictures of Rock Creek on their web site from the spring of 08....some different views of most of the holes.

[Mike_Cirba]

Matt:  if Ballyneal and RC don't garner 9s from you (and presumably Sand Hills doesn't either, if it's the same as Ballyneal in your eyes), can you list a few of your 9s and 10s, please - for perspective's sake?

Yeah, Shivas...I think that's what I was sort of trying to ask as well.

I do understand and appreciate Matt's opinions...I just want to see where he compares and contrasts at that high level.

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

Good question.

Rock Creek was in IMPECCABLE shape when I played it. Kudos to the superintendent and staff. The contours blend gently from one area to the next. The 2nd hole is just one quick example that comes to mind with its classic right tier area -- the place where the pin was when I played it the day I was there.

Ballyneal is a bit more bold in a few spots. Not as spirited as what one would see with a few greens at another Doak layout like Lost Dunes but they are a bit easier to read because the falls-offs don't disappear so well as you see at Rock Creek. Making putts of any real length at Rock Creek requires a good deal more in total knowledge of how they break. Doak has disguised their tendencies very well.

Craig, let me point it this way -- Rock Creek is well done with any number of the greensites there. Few modern day courses, the emphasis on the word "few" can even remotely match it --let alone surpass it. I just see Ballyneal as the better of the two -- and I only played Ballyneal when it was in its infancy -- I can only imagine how much better the green surfaces have become since that time.

Shivas / Mike:

The 10's for me in the USA (let's just say off the top of my head) are:

Shinnecock Hills
Oakmont
Pine Valley

There may be a few others I would toss in to the mix. I have not added any foreign layouts because I would need a bit more time to do so on that front. Likely in my golf travels I would be hard pressed to have a listing of ten 10's.

In the modern category for me Ballyneal would be right there with Sand Hills and I don't want to discount a few of the others already mentioned -- like The Kingsley Club and Sebonack. Rock Creek is a first rate layout -- I just can't shake the concern I have with a few of the par-3 holes and the par-5 side -- especially the closer. It reminds me so much of Cypress Point in that the build-up is truly incredible and then you get a so-so concluding hole.

Ballyneal is a 9 for me -- ditto the qualities of Sand Hills although, as I have stated previously, I have not been there in quite some time so that number is a bit dated and would need tobe updated. I see The Kingsley Club in that vein -- just a real gem but likely a tad short of what Ballyneal and Sand Hills are about.

Sebonack would easily be an 8 -- possibly a half point higher. I see the competition between Sebonack and Rock Creek to be very close. Doak did well on both fronts but the Holyoke layout still has the edge because, as I have mentioned previously, there are few noticeable weaknesses that I saw.

I would also place Black Mesa in the 8 category. It never disappoints and candidly I don't feel the need to make return plays with any course unless there was something that really jumped to the top of the page. I think that's what separates a 7 from 8 for me. A 7 course may be extremely well done but I might not be racing out the door to play it again -- get to the level of an 8 and it's worth the trek from Jersey for me to play it whenever the opportunity arises.

As I said I can't comment about Chambers Bay and Erin Hills -- have not played either of them as of yet.

Hope the info provided helps ...

I can likely add a few others courses when time permits me to full think it through.

Mike:

Get to Colorado is soon as you can ... the total golf picture there is one of the best in the USA and the prices (minus the few resort and some ultra private) are very reasonable.

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