[Scott Witter]

Tom D.,

Though it may be 'obvious', I won't make that presumption, but I wondered if the site in general was full of the rocks/boulders we see in the pictures?  If so, how did you handle clearing them (they appear to be well hidden and part of the surrounding landscape) and with what did you cover the hole corridors for irrigation, drainage and grass-growing needs?  It would seem that construction costs would have carried a premium line item with the work required for rock clearing and preparation for grassing.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom D:

I liked both of the short par-4's because they play so differently. The 5th does play uphill and it requires -- from the dead back tees -- a sufficient blast to carry the upslope encountered before getting to the green. Unless the tee were a bit up I'd think the wiser course of action would be to lay-up and have a 100-yard wedge shot to play.

The 15th is very well done -- it follows the long 14th and comes before the superb 16th. Great change of pace hole.

The downhill tee shot gives the player a clear option to go for it. I especially liked the rear left bunker that you don't see -- it can likely catch those shots that do come into the green area with too much velocity. The falls to the sides also make the hole interesting because they protect the player who doesn't go for it and therefore should not be ruled out of the hole because of a lesser amount of distance capable to be hit from the tee.

While I like the 5th -- I see the 15th as the better choice because of the equal nature of the go or no go character.

Ryan:

The great nature of Rock Creek is that it inspires a wide range of plays for any type of player. Power is given an opportunity -- but only rewarded when executed with the highest of precision. I really like the idea that alternate routes were carefully included so that players can use their skills as they see fit and not be locked into a one dimensional aspect. I've played a fair share of Doak courses and the wide variety of par-4's found at Rock Creek is something that really separates itself in my mind from a number of other courses of his I've played to date.

[DMoriarty]

David M:

I'd be interested in your comments on the hole that precedes #7. I found the 6th to be an equally fun hole to play with a wide variety of challenges starting at the tee and then with the inclusion of the "ocean wave" fairway that is a good bit more intense than the photos you posted would suggest.

One other thing -- I mentioned about the 16th hole on another thread. How do you see the qualities of such holes when held together -- including the likes of #11 and any others you wish to throw into the mixture.

Matt,

Both 6 and 16 are terrific.  As are 5 and 15.   Every hole is a unique experience, yet they all fit together nicely.  
One thing I like about both six and seven is that while the monster drive gets the golfer plenty close to the hole, it is sometimes at the cost of visibility.   I wouldn't be surprised if some big hitters lay back just a bit so they can see where they are going on the next one.

David, are you going to profile more holes from Rock Creek?  Hope so...

I want more people to have a chance to experience it before I personally get into hole discussions too much.  I may do some more profiles but we will see how the discussion goes.    I'd hate for anyone to be sick of the place before they get a chance to see it.

[Tom_Doak]

David:

Thanks for that.  I hope more people will actually go see the place.  I'm headed there Thursday and I am looking forward to it as much as any of the courses on Shivas' ridiculous list above ... but only because I have played Rock Creek less than those others!

Scott W:

The rock was EVERYWHERE, from rocks the size of a toaster to rocks the size of Volkswagens.  The natural contours of the ground would have required almost no earthmoving at all, but we made a wild guess of two million dollars to screen and remove the rocks two feet deep over 75 acres, and I think it wound up costing even more than that ... not to mention the added cost of irrigation trenching and drainage.  It was a VERY expensive job.  But there just wasn't a good place to go grab a bunch of topsoil and cover over the rocks, and the topsoil between the rocks in the fairways was actually quite good.

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas,

Your challenge to Matt is intruiging, but inquiring minds want to know where you'd drive the plane, in order, and why?

You have the honors, Dave...let's hear it. 

[Matt_Ward]

Shivas:

If you don't mind fire away first and then I'll respond.

One other question -- of all the Doak layouts you have played where do you rate Rock Creek?

Thanks ...

David M:

Two areas that concerned me at Rock Creek were the back-to-back par-3 holes on the inner half -- good holes but a step or two below the others. And, the finishing hole, while impressive with the Flint Range in the background is a mere bystander when compared to the grandeur of the two holes that precede it.

Your comments ?

[Craig Sweet]

Matt...having played Rock Creek, let me say that the back to back par 3's come right after two very exceptional holes, 10 and 11....

And I think #12 is a very good par 3....

I am in agreement with you on the 18th....it isn't the best par 5 at Rock Creek, and along with the 1st it serves to bookend 16 really good, solid holes....

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

Fair enough.

I just didn't see the 12th as being truly special -- I'm not saying it's bad but just not really unique. The 13th is simply a long par-3 hole -- no doubt the prevailing wind will help on most days ... I did like how the solitary bunker is placed because it appears from the tee as if it's near the front of the green when it's really set a good bit back.

The 18th is simply a make-up hole for the players coming in and I would have hoped for a bit more in that department. No doubt it's possible Doak believed the 18th should be the place where players can secure one last opportunity for glory after having dealt with the likes of the preceding two holes -- most especially the 16th.

By the way -- I did like the 1st -- just enough length to stretch the muscles and the center-placed bunker does cause you think a bit harder on the first swing of the day.

[Tom_Doak]

Matt:

We thought it was important for the 18th hole to play back up alongside the creek.  Unfortunately, there were a bunch of wetlands alongside the creek on the trek back up from 17, which precluded a more daring use of the creek as a hazard.  The hole does offer birdie chances but I suspect there will be a lot of sixes as well, because of the narrow first landing area and all the contour in the home green.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

I don't see the 18th as a bad hole and frankly a number of courses in the UK try to use the home hole as the way for players to regather themselves for a finishing flourish. I just think the hole does provide a scenic wonder when standing on the tip tees but all in all, when you consider what has come before it, the climax is a bit flat. Not as bas as the 18th at CP -- but rather close for me.

Too bad the 10th hole could not have been the finisher. A grand hole with plenty of shotmaking options and fun to boot.

[Mike_Cirba]

Shivas/Matt,

Are either of you going to answer Shivas's plane question??

C'mon...you're acting like it's a duel and whoever shoots first risks missing and giving their opponent time to aim. 

[Mike_Cirba]

Alright, fine.

Rock Creek
NGLA
PV
Sand Hills
Cypress

You do have cuyones my good man!

I'm not going to let this proposed mythical airplane itinerary go unnoticed....

BUMP   

[Tom Huckaby]

shivas:

Can we ask you this again in a year or two, when hopefully the honeymoon has worn off and you are no longer so proud of being one of a couple dozen people on the planet who have played this course?

Geez, Kavanaugh gave me crap about "Huckie's Cherries"... you make me look like a grizzled cynical veteran....

 

[Mike_Cirba]

Ok...where's Matt Ward with his itinerary?

And Matt...Lakota Canyon is NOT one of the choices. 

[Tom Huckaby]

shivas:

Fine.  My comments remain, and I have calendared the reminder to ask you about this again.

I feel confident the order will change. 

I just don't want to hear about Huckie's Cherries ever again, at least not unless Shivas' Suckups is included in the thought.

 

TH

[Jim Nugent]

Shivas and Matt (and anyone else who wants to answer):  what if you throw Ballyneal into the mix?  What order then? 

[Tom Huckaby]

shivas:

Given that Sand Hills is the greatest course on the planet, you rather just proved my point.   

[Jim Franklin]

So Shivas, what is best way to get to Rock Creek?

[Daryl David]

shivas:

I'll give you my reasoning.  NGLA is fun.  As fun as golf gets.  Or got -- until Rock Creek showed up.  Rock Creek is more fun, IMO.   

As to PV:  having seen a billion pictures and having heard a billion stories, the only reason it's as high as #3 is that I've never played.  And I'm really not all that interested in playing it, to be honest (I generally don't have the same level of burning desire and need to play everything under the sun that some other guys have).   

I think Sand Hills has more fun than Cypress by an eyelash, mostly because (despite the raised greens), it plays linksier and firmer than Cypress.

I'd love to go play any of these, but that's the order...

If fun is your major measure, wait till you play Ballyneal.  I am pretty sure your order will change.

[Daryl David]

So Shivas, what is best way to get to Rock Creek?

Fly to Missoula and drive an hour and 15 min.

[Jim Franklin]

So Shivas, what is best way to get to Rock Creek?

Through Chicago!

A.  Get a plane.

B.  Stop at Chicago Executive.

C.  Pick up your bro-in-law Terry and me.

D.  Fly to Butte.

That's perfect, but we should get Terry's friend to get us a plane. Is Butte better than Missoula?

[Tom Huckaby]

shivas:

Given that Sand Hills is the greatest course on the planet, you rather just proved my point.   

No.

Your point was that my mind would change without the addition of further evidence.

These guys changed their minds after they played something they preferred.

That's 180 degrees different. 

My point was not that your mind would change without the addition of further evidence.  My point was that you are in the honeymoon phase having played this great new course that so few get to see; and that the honeymoon will wear off after awhile.  My point also is that the harder a course is to get to and the fewer people see it, the more powerful is the drug to make one want to praise it.

You and your friends prove my point, ESPECIALLY if you want me to believe they poo-poohed Sand Hills enough such that it was akin to my local muni.

I have no doubt Rock Creek is wonderful - heck, one can see that from pictures.

Just how wonderful, so as to merit this type of gushing?

Well... as one who falls prey to this myself... I can see it when it occurs in others.

You'll calm down. Oh, you'll never admit it on here as you have a pathological need to be make unique, weird esoteric points, but you will eventually admit it to yourself.

TH

[Tom Huckaby]

More or less....
 

[Jim Franklin]

I would be interested in hearing Tom Doak's order of preference of those courses Shivas listed. I understand Rock Creek is his, but I believe he can be open. Plus I would add Ballyneal to the equation.

[Tom Huckaby]

I would be interested in hearing Tom Doak's order of preference of those courses Shivas listed. I understand Rock Creek is his, but I believe he can be open. Plus I would add Ballyneal to the equation.

Jim:  Tom D. stated on one of the other threads that he thought shivas was going a bit overboard about this....

But as long as you have that plane in the air, swing out wide west a bit and pick me up.  As much as I give shivas shit, I know his tastes... and his words are powerful to me.  Just don't tell him I said that.

 

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